1396 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

Well, on blood magic, her attitude's not difficult to understand after 50 years under the chantry's thumb and then Uldred situation on top of that. But the "I hope the darkspawn take you" is pretty wild and over the top. The -18 disapproval for being told to shut up is amazing! I think you only get -9 if you cut a deal that lets Calandrius take the elven slaves as long as he leaves the letter behind.



Sometimes companions are touchy in funny ways, though. I remember in the post-Taliesin conversation with Zevran that I made the comment that the Crowe's wouldn't know he was still alive unless somebody told them and he freaked out, thinking I was implying I might tell them. I thought that given that this was after the Landsmeet had been summoned that he would realize that being a companion to the Grey Warden and a candidate for King couldn't exactly be called keeping a low profile.



Hmmm...I didn't read the "I have moved on, you should too" as revenge at all.

[ejoslin]

Oh, I wouldn't think Anairan said that out of revenge, and I doubt that is what was meant by the statement. Just that he HAD moved on and Wynne had been tormented for years over it.



And the more I think about Wynne, the more the approval drop actually makes sense. She wants to be seen as a wise teacher, and hates being told that she is not. She does not want to learn at all, which makes her comments to the Guardian even more ironic (only a fool is completely certain). Even the voice of a representative of all that is holy couldn't get through to her, so it's no surprise that no one else can.



But Anairan kind of does, actually. She's able to break away from the circle after meeting him. If you don't do her quest, she ends up back at the circle, with ever increasing responsibility. Despite being a closet abomination.

[melkathi]

ejoslin wrote...

Oh, I wouldn't think Anairan said that out of revenge, and I doubt that is what was meant by the statement. Just that he HAD moved on and Wynne had been tormented for years over it.

Oh he didn't mean it as revenge, after all he has indeed moved on. But it must be a slap in the face for Wynne. That her student has forgiven her for something she hadn't forgiven herself for. That someone teachers her

[Addai]

Our word for the day, children, is obnoxious.  Edit:  You can't see the type very well, but what she says is:  "Everyone has responsibility.  As a Grey Warden, you have more than most.  If talk about responsibilities bothers you, then you are too much of a child to be in any intimate relationship."

Modifié par Addai67, 19 février 2010 - 01:49 .

[ejoslin]

melkathi wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Oh, I wouldn't think Anairan said that out of revenge, and I doubt that is what was meant by the statement. Just that he HAD moved on and Wynne had been tormented for years over it.

Oh he didn't mean it as revenge, after all he has indeed moved on. But it must be a slap in the face for Wynne. That her student has forgiven her for something she hadn't forgiven herself for. That someone teachers her

I find it most amazing that someone can get through that skull of hers. Though it may have been the guilt she felt that kept her clinging to the notion that she was always right.

That I may understand her doesn't make me like her any more!

Edit: @Addai67 Yep, Obnoxious sums her up! 

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 février 2010 - 02:16 .

[melkathi]

ejoslin wrote...

I find it most amazing that someone can get through that skull of hers. 

I find it amazing that we just reached 10 pages in this thread.
When I created it I doubted it would get 10 replies.

[ejoslin]

Wynne-hate is such a special thing though. She really does have her defenders

[Cuddlezarro]

Wynn hate is indeed special if people get to hate on Alistair and Zevran why cant we hate on Wynn its only fair she gets some hate or she might feel left out!

[Calum_M]

I quite like Wynne. But then, most of my characters are near saints. The only problem is her inconsistency.



The biggest problem for me is at the end of her conversation with Alistair where she reveals that she has a son and says "It seems you got away from the chantry just in time" - clearly showing a dislike for the chantry. I can accept that she could still consider herself an Andrastean, but not a chantry-slave, but so many other times seem to contradict this.



For example, talking to Leliana in a very condescending tone about the accuracy of Leliana's interpretation of the Chant, attacking you for using Blood Magic - even if you use it for good, calling Morrigan a Malifecar despite not being so...



