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[blahblahblah]

Well... I'm not so sure whether it would be best to call this thread interesting or ridicoulus... Especially since Morrigan was basically a sex tool that the Warden could use to surive in DAO. If the Warden or other Grey Warden companion sleeps with Morrigan, all the Grey Wardens survive. If not, one of the Grey Wardens has to die. That scene was especially disturbing for female wardens who romanced Alistair and I remember Gaider having a dude draw a short comic of it... They were proud of materializing their most important female figure back then so much that they had some guy draw a short comic book about it but now they're suddenly supporting gender equality, feminisim even. Touching, really... In the Witcher you don't have to impregnate anyone or you don't have to send your lover to anyone to survive. Witcher's world is dark and chaotic. There is no absolute good and evil and at some point, profits and primitive desires may overcome the morals for the most in the Witcher. That was like this in the first Witcher game and it is like this in the last Witcher game as well. In DAO, woman = a tool to impregnate. In DAI, a woman = a brilliant, amazing, strong, independent unicorn. What a contrast. This is nothing more than a failed move for PR for me.

 

Even though I love Dragon Age: Origins more than The Witcher, with all the respect I have for the writers I must say I don't believe the Disney-like world of DAI really reflects the opinions of the writers accurately, especially considering the same people wrote the DAO as well... Sugarcoating our world's problems or your own personal opinions will not change anything.

So you're saying that female characters are terrible and treated more as a sex tool than in the Witcher. LOL, i think you play a wrong game.

[In Exile]

Counter point: It's basically how Kratos is shown in God of war.

 

Kratos isn't usually slathered in baby oil and wearing nothing but a towel. I'm just saying, if you're about to go on about "hetereosexual male perspectives", maybe think through the idea of your literal poster-boy being a ripped, half-naked dude slathered in baby oil and wearing nothing but a towel. 

 

[TheJiveDJ]

I appreciate Bioware's take more. Playing Witcher to me is mostly frustrating on how it deals with women. I'm much happea with story where women are as good as men and can be heroes too than having to deals with IRL sexism on a game too. Though from ME from Bioware has it too and I'd prefered none.

Yeah lets just ignore the fact that the most powerful characters in Witcher lore are female (sorceresses). Let's also ignore the fact that Geralt spends most of the game as Yennefer's lapdog, getting ordered around. Also, Ciri the demigod who can wipe out an entire legion with a thought. But yeah, yeah, women in the Witcher just straight up suck. Can't help themselves. Oh, the poor things.

[Evamitchelle]

Well... I'm not so sure whether it would be best to call this thread interesting or ridicoulus... Especially since Morrigan was basically a sex tool that the Warden could use to surive in DAO. If the Warden or other Grey Warden companion sleeps with Morrigan, all the Grey Wardens survive. If not, one of the Grey Wardens has to die. That scene was especially disturbing for female wardens who romanced Alistair and I remember Gaider having a dude draw a short comic of it... They were proud of materializing their most important female figure back then so much that they had some guy draw a short comic book about it but now they're suddenly supporting gender equality, feminisim even. Touching, really... In the Witcher you don't have to impregnate anyone or you don't have to send your lover to anyone to survive. Witcher's world is dark and chaotic. There is no absolute good and evil and at some point, profits and primitive desires may overcome the morals for the most in the Witcher. That was like this in the first Witcher game and it is like this in the last Witcher game as well. In DAO, woman = a tool to impregnate. In DAI, a woman = a brilliant, amazing, strong, independent unicorn. What a contrast. This is nothing more than a failed move for PR for me.

 

Small correction but the person who drew that comic is very much not a dude. Aimo is the one who drew that comic.

[TheJiveDJ]

Indeed. The fact that the women in Dragon Age are just as flawed as the men is what makes them awesome.

 

Of course, the instant they display flaws, some people start calling them weak or bitchy. A perfect demonstration of how women (including the fictional ones) can't win.

