17 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

I picked daggers, been playing on hard mode. People were right that 2-handed weapon warrior enemies are annoying, but I find them manageable. But I'm still unsure about the choice. I initially picked daggers for two reasons.

 

One is that I can only see Sera and Varric as ranged characters, so Cole gets daggers. That imbalance meant I thought the party really didn't need a third archer with one one dagger user.

 

Two is that I'm going to be a tempest, and tempest seems to work best with daggers. Ice flask works well with being in the middle of melee combat since it will be freezing enemies constantly and helps you survive melee as a rogue. And daggers get 2 abilities that do great extra damage to incapacitated enemies, which ice flask is very good at doing. I'm thinking about getting shadow strike, which will make the 3 skills I have equipped that are actual attacks (all 3 flasks and evasion and stealth and 3 attack skills for a total of 8 slots). All 3 attacks will work amazing with ice flask. And then there's fire flask, which will let me do things like spamming death blow on a weakened enemy. I tried archer tempest with Sera and wasn't impressed. Reasons being that archer skills take a second or 2 to prime before firing which wastes fire flasks duration, I was only able to get off 2 full draws before it ended. And archer only has a single attack that is a detonator and it's the most limited one in that you need to be 15 meters away to get full damage, and shadow strike won't really work with archery since it's short ranged. And I won't be freezing enemies often since I'll be at long range all the time anyway. To sum up, daggers get 3 worthwhile attacks that are detonators which tempest is great for priming, and archery's skills are too slow to work well with fire flask.

 

So I think I want to play archery, but the facts are that daggers appear to work objectively better with daggers which means I'll just be making myself weaker by doing it. And again, the party already has more archers than dagger specialists. I suppose later when money is easier to come by I'll just pack a few respec amulets and just switch back and forth for a while. But I can't see archer working as well with tempest.

 

I guess the point of all this is... Are archers better with tempest than my own analysis says they are? Because I can't see archers measuring up to having an easy detonation primer and 3 detonation abilities on hand at all times when it only gets 1 detonator and won't be priming often.

[Duelist]

Should you go archery, I would recommend Artificer over Tempest for Opportunity Knocks alone in addition to it being a more versatile specialisation.
Also, Elemental Mines are addictive as hell.

As for daggers, Assassin is the best but a melee Tempest gets more out of Flask Of Frost than an archer does and Flask Of Fire allows for Deathblow spam.

Honestly, now that the Flask Of Fire + Thousand Cuts combo got patched, Tempest isn't all that great.
It isn't at all horrible, it just isn't the best.

EDIT: Tempest archers are good for spamming Long Shot during Flask Of Fire and turning an AI controlled archer into a machine gun during Flask Of Lightning, although Flask Of Frost is pretty much just there as either an oh crap button or for the Ride The Storm.

[andy6915]

Should you go archery, I would recommend Artificer over Tempest for Opportunity Knocks alone in addition to it being a more versatile specialisation.
Also, Elemental Mines are addictive as hell.

As for daggers, Assassin is the best but a melee Tempest gets more out of Flask Of Frost than an archer does and Flask Of Fire allows for Deathblow spam.

Honestly, now that the Flask Of Fire + Thousand Cuts combo got patched, Tempest isn't all that great.
It isn't at all horrible, it just isn't the best.

EDIT: Tempest archers are good for spamming Long Shot during Flask Of Fire and turning an AI controlled archer into a machine gun during Flask Of Lightning, although Flask Of Frost is pretty much just there as either an oh crap button or for the Ride The Storm.

 

I won't touch artificer, that spec is about as opposite of my fighting style as you can get. I don't care for setting traps. Besides that, tempest is the one I'm going with regardless of anything else.

 

How is assassin better? It has a lot of damage output, and not much else. And as far as I know, tempest is known to be far and away the best spec you can pick for your rogue.

 

Tempest isn't great because it lost an exploit? Okay...

 

http://forum.bioware...doing-it-wrong/

 

Read that, because you just said something wrong.

 

 

 

The one person to respond is no help at all... Great.

[Mummy22kids]

Personally I find archer to be meh at the best of times.  I really enjoyed playing daggers though (regardless of specialization), but that has more to do with my personal style and preferences than any objective comparison I've made between the two. Just like I prefer Sword&board to 2h if I'm playing a warrior.

[andy6915]

Personally I find archer to be meh at the best of times.  I really enjoyed playing daggers though (regardless of specialization), but that has more to do with my personal style and preferences than any objective comparison I've made between the two. Just like I prefer Sword&board to 2h if I'm playing a warrior.

