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[blahblahblah]

[quote name="Rocknife" post="19272410" timestamp="1434295951"]I did not say female characters are treated better in one game than another, if that's what you understand then I think you read the wrong post. I said, it is very obvious that DAI's utopic strong and independend unicorn women theme does not reflect the view of the writers honestly. I don't think it's anything more than a way to try to make the game sell more, to make more profit, considering the very same writers were proud of materializing the most important female character  so much that they had someone draw a comic about it. What I was saying in short is this, in case you still fail to understand; In the first, second and the third witcher games, the world is still same for the women, homosexuals and transgenders. In DAO and DAI, however, the world and the veiw of the writers regarding women and homosexuals are worlds aparts. In DAO, Morrigan was basically a sex toy that the warden could "use" to make sure all the wardens survive. In DAI, however, women are not sex toys, they do not "require" a man for anything unlike Morrigan needed so desparately, and women are strong, independant, brilliant, amazing unicorns. There's no honesty in it, it is obviously just a marketing strategy, let's not kid ourselves.
As I have said before, you don't have any freaking idea about anything what you have said. If you believe Morrigan is a sex toy then everyone in DAO is such or just biased towards the Witcher.

[Majestic Jazz]

Why do you believe women in TW3 Are shown as sex objects?

 

I don't, I am just accepting that many gamers do. I can't change their minds so if that is what they want to believe then okay, women in TW3 are shown as sex objects. Opinions are opinions. 

[The Elder King]

I don't, I am just accepting that many gamers do.

Understood.

[andy6915]

Can you read Spanish? It exists in Spain at least. Average of 24% wage gap for equal work according to the latest review. But maybe America is a feminist utopia these days.

 

Oh for goodness sakes, not this nonsense again! Watch this video, and never spout that myth again. Yes it's half an hour, and yes it's worth watching anyway.

 

[Evamitchelle]

My counter argument to that is there are also a LOT of male characters in videogames that are sexualized and yet where is the outrage for that? Why is it when a female is shown wearing revealing clevage it is seen as some sort of social justice crime against women but yet when men in videogames are portrayed by their exaggerated physical appearance nobody comes out and says "Why can't we have strong male characters who aren't uber muscle bound but strong because they are smart and confident?"

 

 

Well a lot of feminists criticizing female characters in video games are also asking for more variety in male protagonists, aka having main characters who are not only straight brown-haired white guys who are great at killing and suck at emotions. But outside of protagonists I generally see a lot more variety in the way male characters are portrayed. For example until ME3 the only female aliens we see are the asari, who are all conventionally attractive, while among the male aliens you have krogans, salarians, turians, volus, hanar, vorcha, batarians etc. who are very much not conventionally attractive (not going into the details of alien gender, but even though the asari are not technically women, they are still basically portrayed as such). 

 

Here's where the lines get blurred though, does a woman being good looking and showing cleavage prevent her from being a strong character? I would argue that no, it doesn't. If anything TW3 is resounding proof of this. Characters like Yen, Triss, Ciri are all remarkably strong and have total agency. They are however, sexualised, so it's not an either/or thing.

 

The same goes for male characters as well.

 

I wouldn't say that making a female character sexy prevents her from being a strong character. It becomes a problem when it's taken to an absurd degree, or when it's the only thing that female characters are allowed to be. Like you can have someone like Isabela in the game but you should also be able to have someone like Aveline. I'd say the Borderlands franchise is also a pretty good example: you have characters like Moxxi, but alongside her you have Athena and Ellie and Fiona. 

 

As for what I'd consider an "absurd" degree of sexualization: I'm fine with Triss' outfits in 2&3 (I've even used the ported version on one of my characters in DAO), but her outfits in 1 are not only atrociously ugly they are also completely ridiculous. 

[midnight tea]

And men aren't hyper-sexualized? Why is it that most male heros have to have rock solid bodies with 6-packs and with grizzly voices? How many skinny men with their ribcages showing do you see portrayed as strong male heros to be desired by women? How many 50 year old fat men do you see with receding hairlines do you see being portrayed as strong heros to be desired by women? This is my point that you keep ignoring.