Also, it seems her reasons for disapproving of your relationship with Morrigan is that Grey Wardens shouldn't love, as they might be forced to make difficult decisions. But then, she decides that "Actually, you do love eachother, so it's OK"



But yeah, like I say, I usually like Wynne. Though I can see why people wouldn't.

[e-ver]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

@Allerleihrau, brilliant posts, and your insight into Wynne's reasons for wanting to join the Wardens is probably spot on. I never really thought about it like that, too busy laughing at Zevran when he asks Wynne about what it's like to be possesed by a spirit, and he starts turning it into something terribly perverted, and makes her feel "dirty". But you've just given me a bit of insight into what might be her motives for joining you.

Ah yes, Zevran's comments towards Wynne - if I didn't already love him to bits, I would without a doubt fall for him after hearing them. Just as she prattles on about responsibility with the Warden (never with Alistair though, should he not learn to take responsibility as well, he is a lot more immature than my Warden characters), she keeps nagging Zev about guilt. But he just knows not only how to deflect her, but how to make her uncomfortable at the same time. I only wish my character had dialogue options to make fun of her as well.

When my mage went and found Aderin, and Wynne is trying to get him back to the circle, i wanted so bad to chew her ass off right there for being so stupid and insensitive. I mean, the boy has forgiven her and moved on, found happieness and fulfillment with his people, and she wants him to return to an oppresive atmosphere and society that tried to kill him once already. And then afterwards, has the nerve to try to sucker my mage back to the guilded prison. She never learns, does she?

Yes, I too wish I could have said something in their conversation, support Aneirin's plan to remain with the Dalish or tell her off for falling back into the role of his tutor, despite the fact that she failed pretty badly at it the first time. Or tell her afterwards as you say.

@Sabriana: While the dalish don't worship or revere Andraste, they do respect her as a a great hero of legend who led their people to victory against Tevinter and freedom from slavery, and gave them their second homeland. In the Codex and in conversations with the dalish, she is the only shemlen that is mentioned with respect, as she led the rebellion and made sure her promise to them was kept. It was the Chantry, formed many years after her death, that broke her promise and turned on the Dalish. So while a Dalish PC would not worship or revere the ashes, I think they would, out of respect for probably the only shem worth respect, would not violate her remains.

Exactly, they are still only the remains of a dead woman, but of a dead woman who the Dalish respect.

Though I think they certainly would give Genitivi the murder knife, if nothing else, then to keep him from strengthening Chantry dogma, and drawing a bunch of shem pilgrims to pick at her ashes like a piece of holy pie.

Dwarves probably could care less either way.

Yep, poor Genitivi never made it back home for me. Shame about the reward though (I think you get a powerful rune if you seek him out in Denerim later?), but sometimes there are larger thingsat stake. And I just love the cutscene with your character throwing the knife, I never expected it to end up in his head.

ejoslin wrote...

Oh, Wynne with Anairan. Ugh. Ok, I found
HIM very sexy and all because of how gentle he was with her. He
understood what a tool she was. I think after her meeting with him, she
began to understand that as well.

Wynne did not like either of
my mages, because both hated the circle. I honestly do not understand
Wynne's attitude. I guess if she started questioning the circle, she
would be consumed with hate, because they really hurt her on so many
levels.

I agree, Aneirin posesses a lot more wisdom than she does.

Do you really think she began to understand after their meeting? You mentioned that she will return to the circle if you don't do her personal quest, that does support your interpretation. But she still tries to urge a mage Warden into returning to the Tower, although that would mean a great negligence of his/her Warden duties. Still it's an intriguing thought, something/someone actually getting through to her...

Addai67 wrote...

Our word for the day, children, is obnoxious. 
*snip*

Yep, that sums it up nicely.

melkathi wrote...
I find it amazing that we just reached 10 pages in this thread.
When I created it I doubted it would get 10 replies.