Maybe they aren't supposed to "win". Maybe people like who they like, and dislike who they dislike? Why is that so hard to swallow? Stereotypes and double standards exist because differences exist. That will never not be the case. Big muscled up dudes get stereotyped as lumbering brutes with the IQ of ant (e.g. James from ME3). Scrawny and soft spoken men get stereotyped as weaklings that lack confidence. Rude or nasty men may be called a bastard or a-hole. Rude or nasty women may be called bitchy; same frikin' difference except that when it happens to a woman it's ALWAYS worse for some reason. Hows that for a double standard?

[Aren]

Small correction but the person who drew that comic is very much not a dude. Aimo is the one who drew that comic.

I have never understood the connection between that comic and the scene in the game,sure Morrigan may be conflicted but in the game she doesn't give to me the impression that she think that the ritual is a bad idea,quite the contrary in fact,she is ready to propose to you the deal even with a Warden at -100 approval,

(the last person that she would wish to save)

sorry but understand Gaider it's beyond my possibilities.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I have never understood the connection between that comic and the scene in the game,sure Morrigan may be conflicted but in the game she doesn't give to me the impression that she think that the ritual is a bad idea,quite the contrary in fact,she is ready to propose to you the deal even with a Warden at -100 approval,

(the last person that she would wish to save)

sorry but understand Gaider it's beyond my possibilities.

Morrigan still offers the Dark Ritual because her goal is to preserve the soul of Urthemiel. So even if she hates the Wardens, she'll offer it not for them but for her. 

[leaguer of one]

Kratos isn't usually slathered in baby oil and wearing nothing but a towel. I'm just saying, if you're about to go on about "hetereosexual male perspectives", maybe think through the idea of your literal poster-boy being a ripped, half-naked dude slathered in baby oil and wearing nothing but a towel. 

 

1. that's water.

2. He's topless all the time

[Aren]

Morrigan still offers the Dark Ritual because her goal is to preserve the soul of Urthemiel. So even if she hates the Wardens, she'll offer it not for them but for her. 

this is way i do not understand the comic,she seem to be a different character there.

[leaguer of one]

1) It doesn't matter if most femshep fans or male or female. My point remains that FemShep is a female protagonist who can be sexy without resorting to the typical videogame standard of what a sexy female hero should be. Perhaps this was a draw to many of the femshep male fans.

 

2) I never said that Femshp is a feminst icon, only that FemShep has a strong following within BSN and around the net.

 

---------------

To add to my opinion that Bioware games appeals to the female/LGBT crowd over CDPR games, here is a quote from a female gamer who commented on that KOTAKU story:

I'm just making a counter point. I'm not saying it's not true. But Witcher is as male orientated as you pointed out. True, it barly has a female lead but it not that it does not have a strong female cast. Yes, the main female cast do look like a series of dolls, but outside of femshep, so does ME female cast. Da female cast is far more well rounded in looks and diversity.

[blahblahblah]

this is way i do not understand the comic,she seem to be a different character there.

That comic is canon whether you like it or not. David Gaider collaborated in that comic so everything Morrigan does in the comic is part of her character or just ignore it, you hate her anyway.

[Urzon]

Yeah lets just ignore the fact that the most powerful characters in Witcher lore are female (sorceresses). Let's also ignore the fact that Geralt spends most of the game as Yennefer's lapdog, getting ordered around. Also, Ciri the demigod who can wipe out an entire legion with a thought. But yeah, yeah, women in the Witcher just straight up suck. Can't help themselves. Oh, the poor things.

I doubt Panda is ignoring the characters like the sorceresses, Yennefer, or Ciri. I think his problem, one that is also shared with other gamers as well, is that they are a part of the lone few examples of strong female characters in TW series with the vast majority of the rest of the gender suffering the ill fate of background rape, assault, sexual objectification, and/or all around general oppression.

The atmosphere of TW is suppose to be "dark, gritty, and realistic", but the shiny few examples doesn't always counter out all the negative examples when it comes to a gamer's take away perception of the game.

[SolNebula]

I doubt Panda is ignoring the characters like the sorceresses, Yennefer, or Ciri. I think his problem, one that is also shared with other gamers as well, is that they are a part of the lone few examples of strong female characters in TW series with the vast majority of the rest of the gender suffering the ill fate of background rape, assault, sexual objectification, and/or all around general oppression.