 

People act like male videogame characters are shown as realistic portrayals of typical males in society and that it is ONLY female characters that are given the sexualized treatment. Men are exaggerated sexually so if women want equality, then women characters are fair game. 

 

It's like you didn't read my comment at all.... I mean, the same question could be posed for women. Why is it that most female heros have to have smooth, curvy bodies with big boobs and soothing, sexy voice? How many chubby or un-curvy woman do you see portrayed as heroines to be desired by males? (also LOL - are you going to sit there and claim that games that target male audience, and which predominantly have muscled/fit male protagonists sexualize men for females????)

Heck, do you even SEE 50 year old women in game frequently?

 

Really, can't you see the massive flaw in your thinking? You say that males are sexualized just because they have great, fit bodies. And somehow women aren't even more sexualized, even though on top of their great, fit bodies they additionally have to wear revealing clothing, underline their sex-appeal with make-up or by being seductive??? It's another layer of sexy males just don't have to deal with on a level females do.

[Joseph Warrick]

Oh for goodness sakes, not this nonsense again! Watch this video, and never spout that myth again. Yes it's half an hour, and yes it's worth watching anyway.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess you can't read Spanish.

[SnakeCode]

I wouldn't say that making a female character sexy prevents her from being a strong character. It becomes a problem when it's taken to an absurd degree, or when it's the only thing that female characters are allowed to be. Like you can have someone like Isabela in the game but you should also be able to have someone like Aveline. I'd say the Borderlands franchise is also a pretty good example: you have characters like Moxxi, but alongside her you have Athena and Ellie and Fiona. 

 

As for what I'd consider an "absurd" degree of sexualization: I'm fine with Triss' outfits in 2&3 (I've even used the ported version on one of my characters in DAO), but her outfits in 1 are not only atrociously ugly they are also completely ridiculous. 

 

I would agree with that, depending on the game. It doesn't bother me in a series like say, Final Fantasy where everyone looks ridiculous.

[duckley]

Equality does not negate same-different. I expect men and women to be equal and different -  different in perspective, in behavior, in biological functioning. I am an older feminist and the portrayal of women and men,  for that matter, in the Witcher, does not bother me in the least:

 

Firstly - I am playing a fantasy game - I expect that the world created will  have elements that I find are wonderful and elements that make me cringe.

 

Secondly men and women are portrayed in that game as terrific and as horrible as men and women can be.

 

Thirdly, it portrays middle ages eastern European culture pretty much as I would imagine it to be.

 

As a woman I am confident in myself and in my gender - so really,  I just want to play a game, look at some great looking men and women  and have fun. IRL - I support vulnerable people - mostly women and children - so that's another matter.

[Majestic Jazz]

Really, can't you see the massive flaw in your thinking? You say that males are sexualized just because they have great, fit bodies. And somehow women aren't even more sexualized, even though on top of their great, fit bodies they additionally have to wear revealing clothing, underline their sex-appeal with make-up or by being seductive??? It's another layer of sexy males just don't have to deal with on a level females do.

 

You are trying to throw in the makeup/lipstick point as if this makes women even MORE subject to being oversexualized which is just not making sense. Women by default where lipstick in wear makeup whereas most men don't. Hell, there is an entire BILLION dollar industry aimed at female beauty/hair products.

 

And yes, you do have a point about the skimpy clothing that many female videogame characters wear, I will give you that as I don't see many male videogame heros running around in speedos saving the day. You have a point there.

 

However I stick to my main argument that many (not all) but many women like to argue for equality ONLY when it is to their benefit.

 

A year ago I was talking with a few college classmates about there should be a rule that makes women have to sign up for selective service in the case a wartime draft is initiated and they all looked at like I was crazy. Mind you these same group of women talk about how society treats women differently than men. Funny, I presented them with a way to be equal to men and they shot it down. Why is that? Not to say that all women would, but MANY do and many of them are the same ones who would cry for equality. This is my argument that nobody can seem to counter because they know I am right. 

[Evamitchelle]

 

Haha, so those female characters are not actual women? That is such a nice thing to say to someone's idea for a female character.. not an actual woman.

