17 réponses à ce sujet

[Vazgen]

So I decided to think of a way how the Catalyst can exist alongside the events of ME1 without being a plot hole This is going to contain a heavy dose of headcanon. 

 

The Citadel is part of me

 

First, I want to address Catalyst's words in ME3.

Spoiler

Child: Wake up.

Shepard: What? Where am I?

Child: The Citadel. It's my home.

Shepard: Who are you?

Child: I am the Catalyst.

Shepard: I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst.

Child: No. The Citadel is part of me.

Now, if we take these words literally it'll throw a wrench into the whole ending of ME1 when 

1) A vanguard Reaper was left to send a signal to the keepers - the Catalyst could've done so itself

Spoiler

Vigil: "It is logical to assume that the Reapers would leave one of their own behind after each extinction, a sentinel to pave the way for their inevitable return. Like those in dark space, Sovereign most likely spent most of the past 50.000 years in hibernation. Periodically it would wake to analyze the situation. Keeping it's existence hidden, it would evaluate the state of galactic civilization. And, when the time was right, it would signal the Citadel and usher in the next Reaper invasion."

2) Prothean scientists were able to alter the signal without the Catalyst noticing

Spoiler

Vigil: "The Keepers are controlled by the Citadel. Before each invasion, a signal is sent through the station, compelling the Keepers to activate the Citadel relay. After decades of feverish study, the scientists discovered a way to alter this signal. Using the Conduit, they gained access to the Citadel and made the modifications. This time, when Sovereign sent the signal to the Citadel, the Keepers ignored it. The Reapers are trapped in dark space."

 

"But the Keepers are not longer directly controlled by Sovereign or its ilk. They evolved so that they only respond to the signals emitted by the Citadel itself."

3) Vigil data file allowed to override station's security systems.

Spoiler

Vigil: "There is a data file in my console. Take a copy when you go. When you reach the Citadel's master control unit, upload it to the station. It will corrupt the Citadel security protocols and give you temporary control of the station. It might give you a chance against Sovereign."

4) Sovereign needed to override station's security systems to open the relay

Spoiler

Vigil: "Sovereign will override the Citadel's systems and manually open the Relay."

 

All of this boils to Prothean scientists making modifications to the Citadel which is "part of me" as the Catalyst says it (if we take it literally). 

I think that "the Catalyst" acts as a homonym in this case. The child says:

Spoiler

Child: I was created to bring balance, to be the catalyst for peace between organics and synthetics.

Consider for a moment, that Shepard refers to the Catalyst as the missing component of the Crucible while the child refers to the aforementioned catalyst for peace. If that's the case, the phrase "The Citadel is part of me" means "The Citadel is part of the catalyst for peace between organics and synthetics" which works since the Citadel is an integral part of the child's 'solution'.

 

Reaper independence

 

The second point I want to address is the child controlling the Reapers. It says:

Spoiler

Child: "I control the Reapers. They are my solution."

Now, if we consider the Reapers as simple pawns moved by a mastermind in form of the child, it contradicts their independent actions and personalities.

I think that the Reapers act independently. The child says

Spoiler

Child: "My creators gave them form. I gave them function. They, in turn, give me purpose."

What I think this means is that 1) the Reapers are created in the form of Leviathans 2) their task is the preservation of organics and synthetics 3) the data they collect is then used by the child in search of a new solution. 

Spoiler

Leviathan: "To find a solution, it required information - physical data drawn from organic life in the cosmos. It created an "army of pawns" that searched the galaxy, gathering this data."

The Reapers continue the process started by the pawns.  I think the Reapers are autonomous in their search and acquisition of data and the Catalyst can assume control at any moment. I think that in Control ending, Shepard assumes control and changes their function. Preserve becomes protect. 

 

The Catalyst's actual power over the Citadel

 

In Control ending we see the Citadel arms closing which means that the Catalyst can control them. But that would mean that Vigil's data file overrides Catalyst's systems? Or that Sovereign needs to do the same, despite being the Catalyst's creation?

Personally, I think that the Catalyst is in hibernation until the genetic material is brought to the Citadel to create a new Reaper. It coincides well with the previous supposition of independent state of the Reapers. The Catalyst's function is not to oversee the harvest, it's finding a solution based on the physical data collected by the Reapers. There is no reason for it to be active before having access to the data. That means it is only 'wakes up' after the Citadel is moved to Earth. 

 

The Collectors were simply laying groundwork for the human Reaper.

"They are going to target Earth"

We all know they would not have been able to do it with their one ship. My guess is that the Collector Base was creating the Reaper core and would've moved it to the Citadel once it was completed. Then they would've connected it (giving the Catalyst access to its data) and finalized the construction on the Citadel by building the cuttlefish shell over it. 

 

Sources

1. The Catalyst conversation
2. Vigil conversation
3. Leviathan conversation

[Vazgen]

I guess your interpretation works.