 

If I may ask, which dagger style do you prefer? I've only been using the dual dagger style for the last hour or 2, and I'm not sure which I prefer. One is great for crowds and sucks for single tough enemies, and the other is great for killing a single tough enemy but is awful for groups.

 

I ask because now I'm thinking this isn't just archery versus daggers anymore, now it's dual blade daggers versus regular daggers versus archery.

[Mummy22kids]

I prefer regular daggers spec'd as an assassin.  Usually my party has 2 warriors and one mage, occasionally 2 mages (for dragons and such) and one warrior then I play rogue, I almost never take a 2nd rogue.

[PapaCharlie9]

Personally, I think archer > DW for Tempest, but I'm curious why you think it's the opposite?

 

I still get a kick out of Sera going into machine-gun mode with bow + Flask of Lightning and a different character controlled as observer. DW can't beat that for sheer coolness of the animation.

[Duelist]

I won't touch artificer, that spec is about as opposite of my fighting style as you can get. I don't care for setting traps. Besides that, tempest is the one I'm going with regardless of anything else.

How is assassin better? It has a lot of damage output, and not much else. And as far as I know, tempest is known to be far and away the best spec you can pick for your rogue.

Tempest isn't great because it lost an exploit? Okay...

http://forum.bioware...doing-it-wrong/

Read that, because you just said something wrong.



The one person to respond is no help at all... Great.

I never said it wasn't great, just that it's big thing was a bug.
It's a good spec, particularly for those who don't normally play rogues, it's just the worst rogue spec.

The traps aren't the draw for an Artificer, Opportunity Knocks is since that one passive is like a permanent Flask Of Fire since it works off both your party's and your own crits.
The Mines are wiping out clusters of enemies.

As for Assassin over Tempest, it's because in addition to it's damage, it can set up and set off it's own combos (Hidden Blades is a detonator) in addition to having Mark Of Death.

Lastly, actually try Artificer before passing judgement on it.
My initial impression was exactly the same as yours.

[Lynx7386]

How does the artificer's focus ability work for bows, is it worth going artificer just for that?  Says it doubles all of your bow abilities while active, seems like it'd be exceptionally good with that 40 second duration, but I havent gotten far enough in the game yet to try it.

[Duelist]

How does the artificer's focus ability work for bows, is it worth going artificer just for that? Says it doubles all of your bow abilities while active, seems like it'd be exceptionally good with that 40 second duration, but I havent gotten far enough in the game yet to try it.

It's on par with Thousand Cuts.

I used it to roll the Sandy Howler while badly underleveled although Varric did have Mighty Offense Tonic and about 50% crit chance.

[themageguy]

My Tempest will switch styles when I feel like it. For archery, i tend to prefer that style over daggers. I feel better able to survey the battlefield, using flask of fire to spam explosive burst on clustered groups or leaping shots on a dragon, and flask of lightning to mostly disrupt fade rifts.

Flask of frost helps as a panic button and to keep the ride the storm passive going.

As for Artificer, i too didn't think much of it, as i preferred the concept of the Tempest specialisation too much. However when i actually tried it, its ridiculously fun to play.
I really do advise you to give it a try with archery- the spike trap works well against assassin units.

A Tempest Archer is a great character....but i think that Archer Artificer is a great contender on Archery/ability synergy, and ultimately only you will be able to decide if the tempest/archery combo suits your own playstyle.

[andy6915]

Personally, I think archer > DW for Tempest, but I'm curious why you think it's the opposite?

 

I still get a kick out of Sera going into machine-gun mode with bow + Flask of Lightning and a different character controlled as observer. DW can't beat that for sheer coolness of the animation.

 

I already explained my reasons in detail in my first post in the topic, ice flask primes everything for detonation and there's 3 close range detonators and dagger has 2 of them and archery can't feasibly go nuts with shadow strike. That is an exceptional combination of skill trees, probably one of the best in the game.

[Bigdawg13]

I must have put in over 200 hours of gameplay on various rogues, and never did decide between archery vs. DW.  It really comes down to monotonous game play.  By switching out the style, I was able to keep the game feeling fresh.  Doesn't matter the specialization.

 

As for specializations, I really disliked the tempest.  The problem with tempest is the tempest tree is bloated and there are only 8 slots.  I rarely would stealth, and the gameplay was really monotonous even when switching specs.  Primarily you chain flasks and end with flask of fire, and then spam an ability. 