 

I'm sorry, but that is just so freaking backwards. Those might not be my favorite characters a lot of the time but frankly they often have qualities the likes of Jade, Ellie, and Clementine don't possess.

 

Anyway people also don't generally agree at all on what constitutes good female characters, I for one can't stand any of the TWD characters.

 

Well no, fictional female characters are not actual women, because they're fictional. I didn't realize that was such an outrageous thing to say. You've never seen a character and thought "a real person would never actually say/do something like that" ? It's a pretty common complaint really, a recent example would be the teenager-speak in Life is Strange, which has been criticized for sounding fake.

 

And yes, generally speaking, people consider Ellie, Clem, Jade etc. to be good (female) characters. The fact that you don't personally like them doesn't really change that.  

 

 

I would agree with that, depending on the game. It doesn't bother me in a series like say, Final Fantasy where everyone looks ridiculous.

 

Equal-opportunity ridiculousness doesn't bother me either. 

[Majestic Jazz]

Equality does not negate same-different. I expect men and women to be equal and different -  different in perspective, in behavior, in biological functioning. I am an older feminist and the portrayal of women and men,  for that matter, in the Witcher, does not bother me in the least:

 

Firstly - I am playing a fantasy game - I expect that the world created will  have elements that I find are wonderful and elements that make me cringe.

 

Secondly men and women are portrayed in that game as terrific and as horrible as men and women can be.

 

Thirdly, it portrays middle ages eastern European culture pretty much as I would imagine it to be.

 

As a woman I am confident in myself and in my gender - so really,  I just want to play a game, look at some great looking men and women  and have fun. IRL - I support vulnerable people - mostly women and children - so that's another matter.

 

I applaud you. Only if some of the younger/new school feminist could learn from your logic. 

[Seraphim24]

As a woman I am confident in myself and in my gender - so really,  I just want to play a game, look at some great looking men and women  and have fun.

 

I think that's all any of us want, I can't fathom why people have tried to make things so complicated.

 

Well no, fictional female characters are not actual women, because they're fictional. I didn't realize that was such an outrageous thing to say. You've never seen a character and thought "a real person would never actually say/do something like that" ? It's a pretty common complaint really, a recent example would be the teenager-speak in Life is Strange, which has been criticized for sounding fake.

 

And yes, generally speaking, people consider Ellie, Clem, Jade etc. to be good (female) characters. The fact that you don't personally like them doesn't really change that.  

 

This is pretty much all argumentum ad populum (a handy term I just came across).

 

As for Life is Strange I definitely think there are people that try to be "real" and it comes off as horribly off, but that in itself is a real thing, the real thing of being awkward or confused in common conversation.

[Evamitchelle]

This is pretty much all argumentum ad populum (a handy term I just came across).

 

As for Life is Strange I definitely think there are people that try to be "real" and it comes off as horribly off, but that in itself is a real thing, the real thing of being awkward or confused in common conversation.

 

I don't see how this applies here. It's not like we're discussing the greatest movies of all time and I argue that Avatar is that movie because it has the highest box-office of all time (discounting inflation). You said people can't agree on what makes a good female character, I argued that on some characters they actually do. Just because some of them are controversial (like Bayonetta) doesn't mean that all of them are. Any time a best female character list pops up you're pretty much guaranteed to see FemShep or Jade or Ellie show up. 

 

As for Life is Strange I personally don't mind the dialogue. I think the characters sound appropriately corny. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@andy6915:  Did you just counter an argument you didn't like with an argument you do like?   What exactly makes your cherry picked internet reality better than the article in Spanish that is likely biased and not entirely truthful?  

 

That fact that people have an issue either way with feminism is, ultimately, a personal lie (otherwise known as opinion).  

 

Having an issue with feminism is, by its nature, a form of bigotry - though likely not against feminism itself, but against "the other having a problem with their station".  It's usually paraded around by people who've never experienced a single moment of real prejudice in their lives and are outraged that these "others" because, well - what else would they have to be outraged by?  They too - feel as a minority because they are told they can't be upset about "something" - so they choose to hate anyone that claims to be searching for representation. 