Although the thread initially started as an objective discussion about the alignment of her... subtenant, didn't it? We sorta hijacked it, didn't we? But you are a most gracious host to allow us to do so!

So, on topic: Pride demon?
On the one hand she seems to have been a condescending know-it-all her entire life, so that isn't necessarily proof  of possession by a pride demon.
On the other hand it might have been an exceptionally clever one (not like Mouse who slips up several times during the Harrowing). It might have picked her a long time ago in the Fade, seeing her potential both as a powerful mage (even though a mage Warden is of course a lot more powerful than Wynne, she is described as a very gifted mage in the game) and as someone who might be susceptible for possession by a pride demon. I don't think a few decades matter much for a demon, so it waited until the perfect opportunity presented itself.

I'll even give Wynne credit that she wouldn't be a mage easily posessed under normal circumstances, given her severe Chantry indoctrination etc. But in a situation between life and death, being approached by something that she thinks has protected her her whole life? Sounds possible to me.

And of course there is the fact that she isn't even able to resist the Sloth demon and escape her own nightmare. For an experienced and supposedly gifted mage who always had an affinity for the Fade that's not a great recommendation. Then again wouldn't the Pride Demon (if it is one) have helped her to break free of the nightmare? After all, demons possess mages to experience true life, not to be stuck inside a dream woven by another demon. On the other hand, maybe the pride demon had no power to break her free? Niall says, that the Sloth demon is very powerful and probably rules this entire section of the fade. Maybe Wynne's pride demon was utterly helpless there himself? Or even a hindrance?

Calum_M wrote...

*snip*

Also,
it seems her reasons for disapproving of your relationship with
Morrigan is that Grey Wardens shouldn't love, as they might be forced
to make difficult decisions. But then, she decides that "Actually, you
do love eachother, so it's OK"

*snip*

I am beginning to wonder if she truly means it, when she apologizes to the Warden about interfering in the relationship. Because you're right, there is definitely an inconsistency there. As long as it's nothing serious, she worries that it might interfere with your duty, but as soon as it is something that might truly keep you from doing something your duty requires (for example you or Alistair making the sacrifice, although she of course doesn't know about that). it's suddenly ok with her.
One might think that it's just prudery, but there are enough comments from her to indicate that she had her own share of casual sex.

So I am beginning to think that she just realized that she can do nothing to end the relationship and now tries to twist the situation around by giving her "blessing" - as if the Warden would need that. In a few years (I am sure she will outlive all of my other companions and probably give my character good advice when she travels to the Deep Roads for her Calling) Wynne will claim that the relationship was her idea all along and she encouraged the Warden to persue it in the first place.

Modifié par Allerleihrau, 19 février 2010 - 08:49 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

I consider anyone who doesn't like Al, Wynne or Leli a inhuman scumbag, not even worthy to growel at my feet.

[e-ver]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I consider anyone who doesn't like Al, Wynne or Leli a inhuman scumbag, not even worthy to growel at my feet.

Then I guess it's a good thing that I hadn't considered doing that. This way nobody is disappointed.

[CalJones]

The one thing that surprises me in that conversation is that you can't reply that you know your duties and they come before the relationship.

Then again there's a lot of stuff I wish I could say in this game but never get the option to.

[ejoslin]

CalJones wrote...

The one thing that surprises me in that conversation is that you can't reply that you know your duties and they come before the relationship.
Then again there's a lot of stuff I wish I could say in this game but never get the option to.

Actually, you can say something very much like that -- that you can handle your responsibilities and your relationships.  Really, anything else doesn't need to be said.  Wynne is not in a position where she really has a right to say anything about your relationships or your duties, though she feels it's HER duty to try to talk you into trying to live up to an impossible standard.

[ejoslin]

@ Allerleihrau, I never thought of the Wynne apology that way. LOL, it certainly is possible!

[melkathi]

I am inviting the Wynne Fan Club over for a friendly sparring session... ok, I formally declared war.
If they send troops our way, this could get fun

Edit: don't want to derail their thread, especially as it's in non-spoiler land

Modifié par melkathi, 19 février 2010 - 12:21 .