 

The assassin was great because mark of death really gives some huge crits.  And it's fun to see.  Hidden blades was basically a mini-Thousand cuts that you could use every few seconds!  I did find that the shorter range with hidden blades was counter productive to long shot, and so archery assassin felt clumsy.  Also, once again the gameplay became very simplistic.  Stealth -> Full Draw or Stealth -> Twin Blades, rinse repeat

 

Artificer was a real surprise to me.  I had to force myself to try it as I was not interested.  But wow was I surprised.  Once I had made sure my party had some decent crit, it felt like I was a tempest with perma flask of fire.  I never ran out of stamina and I had virtually 0 cooldown on every ability.  For archer, I had a lot of fun with hook & tackle followed by leaping shot.  I had a necklace with +50 stamina and upgraded bombs was just ridiculously awesome!!!!!   As DW, I took abilities with multi-hit such as throwing knives and spinning blades, and it was a real big surprise to me.  Gameplay was fun and felt interesting and different.  Highly recommend everyone try an artificer.

[M-Taylor]

I won't touch artificer, that spec is about as opposite of my fighting style as you can get. I don't care for setting traps. Besides that, tempest is the one I'm going with regardless of anything else.

 

How is assassin better? It has a lot of damage output, and not much else. And as far as I know, tempest is known to be far and away the best spec you can pick for your rogue.

 

Tempest isn't great because it lost an exploit? Okay...

 

http://forum.bioware...doing-it-wrong/

 

Read that, because you just said something wrong.

 

 

 

The one person to respond is no help at all... Great.

 

You are literally so passive aggressive in all your posts and there's just no need for it man. What he said was true and relevant to your question.

 

Tempest is okay, but it has lost it's main reason to spec it; Flask of Fire and Thousand Cut exploit is what made it *the* spec for rogues. It's gone now, and while it is still useful, the other specs simply do provide more damage.

 

Plus, while being incredibly patronising, you came out with the hilarious comment that artifcer are about traps. Nah man, yeah they can do traps (and elemental mines do have an adictive animation), but their main strength lies in virtually no CDs. With my artificer rogue, all I do is Leaping Shot -> Leaping Shot -> Leaping Shot -> Hook and Tackle and repeat. Not one trap is used, but **** dies quickly.

 

The point of my post is there's no need for your condscending tone in every post. I read your 'what should I play?' thread, and if anyone suggested something you didn't like, you snapped the **** out of them. They're taking time out of their day to help you, regardless if you found it 'useful' or not, and if you don't want help, don't ask the questions haha.

[Gothfather]

I picked daggers, been playing on hard mode. People were right that 2-handed weapon warrior enemies are annoying, but I find them manageable. But I'm still unsure about the choice. I initially picked daggers for two reasons.

 

One is that I can only see Sera and Varric as ranged characters, so Cole gets daggers. That imbalance meant I thought the party really didn't need a third archer with one one dagger user.

 

Two is that I'm going to be a tempest, and tempest seems to work best with daggers. Ice flask works well with being in the middle of melee combat since it will be freezing enemies constantly and helps you survive melee as a rogue. And daggers get 2 abilities that do great extra damage to incapacitated enemies, which ice flask is very good at doing. I'm thinking about getting shadow strike, which will make the 3 skills I have equipped that are actual attacks (all 3 flasks and evasion and stealth and 3 attack skills for a total of 8 slots). All 3 attacks will work amazing with ice flask. And then there's fire flask, which will let me do things like spamming death blow on a weakened enemy. I tried archer tempest with Sera and wasn't impressed. Reasons being that archer skills take a second or 2 to prime before firing which wastes fire flasks duration, I was only able to get off 2 full draws before it ended. And archer only has a single attack that is a detonator and it's the most limited one in that you need to be 15 meters away to get full damage, and shadow strike won't really work with archery since it's short ranged. And I won't be freezing enemies often since I'll be at long range all the time anyway. To sum up, daggers get 3 worthwhile attacks that are detonators which tempest is great for priming, and archery's skills are too slow to work well with fire flask.

 

So I think I want to play archery, but the facts are that daggers appear to work objectively better with daggers which means I'll just be making myself weaker by doing it. And again, the party already has more archers than dagger specialists. I suppose later when money is easier to come by I'll just pack a few respec amulets and just switch back and forth for a while. But I can't see archer working as well with tempest.