 

Honestly - why anyone would care about the opinion of such a person is beyond me.  They're ignorant and largely irrelevant to a conversation about equality of any sort.  They are, after all, the goal of what most minorities are trying to be "equal" to.  I don't consult a physicist about how to landscape my yard, nor a Holocaust survivor about poverty in India... because neither the physicist nor survivor have any intrinsic knowledge about the topic to prove worthwhile.  

 

On the SJW angle... the cause-head mindset seeks change.  That's not bad in and of itself... but going about it by finding your closest majority representative (the straight white male) and blaming him for everything solves absolutely nothing.  It'll just make them dig in their heels and hate your "cause" more.  

 

This is, ultimately, why representation of what we "want" to be is a better form of social change than a discussion about "what is" or "what has been".  Neither of the last two will ever change anything.  It will simply ask people to pick which side of the line they're on and scream inanely at one another like the imbecilic chattering monkeys that they are.

 

At the end of the day - games should do what they want.  I don't play the Witcher because it's "grim dark gritty realism realness"... I don't play the Witcher because it has a preset character and I'm not interested.  

 

But if we must talk about social change and video games - then Bioware is, I feel, superior for their "what ought to be" stance over "what is".

[KaiserShep]

As I have said before, you don't have any freaking idea about anything what you have said. If you believe Morrigan is a sex toy then everyone in DAO is such or just biased towards the Witcher.

 

I'm totally baffled by this "Morrigan is a sex toy" nonsense. I mean, the entire plan was conjured up by a woman, and it's she who offers it of her own free will, which you can just as well refuse. There might be an argument to be made for the Warden that you convince to get down with her if your Warden is female, but that doesn't make the prior claim any less ridiculous. 

[In Exile]

Thirdly, it portrays middle ages eastern European culture pretty much as I would imagine it to be.

I feel compelled to point out there's no such thing as "Eastern European" culture any more than there is western European culture. You can't even really talk about "Slavic" culture as being monolithic in that way.

It's more of an accurate reflection of modern 90s post-communist political and social morality.

[Rocknife]

In Witcher, it's alwys women who offer to sleep with Geralt so they're not sexualized either? They're not real people but the characters writers control, you realize this right? Characters act as writers desire. Both games sexualize women and DAO absolutely see women, or Morrigan, as a sex tool.

 

The very same writers now offering a more sensitive approach to the matter and acting all high and mighty seems like hypocrisy. They're not the slightest bit more sensitive, supporting equality and feminism more than the witcher's writer. It's just a failed marketing strategy. CDPR giving away free DLCs every week is a marketing strategy as well. Producers, publishers and writers are not doing all these because they're flawless, sensitive people with kindest heart but they're doing it so their game sells more, their company gains more respect and they make more profit. So stop glorifying writers, publishers or producers and realize you're living in the real world, not in utopia. I love Dragon Age Origins more than any other DA game or Witcher series but I just can't stand the same writers acting all high and mighty who proudly sexualized women and mocked homosexuality (not bi-sexuality) in Dragon Age: Origins.

 

I don't find sex or nudity disturbing but I find making women look like tools extremely disturbing. Acting like a paragon of sensitivity, defender of gender equaltiy and lgbt rights after all they have done to sexualize women in the previous games even more disturbing and dishonest than making women look like sex tools.

[andy6915]

@andy6915:  Did you just counter an argument you didn't like with an argument you do like?   What exactly makes your cherry picked internet reality better than the article in Spanish that is likely biased and not entirely truthful?  

 

That fact that people have an issue either way with feminism is, ultimately, a personal lie (otherwise known as opinion).  

 

Having an issue with feminism is, by its nature, a form of bigotry - though likely not against feminism itself, but against "the other having a problem with their station".  It's usually paraded around by people who've never experienced a single moment of real prejudice in their lives and are outraged that these "others" because, well - what else would they have to be outraged by?  They too - feel as a minority because they are told they can't be upset about "something" - so they choose to hate anyone that claims to be searching for representation. 

 

Honestly - why anyone would care about the opinion of such a person is beyond me.  They're ignorant and largely irrelevant to a conversation about equality of any sort.  They are, after all, the goal of what most minorities are trying to be "equal" to.  I don't consult a physicist about how to landscape my yard, nor a Holocaust survivor about poverty in India... because neither the physicist nor survivor have any intrinsic knowledge about the topic to prove worthwhile.  