[Sabriana]

melkathi wrote...

I am inviting the Wynne Fan Club over for a friendly sparring session... ok, I formally declared war.
If they send troops our way, this could get fun

Why, Melkathi. There is a side of you I've never seen. I am shocked, I am.

*suiting up *

[Reaverwind]

ejoslin wrote...

CalJones wrote...

The one thing that surprises me in that conversation is that you can't reply that you know your duties and they come before the relationship.
Then again there's a lot of stuff I wish I could say in this game but never get the option to.

Actually, you can say something very much like that -- that you can handle your responsibilities and your relationships.  Really, anything else doesn't need to be said.  

Indeed, and it's at that point Wynne should realise she's starting to cross the line and shut up. Your character is the Grey Warden, your character saved her ass, and your character is the one carrying the group since Ostagar (since the more senior Warden fell apart), not to mention, she hasn't got a clue what being a Grey Warden is really all about (stopping the Darkspawn at all costs even if it DOES mean killing the few to save the many).

Modifié par Reaverwind, 19 février 2010 - 12:23 .

[ejoslin]

Ok, I got coffee ALL over my keyboard and monitor. You are EVIL melkathi (and I mean that in the best sense of the word).

[melkathi]

Allerleihrau wrote...

But she still tries to urge a mage Warden into returning to the Tower, although that would mean a great negligence of his/her Warden duties. Still it's an intriguing thought, something/someone actually getting through to her...

A Warden's duty must always come first. A Warden is not allowed to have sex.
Go to the Circle. Screw the fact that you are possibly the only Grey Warden alive in the whole country and need to rebuild the order.
Typical Wynnconsistency.

[Sabriana]

melkathi wrote...

Allerleihrau wrote...

But she still tries to urge a mage Warden into returning to the Tower, although that would mean a great negligence of his/her Warden duties. Still it's an intriguing thought, something/someone actually getting through to her...

A Warden's duty must always come first. A Warden is not allowed to have sex.
Go to the Circle. Screw the fact that you are possibly the only Grey Warden alive in the whole country and need to rebuild the order.
Typical Wynnconsistency.

Oh, another one worth stealing. My, my I've been finding a lot of goodies in this forum today.

*goes off to get a bigger loot-bag*

[e-ver]

melkathi wrote...

*snip*

Typical Wynnconsistency.

+10 approval

(By the way, I'm still melting because of the Zevran/Wynne dialogue you wrote in the "Conversations you would like to see your party having..." thread. That is so much better than the little silliness I wrote. I would love to have this conversation in my game, although it's already great to re-play it in my head from time to time. *continues melting*)

[melkathi]

Allerleihrau wrote...

melkathi wrote...

*snip*

Typical Wynnconsistency.

+10 approval

(By the way, I'm still melting because of the Zevran/Wynne dialogue you wrote in the "Conversations you would like to see your party having..." thread. That is so much better than the little silliness I wrote. I would love to have this conversation in my game, although it's already great to re-play it in my head from time to time. *continues melting*)

Thanks!  (there is no blush smiley!)

You might be interested in Sresla's latest blog fanfic. I noticed some of the other regulars to this thread posting there, so checked it out even though I normally keep well away from fanfiction.

[e-ver]

@ melkathi

I think there is one actually:   (Or maybe that one isn't blushing and I've just been using the wrong one all the time, I wouldn't put that past me, heh.) Thanks for the link to the blog.


@ all

I just read the Wynne fanclub thread and I am amazed how different people can perceive this character. My opinion on her is of course another one, but I can respect their opinions (even if I can't follow). In any case it was interesting to read. Thanks for the link to the thread melkathi, I didn't even know such a thing existed. *imagine Bodahn's voice here*

[melkathi]

Though that is an old thread someone just necroed. So I doubt the Wynne Fan Club has a standing army ready to face us.