 

I could also say the Catalyst IS Sovereign, screwing with you.

 

Or maybe none of it is real, and Shepard is screwing with him/herself.

 

Or maybe the developers don't really care and they're the ones screwing with us. After all, Mass Effect 3 is a "good place to start".

 

 

I'll just try not to think about it.  This way, I can keep liking the game.

I like to explain things I'm able to explain If I'm not *cough*Synthesis*cough* I just forget about those and avoid them as much as possible

[fraggle]

I like your interpretation, and it would make sense for the Catalyst to also hibernate along with the Reapers. Then there's the Keepers, which guide the species once they discover the Citadel, and also maintain the Citadel. The Catalyst could've maybe done it on its own (the maintaining), but it's assumed it created the Keepers to let them do this task. Maybe exactly because the Catalyst needed to hibernate as well. And maybe that's also the reason why the Keepers could evolve on their own without the Catalyst's interference?

Either that or it did think of them as harmless and just left them alone.

 

Though I had the idea before that the Catalyst doesn't have full control over the Citadel (to also make it work in ME1 in case it doesn't hibernate), because maybe it just did not want to actively participate, or rather couldn't.

I know in Control Shepalyst closes the arms of the Citadel, but maybe that only worked because of the Crucible's change?

My thoughts on why the Catalyst was not fully in control were that it is rather hostile when Shepard arrives in the Low EMS ending, because Synthesis cannot be achieved there. So what would its reasoning be for lifting Shepard up (assuming the Catalyst is actually the one that raised the platform, which I still don't believe 100%)?

Hoping Shepard would choose Control? But if only Destroy is available, why would it be so stupid to lift Shepard up? And most importantly, why would it even let Shepard open the arms after TIM died?

I'm sure I forgot some important parts that would contradict that idea, but I also kinda liked it

 

Well anyway, I guess hibernating is a good explanation, what else would it do for 50.000 years? Except studying data. Or spying on the civilizations.

 

Even after countless discussions I still find this topic interesting

[Vazgen]

Why would it even let Shepard open the arms after TIM died?

That's a good question. Especially if it has control of the arms. Maybe it only gets control of the arms after the Crucible fires? Might even be due to those modifications that Prothean scientists did - Control wave overwrites/destroys the safeguards preventing it from controlling the arms.

 

There was one thread that got locked. It brought an interesting idea, that the contraption actually stops the Crucible from firing and is capable of altering its function. Like, the Crucible is created to automatically fire upon dock but the contraption stops it from doing so and presents other options. Destroy - destroys the contraption and Crucible fires as intended. Control/Synthesis - change the Crucible's operation and only then fire. 

[fraggle]

There was one thread that got locked. It brought an interesting idea, that the contraption actually stops the Crucible from firing and is capable of altering its function. Like, the Crucible is created to automatically fire upon dock but the contraption stops it from doing so and presents other options. Destroy - destroys the contraption and Crucible fires as intended. Control/Synthesis - change the Crucible's operation and only then fire. 

 

Yeah, that sounds interesting! Too bad it got locked. I don't think I ever read this thread

[Vazgen]

Yeah, that sounds interesting! Too bad it got locked. I don't think I ever read this thread

Here it is: Link

The focus is mostly on the Catalyst trying to deceive Shepard and the other two options being indoctrination but there are some interesting moments for those who take the choices at the face value as well.

[KrrKs]

[...]

Personally, I think that the Catalyst is in hibernation until the genetic material is brought to the Citadel to create a new Reaper. It coincides well with the previous supposition of independent state of the Reapers.

Wouldn't the Reapers then need a way to 'wake up' the AI so it can begin 'processing' the delivered material -or maybe to even allow the delivery. The Citadel beam/neo conduit thingy doesn't look like standard reaper tech to me.

-And if the Reapers do need/have a possibility to wake the AI up, why didn't Sovereign use it?

 

[...]

1.) I know in Control Shepalyst closes the arms of the Citadel, but maybe that only worked because of the Crucible's change?

 

2.) My thoughts on why the Catalyst was not fully in control were that it is rather hostile when Shepard arrives in the Low EMS ending, because Synthesis cannot be achieved there. So what would its reasoning be for lifting Shepard up (assuming the Catalyst is actually the one that raised the platform, which I still don't believe 100%)?

1.: I don't thinks so; according to the AI the Crucible is nothing more than a glorified battery. All the ending manipulation structures and effectors are part of the citadel.

 

2.: This is also a major bummer:

   If the catalyst did control the lift, why did it react that way in low ems destroy?

   If the catalyst did not control the lift, what does? There would be another 'entity' (a.) or automated mechanism (b.).

      If it's a.) and entity similar to an VI or AI with more control over citadel functions, we are again at: "Why didn't it help sovereign?'