The atmosphere of TW is suppose to be "dark, gritty, and realistic", but the shiny few examples doesn't always counter out all the negative examples when it comes to a gamer's take away perception of the game.

 

But that's how a realistic world is. There is good and bad mixed together, Panda wants a rainbow world where gender and race is not an issue. While humanity is different. Those things ARE issues in every human-based society.

[Dieb]

B*tches, man.

 

Right guys?

 

 

P.S.: Dear moderators, this is an attempt at satirical cynicism. Its message is important enough to risk being prremptively banned, however, so my statement stands.

[Urzon]

But that's how a realistic world is. There is good and bad mixed together, Panda wants a rainbow world where gender and race is not an issue. While humanity is different. Those things ARE issues in every human-based society.

There is a big difference between wanting a "rainbow world" and just wanting a world where the dark inflictions of humanity are still there just not thrown in your face constantly.

A "realistic" world in a totally fictional setting is only as realistic as the creators want it to be. People can create a world where sex, rape, violence, oppression, and debauchery is present in the society, but it doesn't need to be constantly shown to the players to enforce that it's "real". Having us listen to Random Guy#3 tell his friends in the pub how he forced himself on the farmer's daughter for fun? Sad, but it helps flesh out the background of the culture. Having the player run around and find/help battered and abused woman#12? The idea of "gritty and real" is losing its luster, and that battered woman is just becoming just another generic NPC to the player.

There is a fine line between "dark, gritty, and realistic" and "WOOHOO!!! Look at us being dark, gritty, and realistic!" Exaggerate the idea to much and it becomes a caricature of itself.

[Medhia_Nox]

Concerning the quoted piece by the OP.

 

Arguing changes almost nothing.  Bigots will solidify in their bigotry.  They're not interested in discussing social injustices about people they don't care about.  They prefer a Witcher 3 world because it seems right to them.  It seems like that's how the world should be.  The same goes for the social justice warriors - a reasonable complaint becomes a culture of offense where not a single action can be done without critique.  Both sides are ignorant and self-absorbed - and showing a brutal world doesn't create dialogue just complaint.

 

Does anyone, ever once, question in the Witcher series whether they're all really as F-ed up as they are?  If not, then there's no commentary going on.

 

While depictions aren't perfect for said characters (women, trans, gays, etc. etc) - they're at their infancy in video games.  Portraying said people as average and not at all unique and alien is what changes minds.  When bigots truly understand that others are "almost just like them" it becomes harder for them to paint a vicious image.  THAT challenges their world view.  Not a bunch of loud and proud queens screaming at them.  (If your first response is to get offended by what I just wrote - see first paragraph)

 

This isn't just a "social minority issue" either - literally every divisive trait in humans (which is practically every trait in humans) is treated in this fashion.  Arguing about it results in nothing but both sides standing their ground.  It's only when you find common ground that change happens.

 

Gritty games have their place - but as avenues of social change?  Hardly. 

[Seraphim24]

Ok this is kind rant like. It seems to me all this SJW is plagued by the same problem which is that no one even agrees on what a powerful person or correct thing even is, progressiveness is increasingly defined in terms of willingness to accept what were conventionally considered to be "bad things" like I don't know obesity or something.

 

Like what is Nathan Grayson's definition of what would be a strong character anyway? What is the typical poster in this thread's version? No one knows. How can you assess the portrayal without defining anything? The fact that she can kill a lot of people? The fact that a man screws her or doesn't screw her? The fact that they're "objectified" (such a potent term)

 

Moreover what makes women inherently so much more important than men anyway? Shouldn't this be about the portrayal of women and men in games? Are men a lesser species something?

 

It just seems like a pile of nonsense to me because no one is aggressively taking a stand on pretty critical points (what is good and bad anyway)

[SnakeCode]

Bs. Totally,bs. This is a woman who tried to reap from the gains of her husband while betraying his trust. This woman clearly wanted to move on but stayed with the guy for the benefits and wealth. Which is a crap thing to do. The guy was away at war for year and she could of left at anytime with her lover to the point he would not find her....Yet she stayed. Sorry, but that's a pretty shitty thing to do.