 

On the SJW angle... the cause-head mindset seeks change.  That's not bad in and of itself... but going about it by finding your closest majority representative (the straight white male) and blaming him for everything solves absolutely nothing.  It'll just make them dig in their heels and hate your "cause" more.  

 

This is, ultimately, why representation of what we "want" to be is a better form of social change than a discussion about "what is" or "what has been".  Neither of the last two will ever change anything.  It will simply ask people to pick which side of the line they're on and scream inanely at one another like the imbecilic chattering monkeys that they are.

 

At the end of the day - games should do what they want.  I don't play the Witcher because it's "grim dark gritty realism realness"... I don't play the Witcher because it has a preset character and I'm not interested.  

 

But if we must talk about social change and video games - then Bioware is, I feel, superior for their "what ought to be" stance over "what is".

 

Of for... Did you even WATCH that video? No? Then shut up. I don't even know where the hell this rant even came from, and it almost feels like it's meant for someone else. All I did was say the pay gap is bullcrap.

 

And no, it's not bigoted to hate feminism. At all. No more than it is to hate the KKK, which is to race what feminism is to gender. And trust me, if you think this... You're very very ignorant about the modern day feminism "movement". You should try watching his "why people hate feminism" series, which that one is part of, and see why I think you're so ignorant about this subject. Feminism is bigotry, not the other way around. I hate feminism because I believe in equality. I was planning to mostly just lurk, but this post here made me decide to not stay silent. You did just attack me out of the blue merely for posting a video that is half an hour long because of how in depth it is on why the wage gap is BS, and you start going on about things I nor the video even bring up.

 

I'm an egalitarian, I'm what feminists pretend to be. Don't lecture me on this subject.

[midnight tea]

I feel compelled to point out there's no such thing as "Eastern European" culture any more than there is western European culture. You can't even really talk about "Slavic" culture as being monolithic in that way.

 

Well... there is, to a certain degree. I mean, aside from post-communist 90ties, communism, the devastation of WWII there are also partitions as well as Western part of Europe not thinking very highly of these parts of Europe for quite some time. 

 

Add to that the fact that Central/Eastern Europe is sort of a borderland between East and West, as well as a sort of borderland between Catholic/Protestant West and mashup Catholic/Orthodox and - to a degree - Muslim faith and there is a certain vibe to Eastern European cultures you don't get on Western side of the continent.

 

With that said - no, it is certainly NOT a monolith.

 

 

Thirdly, it portrays middle ages eastern European culture pretty much as I would imagine it to be.

 

What do you mean by that exactly?

[midnight tea]

And no, it's not bigoted to hate feminism. At all. No more than it is to hate the KKK, which is to race what feminism is to gender. And trust me, if you think this... You're very very ignorant about the modern day feminism "movement". You should try watching his "why people hate feminism" series, which that one is part of, and see why I think you're so ignorant about this subject. Feminism is bigotry, not the other way around. I hate feminism because I believe in equality. I was planning to mostly just lurk, but this post here made me decide to not stay silent. You did just attack me out of the blue merely for posting a video that is half an hour long because of how in depth it is on why the wage gap is BS, and you start going on about things I nor the video even bring up.

 

Tsk, tsk - I'd say that hating on feminism is rather like hating on LGBT movement. Is LGBT movement about bigotry? Women may not face as much discrimination as homosexual people still do today, but there are still some issues that can be legitimately discussed through and addressed.

 

Anyway, calling feminism bigotry or just basing opinion of entire movement just based on one (biased) video series, or calling people "very ignorant" just because they have a different opinion on the matter doesn't really foster atmosphere in which any discussion can exist, because it immediately antagonizes any person who either chooses to call themselves feminists (or are deemed as feminists... which happens frequently any time some sort of gender issue arises). I mean, comparing feminism to KKK puts you very close to violating Godwin's Law to begin with and is nothing other than a tactic to shut the mouth of anyone who disagrees with you. 