      If it's b.) just an automated lift, why did it react just after Shep fell unconscious, and not before? Why did no one else ever use this lift* and find the control room/goo processing rooms.

      (speculation, but for me it looks like there never was anyone before Anderson, Shepard and TIM)

[Vazgen]

Wouldn't the Reapers then need a way to 'wake up' the AI so it can begin 'processing' the delivered material -or maybe to even allow the delivery. The Citadel beam/neo conduit thingy doesn't look like standard reaper tech to me.

-And if the Reapers do need/have a possibility to wake the AI up, why didn't Sovereign use it?

They do, when they get control of the Citadel. As for why Sovereign didn't use it there are several possibilities. One - the harvest wasn't started then, why wake it up? There was no material to process. Two - it never had the chance, Shepard used Vigil's data file and killed it before activation. 

[fraggle]

1.: I don't thinks so; according to the AI the Crucible is nothing more than a glorified battery. All the ending manipulation structures and effectors are part of the citadel.

 

2.: This is also a major bummer:

   If the catalyst did control the lift, why did it react that way in low ems destroy?

   If the catalyst did not control the lift, what does? There would be another 'entity' (a.) or automated mechanism (b.).

      If it's a.) and entity similar to an VI or AI with more control over citadel functions, we are again at: "Why didn't it help sovereign?'

      If it's b.) just an automated lift, why did it react just after Shep fell unconscious, and not before? Why did no one else ever use this lift* and find the control room/goo processing rooms.

      (speculation, but for me it looks like there never was anyone before Anderson, Shepard and TIM)

 

Yeah, that is true about the battery, but let's take a look at 2:

For b., the lift only takes Shepard up after the Crucible docked. Before, Shepard just opens the arms and nothing happened, which kinda led me to believe that the Crucible does have to do something with this whole process, like some chain reaction. We could maybe argue that the civilizations knew a shitton more about the Citadel than we do and tried to incorporate the platform (far-fetched, but whatever), maybe it could have to do with the energy juices flowing now.

 

Could also be the Catalyst realising a new solution must be found no matter what, and that's why it still lifts up Shepard, even if only Destroy would be available. Which wouldn't really make sense, but maybe in line with the Crucible changing it it accepts the new solution grumpily.

[Heimerdinger]

I think of the Intelligence as a non-physical entity, a sort of master code that spans across all reaper platforms. As he says: "I embody the collective intelligence of all reapers." So in a sense he is the reapers. All of them.

 

The Intelligence could not open the Citadel relay because it was altered by the protheans (probably on a hardware level), he needed Sovereign to act as a physical arm and bypass the Citadel controls manually.

 

I think the reapers are independent as individual platforms, but at as a group they follow the master code that gives them an overall goal and purpose. Over time the Intelligence could have evolved and it's code is spread out across all reapers and the Citadel. 

[KrrKs]

This assumptions also goes against several statements made by the AI or the leviathans.

 

The Catalyst was constructed/developed by leviathan thralls before the reapers, and before the idea that it could 'use' remote platforms somehow.

Maybe the statement about the 'collective intelligence' was meant in a way that it knows everything the reapers know.

(I don't know; the english use and meaning of the word intelligence can be fundamentally different from the german one)

 

If Sovereign did upload itself, is it now part of the AI? Or did it land in a dumpster once the catalyst awoke?

 

General remarks:

It is my impression that the catalyst does not have any sort of direct control over the Reapers. I'd even go so far as that the Reapers can and do act without the AI's knowledge.

This is based primarily on the assumption that the Catalyst does tell the truth in the conversation:

It insists on only sufficiently advanced species being 'preserved'/harvested. The others are to be left alone.

But we know from at least one planet description (in ME2 I believe) that states, that the reapers have completely destroyed a bronze age civilisation via orbital bombardment.

A civilization that did not seem to fall into the 'sufficiently advanced' category, and was not harvested beforehand.

[Callidus Thorn]

I should point out that while I've watched vids of the ending and the discussion with starchild, I've not actually played ME3, so the above is undoubtedly dodgy. But then again, so's the catalyst.

 

Just a few thoughts:

 

 

Why does the Catalyst have to be dormant?

 

What if it exists in a secondary layer of systems inside the Citadel? From there it can monitor and evaluate all the races using the Citadel, without being discovered. This prevents it from acting directly to aid the Reapers, because it's not supposed to, and doesn't need to. Any race is harvested before they become a threat. The Protheans with Ilos were an anomaly. The Citadel would then have been built as much to facilitate the Catalyst's work as to aid in the harvesting of the races. So when the Catalyst says "The Citadel is part of me." it's accurate.

 

Sovereign would then have been floating dormant in space(because lets face it, there's absolutely no reason for it to be active for 50,000 years waiting when for the vast majority of that time nothing happens and it isn't needed) until the Catalyst wakes it up to begin the process. The Catalyst then has complete control over when the Reapers emerge, without actually removing their independence.