 

That equally as crappy in my book.

 

She also mentally abused him. She was the one who in happier times used to patch him up after battle and pick him up when he was at his lowest, like after a defeat. You can only imagine what the horrors of war are like, especially in defeat, seeing friends dying, atrocities being commited amongst other things. The Baron says to Geralt himself that Anna knew exactly where to prod to make him hurt, and knew which buttons to press to make him angry, trying to get a (violent) reaction out of him. That is called mental abuse.

 

Nobody has said that the Baron is innocent or even a person who is misunderstood or worthy of empathy. The guy is a scumbag. The point is that it's ridiculously biased and ignorant of the facts to claim that the abuse is one sided. The game actually tells us otherwise. To portray Anna as a blameless victim is just plain wrong, she most certainly is a victim, but she isn't blameless by any stretch of the imagination. She is an abuser herself. Whether they're equally bad or not isn't the point (for the record I think the Baron is worse) the point is that the relationship was messed up all around, with the abuse going both ways.

[WildOrchid]

She also mentally abused him. She was the one who in happier times used to patch him up after battle and pick him up when he was at his lowest, like after a defeat. You can only imagine what the horrors of war are like, especially in defeat, seeing friends dying, atrocities being commited amongst other things. The Baron says to Geralt himself that Anna knew exactly where to prod to make him hurt, and knew which buttons to press to make him angry, trying to get a (violent) reaction out of him. That is called mental abuse.

 

Nobody has said that the Baron is innocent or even a person who is misunderstood or worthy of empathy. The guy is a scumbag. The point is that it's ridiculously biased and ignorant of the facts to claim that the abuse is one sided. The game actually tells us otherwise. To portray Anna as a blameless victim is just plain wrong, she most certainly is a victim, but she isn't blameless by any stretch of the imagination. She is an abuser herself. Whether they're equally bad or not isn't the point (for the record I think the Baron is worse) the point is that the relationship was messed up all around, with the abuse going both ways.

 

That being said, the Baron's story had to be the most touching for me. Damn..

[Seraphim24]

She also mentally abused him. She was the one who in happier times used to patch him up after battle and pick him up when he was at his lowest, like after a defeat. You can only imagine what the horrors of war are like, especially in defeat, seeing friends dying, atrocities being commited amongst other things. The Baron says to Geralt himself that Anna knew exactly where to prod to make him hurt, and knew which buttons to press to make him angry, trying to get a (violent) reaction out of him. That is called mental abuse.

 

Nobody has said that the Baron is innocent or even a person who is misunderstood or worthy of empathy. The guy is a scumbag. The point is that it's ridiculously biased and ignorant of the facts to claim that the abuse is one sided. The game actually tells us otherwise. To portray Anna as a blameless victim is just plain wrong, she most certainly is a victim, but she isn't blameless by any stretch of the imagination. She is an abuser herself. Whether they're equally bad or not isn't the point (for the record I think the Baron is worse) the point is that the relationship was messed up all around, with the abuse going both ways.

 

Well the ultimate point is that you forgive everyone, this is pretty much the answer to every RPG riddle like this.

[Evamitchelle]

Ok this is kind rant like. It seems to me all this SJW is plagued by the same problem which is that no one even agrees on what a powerful person or correct thing even is, progressiveness is increasingly defined in terms of willingness to accept what were conventionally considered to be "bad things" like I don't know obesity or something.

 

Like what is Nathan Grayson's definition of what would be a strong character anyway? What is the typical poster in this thread's version? No one knows. How can you assess the portrayal without defining anything? The fact that she can kill a lot of people? The fact that a man screws her or doesn't screw her? The fact that they're "objectified" (such a potent term)

 

Moreover what makes women inherently so much more important than men anyway? Shouldn't this be about the portrayal of women and men in games? Are men a lesser species something?