[Il Divo]

I'm totally baffled by this "Morrigan is a sex toy" nonsense. I mean, the entire plan was conjured up by a woman, and it's she who offers it of her own free will, which you can just as well refuse. There might be an argument to be made for the Warden that you convince to get down with her if your Warden is female, but that doesn't make the prior claim any less ridiculous. 

 

Really, that scenario can more accurately be interpreted as Morrigan using you for her own benefits, since the whole reason she goes along is her (and Flemeth's) desire for an OGB. 

[leaguer of one]

It's like you didn't read my comment at all.... I mean, the same question could be posed for women. Why is it that most female heros have to have smooth, curvy bodies with big boobs and soothing, sexy voice? How many chubby or un-curvy woman do you see portrayed as heroines to be desired by males? (also LOL - are you going to sit there and claim that games that target male audience, and which predominantly have muscled/fit male protagonists sexualize men for females????)

Heck, do you even SEE 50 year old women in game frequently?

 

Really, can't you see the massive flaw in your thinking? You say that males are sexualized just because they have great, fit bodies. And somehow women aren't even more sexualized, even though on top of their great, fit bodies they additionally have to wear revealing clothing, underline their sex-appeal with make-up or by being seductive??? It's another layer of sexy males just don't have to deal with on a level females do.

Counter point:Why do most male main characters strong solders, narrow waste, super 6 -8 pack abs, and fit bodies? How is that not being serialized?

[In Exile]

Well... there is, to a certain degree. I mean, aside from post-communist 90ties, communism, the devastation of WWII there are also partitions as well as Western part of Europe not thinking very highly of these parts of Europe for quite some time. 

 

Add to that the fact that Central/Eastern Europe is sort of a borderland between East and West, as well as a sort of borderland between Catholic/Protestant West and mashup Catholic/Orthodox and - to a degree - Muslim faith and there is a certain vibe to Eastern European cultures you don't get on Western side of the continent.

 

With that said - no, it is certainly NOT a monolith.

 

Speaking as someone who is Eastern European of descent, having in part grown up here, that just doesn't capture the division. It's like talking about the similarity between German and American culture culture. I mean, sure, to an external observer there is a great deal of similarity, and in the modern period there is a great deal of shared history, but that really doesn't capture very important differences in how stories are told and what ultimate cultural values (see e.g. attitudes toward sex and violence, or attitudes toward legal immigration and immigrants). 

 

Poland, for example, is not very much like Romania, which is not very much like the Albania. There are different languages, alphabets, a different historical relationships with the Turks, the Muslim faith, and Catholicism. 

 

What do you mean by that exactly?

 

There were a lot of structural and social problems endemic in communism, and the optimistic post-revolutionary period was something that (depending on the country we're talking about) wore off pretty quickly. The kind of cynicism about human nature that's inherent in the Witcher - the books, in part, though Geralt is an almost comical "SJW" in there, and the games a lot more - is a reflection of the kind of cynicism you see in post-communist dictatorships. 

 

Of course, the experience varies, because, again, Eastern Europe isn't monolithic and each country experienced, overthrew, and came to terms with communism in different ways (and then responded to communism differently). 

 

But to me the cultural values - and the ways that they're different - are so apparent in the Witcher, and in the (translated) books. 

 

It's a bit like how Bioware games are so very Canadian in a lot of ways, and seem more progressive to Americans just because of our cross-border differences in what social issues are important and in how they are seen. 

[leaguer of one]

Equality does not negate same-different. I expect men and women to be equal and different -  different in perspective, in behavior, in biological functioning. I am an older feminist and the portrayal of women and men,  for that matter, in the Witcher, does not bother me in the least:

 

Firstly - I am playing a fantasy game - I expect that the world created will  have elements that I find are wonderful and elements that make me cringe.

 

Secondly men and women are portrayed in that game as terrific and as horrible as men and women can be.

 

Thirdly, it portrays middle ages eastern European culture pretty much as I would imagine it to be.

 

As a woman I am confident in myself and in my gender - so really,  I just want to play a game, look at some great looking men and women  and have fun. IRL - I support vulnerable people - mostly women and children - so that's another matter.

If I could only give you more likes and a puppy....I would.