 

The Crucible provided a link between the Catalyst and the Citadel, allowing it access to the Citadel's systems.

[Vazgen]

I think of the Intelligence as a non-physical entity, a sort of master code that spans across all reaper platforms. As he says: "I embody the collective intelligence of all reapers." So in a sense he is the reapers. All of them.

 

The Intelligence could not open the Citadel relay because it was altered by the protheans (probably on a hardware level), he needed Sovereign to act as a physical arm and bypass the Citadel controls manually.

 

I think the reapers are independent as individual platforms, but at as a group they follow the master code that gives them an overall goal and purpose. Over time the Intelligence could have evolved and it's code is spread out across all reapers and the Citadel. 

That raises some other questions. If the intelligence is aware of the modifications and just can't stop the protheans from applying them due to being purely software, why doesn't it contact Sovereign right away to come and fix the modifications? The Citadel is not discovered by then so the Sovereign would not risk anything.

And the only way I can see it not being aware of some of its functions being altered is for it to be dormant at the time.

 

This assumptions also goes against several statements made by the AI or the leviathans.

 

The Catalyst was constructed/developed by leviathan thralls before the reapers, and before the idea that it could 'use' remote platforms somehow.

Maybe the statement about the 'collective intelligence' was meant in a way that it knows everything the reapers know.

(I don't know; the english use and meaning of the word intelligence can be fundamentally different from the german one)

 

If Sovereign did upload itself, is it now part of the AI? Or did it land in a dumpster once the catalyst awoke?

 

General remarks:

It is my impression that the catalyst does not have any sort of direct control over the Reapers. I'd even go so far as that the Reapers can and do act without the AI's knowledge.

This is based primarily on the assumption that the Catalyst does tell the truth in the conversation:

It insists on only sufficiently advanced species being 'preserved'/harvested. The others are to be left alone.

But we know from at least one planet description (in ME2 I believe) that states, that the reapers have completely destroyed a bronze age civilisation via orbital bombardment.

A civilization that did not seem to fall into the 'sufficiently advanced' category, and was not harvested beforehand.

The intelligence says that it embodies the collective intelligence of all Reapers. But it does not say that the collective intelligence of all Reapers is all that it is. In fact, it clearly states that it created the Reapers, meaning that it is more than simply their collective intelligence.

 

I should point out that while I've watched vids of the ending and the discussion with starchild, I've not actually played ME3, so the above is undoubtedly dodgy. But then again, so's the catalyst.

 

Just a few thoughts:

 

 

Why does the Catalyst have to be dormant?

 

What if it exists in a secondary layer of systems inside the Citadel? From there it can monitor and evaluate all the races using the Citadel, without being discovered. This prevents it from acting directly to aid the Reapers, because it's not supposed to, and doesn't need to. Any race is harvested before they become a threat. The Protheans with Ilos were an anomaly. The Citadel would then have been built as much to facilitate the Catalyst's work as to aid in the harvesting of the races. So when the Catalyst says "The Citadel is part of me." it's accurate.

 

Sovereign would then have been floating dormant in space(because lets face it, there's absolutely no reason for it to be active for 50,000 years waiting when for the vast majority of that time nothing happens and it isn't needed) until the Catalyst wakes it up to begin the process. The Catalyst then has complete control over when the Reapers emerge, without actually removing their independence.

 

The Crucible provided a link between the Catalyst and the Citadel, allowing it access to the Citadel's systems.

This is an interesting assumption. One thing that goes against it is the Catalyst's statement that the Crucible is a little more than a power source. It is also a little weird that it won't be connected to the functions of Citadel relay and needs a vanguard to send the signal to the keepers. Also that it doesn't detect the changes in the relay control systems and doesn't fix them before the next harvest.

[Heimerdinger]

That raises some other questions. If the intelligence is aware of the modifications and just can't stop the protheans from applying them due to being purely software, why doesn't it contact Sovereign right away to come and fix the modifications? The Citadel is not discovered by then so the Sovereign would not risk anything.

And the only way I can see it not being aware of some of its functions being altered is for it to be dormant at the time.

 

I agree with your theory about the Intelligence going dormant. If the reapers hibernate in dark space and even the Vanguard wakes up only from time to time assessing the state of organic life then the overall processing power of the reaper collective takes a big drop. And since I think the Intelligence's code is spread across the Citadel + all reaper platforms then it makes sense for it to go dormant too.

[Felps Cross]

Really well thought out theory, and I truly agree in its viability. Interesting how amazing can be a headcanon, they sometimes surpass the official material in so many ways. Even complements it.

[CYRAX470]

No dis against your idea. I usually just prefer not to bring the Catalyst to ME1 or 2. It's a stain to me.

 

But, it's not bad I guess.