 

It just seems like a pile of nonsense to me because no one is aggressively taking a stand on pretty critical points (what is good and bad anyway)

 

What most people ask for when they want "strong female characters" is actually pretty simple: characters who feel like they could be actual women instead of a collection of stereotypes, not sexualized to an absurd degree and who have some degree of agency. There are bunch of characters that people generally agree on as being good female characters, so it's not exactly an unreachable goal: FemShep, Jade from Beyond Good & Evil, Ellie from The Last of Us, Clementine from The Walking Dead etc. 

[Majestic Jazz]

What most people ask for when they want "strong female characters" is actually pretty simple: characters who feel like they could be actual women instead of a collection of stereotypes, not sexualized to an absurd degree and who have some degree of agency. There are bunch of characters that people generally agree on as being good female characters, so it's not exactly an unreachable goal: FemShep, Jade from Beyond Good & Evil, Ellie from The Last of Us, Clementine from The Walking Dead etc. 

 

My counter argument to that is there are also a LOT of male characters in videogames that are sexualized and yet where is the outrage for that? Why is it when a female is shown wearing revealing clevage it is seen as some sort of social justice crime against women but yet when men in videogames are portrayed by their exaggerated physical appearance nobody comes out and says "Why can't we have strong male characters who aren't uber muscle bound but strong because they are smart and confident?"

 

I think someone mentioned it above about double-standards between men and women. I mean it is embedded in our society. They go both ways. A male supervisor leads with stern attitudes and he is considered a strong leader; a female supervisor leads with stern attitudes and she is considered B****y.

 

A female can burst out crying in public over something menial and people men/women would generally feel for her; a male can burst out crying in public over something menial and people would literally laugh at the guy and consider him weak and that he needs to "man up" and stop crying. Again there are many variances but generally when a male cries, socially that is considered "weak" unless it is something related to family.

 

NFL player Adrian Peterson received A LOT of media backlash and public backlash after reports came out that he spanked his kid using a lamp wire or some sort. He was even suspended from his team. Yet US Soccer star Hope Solo is reported to have beat up her little sister and getting DUIs and yet she is currently playing for the US Female World Cup soccer team with little to no media backlash. Many people say that if a male athlete did what Hope Solo did, they would NOT be playing in the World Cup but yet because society generally puts greater emphasis on domestic abuse committed by men, Hope Solo is able to squeeze through the cracks unnoticed. 

 

And please don't let me bring up the statistics of the US Court system when it comes to awarding child custody to the mother or when it comes to women getting a huge chunk of the husband's assets after divorce. Not to say that men don't come out victors, but please, be honest, women are generally favored more in the court system when it comes to issues such as this. Yet where are the feminist "Oh we want equality" men/women at when it comes to issues like this? 

[Andraste_Reborn]

The patriarchy hurts men too. Just not as much as it hurts women.

[Joseph Warrick]

TIL cheating on your husband is just as bad as murder.
 

My counter argument to that is there are also a LOT of male characters in videogames that are sexualized and yet where is the outrage for that? Why is it when a female is shown wearing revealing clevage it is seen as some sort of social justice crime against women but yet when men in videogames are portrayed by their exaggerated physical appearance nobody comes out and says "Why can't we have strong male characters who aren't uber muscle bound but strong because they are smart and confident?"

You do it. Women have their own problems. You don't need to be taken care of like you're a little boy. Get inspiration from women who have actually gotten things done. I'm sure you know plenty.

[SnakeCode]

What most people ask for when they want "strong female characters" is actually pretty simple: characters who feel like they could be actual women instead of a collection of stereotypes, not sexualized to an absurd degree and who have some degree of agency. There are bunch of characters that people generally agree on as being good female characters, so it's not exactly an unreachable goal: FemShep, Jade from Beyond Good & Evil, Ellie from The Last of Us, Clementine from The Walking Dead etc. 

 

Here's where the lines get blurred though, does a woman being good looking and showing cleavage prevent her from being a strong character? I would argue that no, it doesn't. If anything TW3 is resounding proof of this. Characters like Yen, Triss, Ciri are all remarkably strong and have total agency. They are however, sexualised, so it's not an either/or thing.

 

The same goes for male characters as well.