 

I guess the point of all this is... Are archers better with tempest than my own analysis says they are? Because I can't see archers measuring up to having an easy detonation primer and 3 detonation abilities on hand at all times when it only gets 1 detonator and won't be priming often.

 

I honestly think people should play the combat style they most enjoy vs what is 'officially' the most powerful. The balance of the game on the highest difficulties isn't so razor thin that you can't compete the game except with the most optimal builds. So you might as well play the game in a manner you enjoy as in the end your game isn't going to suffer if you are not doing the most damage possible in fact it may improve. As some boss fights can be a snooze with an optimal build.

[Morty Smith]

You should take the weakest option and perfect it, that way you will excel at every challenge no matter your options.

[CanadianPeanut]

Personally, I play all my rogues as daggers and almost always as assassin spec because it suits my play style. Every RPG I've played has always been as a rogue or thief (stealth stabby stabby) on my first play through.

I have tried archer in DA:I but I just couldn't find a play style I found exciting. Assassin doesn't really fit with an archer in my opinion. It's viable and the abilities function properly, but the throwing knife for hidden blades and the idea of attacking from or even just seeking to be in melee range as an archer wielding only a bow doesn't make sense to me. Tempest was never really interesting, spamming as many abilities as you can in a short window makes the abilities feel less impactful. And seeking to be in melee range (with only a bow) just so I can hit leaping shot a bunch of times makes no sense to me. Why would my character WANT to do that? Finally Artificer, the traps and mines fit the archer idea (or at least some type of hunter, all its missing is a pet). But my dislike of the Artificer come from a combat standpoint. I feel like I either need to (again) be in melee to make use of the traps and mines or start every fight by pulling the enemies through a doorway or chokepoint that is trapped.

Others in this thread have pointed out that the Artificer isn't about the traps and mines but about Opportunity Knocks, the passive that gives reduced cooldowns from any crits team wide. This would have the same issue as the tempest, actively get into melee just to use leaping shot a bunch of times (WHY do I want to do this with no way of defending myself?)

How is assassin better? It has a lot of damage output, and not much else. And as far as I know, tempest is known to be far and away the best spec you can pick for your rogue

What is "known" by the community is the tempest is strong if not somewhat monotonous (you can't tell me that spamming the same button over and over is fun) and is also the only rogue spec capable of cross-class combos without another class. Flask of frost's freeze acts as a primer for shatters. Though every class in the game is capable of basic combos on their own. All rogues have knockout powder (subterfuge tree) that can be detonated for a basic combo (dealing moderate bonus physical damage) by any rogue detonator ability.

Assassin has "I was never here" (undervalued defensively imo), knife from the shadows (auto crits when attacking from stealth makes getting back to wealth again easier) and mark of death (THE big damage ability).

Your decision about what you want to play is exactly that, YOUR DECISION. If you're going to come here, asking advice about what to play then $#!% all over the people offering suggestions, why come here at all? The only way to know for certain what you are going to enjoy playing is to try them. Try all of them, the specialization quests aren't overly difficult. Complete them all, save the game creating a new save file so you have that save point available then pick one and spec into it. Use a respec amulet and put some points into that tree so you can get an idea of how it will play. Reload the original save and pick another spec and try again, until you find something you enjoy.

If you are for whatever reason dead set on ONLY playing a tempest (because its the "best") then just do the same thing before you swap back and forth between daggers and bow.

In the end, I think if you want to play an archer, go ahead and play an archer. It's not going to hurt you in the long run. If anything, you'll enjoy the game more because of the "extra challenge" and the game isn't so tightly tuned that you need to play the most optimal spec and composition (although manually talenting your tank to be the most optimal for ai control certainly makes things easier) at all times

[tcun44]

Others in this thread have pointed out that the Artificer isn't about the traps and mines but about Opportunity Knocks, the passive that gives reduced cooldowns from any crits team wide. This would have the same issue as the tempest, actively get into melee just to use leaping shot a bunch of times (WHY do I want to do this with no way of defending myself?)

 

 

 

Agree with the general premise of your thread- pick whichever spec is the most fun. I will add- to anyone thinking about Artificer- the upside to Archer Artifcer is the insanely fast cool down times. You are basically spamming Full Draw-Long Shot- Auto Attack- and then start over again You need not even use Elemental Mines (though they are fun). I never used the Spike Trap thing. 

 

I agree daggers are more fun- but Artificer need not be about traps and mines. You can kill lots of stuff with long range Archer abilities.