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[Sabriana]

Or, maybe some (or most) have experienced what I experienced. Really and truly, in the first and half-way through my second play-through I liked her. Then I started making excuses for her, and the more information I got by choosing different dialogue, and I could no longer deny that she is very flawed.

Unlike Zevran, who knows and admits that he's done bad things, when you get to know him, and even Leliana to a point (even though she looks far to giddy and happy when she talks about stalking, torturing and killing men), Wynne never even thinks she is wrong, unwise, misguided, and brainwashed. The kicker for me was when I finally (2nd play) did her personal quest. What she said to Aneirin floored me (and my PC). Really.


*****Wynne personal quest spoiler heavy*****


Could there have been any worse advice for that elven mage? Especially considering that he was once hunted down and left for dead because he was branded a blood mage? No, I don't think so. She might as well have adviced him to slit his own throat. It would've been kinder.


****Unspoiled*****************

Some NPCs grow on you, and some ungrow (? -sorry missing english word). Wynne belongs to the latter, in my case.

[Reaverwind]

Sabriana wrote...

Or, maybe some (or most) have experienced what I experienced. Really and truly, in the first and half-way through my second play-through I liked her. Then I started making excuses for her, and the more information I got by choosing different dialogue, and I could no longer deny that she is very flawed.

Unlike Zevran, who knows and admits that he's done bad things, when you get to know him, and even Leliana to a point (even though she looks far to giddy and happy when she talks about stalking, torturing and killing men), Wynne never even thinks she is wrong, unwise, misguided, and brainwashed. The kicker for me was when I finally (2nd play) did her personal quest. What she said to Aneirin floored me (and my PC). Really.


*****Wynne personal quest spoiler heavy*****


Could there have been any worse advice for that elven mage? Especially considering that he was once hunted down and left for dead because he was branded a blood mage? No, I don't think so. She might as well have adviced him to slit his own throat. It would've been kinder.


****Unspoiled*****************

Some NPCs grow on you, and some ungrow (? -sorry missing english word). Wynne belongs to the latter, in my case.

It's even more jarring if you do her quest with a PC mage. When speaking to him, he tells Wynne she should look to the Warden instead ( Metagame much, Bioware? How does a recluse know my character is a Warden?)

Then later, Wynne has the gall to suggest the PC forego her Warden responsibilities to pursue Wynne's dream, and presumes to get upset when the PC has to not-so-gently remind her it doesn't work that way.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 19 février 2010 - 02:34 .

[Sabriana]

Reaverwind wrote...

Then later, Wynne has the gall to suggest the PC forego her Warden responsibilities to pursue Wynne's dream, and presumes to get upset when the PC has to not-so-gently remind her it doesn't work that way.

Whot? I've read something like that, but couldn't quite figure out what was meant. My mage (first play) liked Wynne, but missed her personal quest. My other PCs are HNF.

Are you serious? But isn't she the one who keeps pressuring my PCs about 'serving, protecting' the absolutely wonderful knights in shining armor Grey Wardens?

I call Wynneconsistency™

[ejoslin]

There is an assumption in the game that more conversation is happening than there is actually dialog to support. The talk with Anairan is a good example. The dialog supports that the conversation has actually been going on for some time, not just the few lines you get (city elf going back to the alienage is much like this as well when talking to her dad).



I also think gall is a good way to describe Wynne getting upset because the mage Warden doesn't want to go back to the circle. And I have no clue why Wynne would want that for the warden. Wynne herself escapes the circle whenever possible, but she seems to expect all other mages to lock themselves up. Wynnesistancy at its finest.

[Reaverwind]

Sabriana wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...
Then later, Wynne has the gall to suggest the PC forego her Warden responsibilities to pursue Wynne's dream, and presumes to get upset when the PC has to not-so-gently remind her it doesn't work that way.

Whot? I've read something like that, but couldn't quite figure out what was meant. My mage (first play) liked Wynne, but missed her personal quest. My other PCs are HNF.
Are you serious? But isn't she the one who keeps pressuring my PCs about 'serving, protecting' the absolutely wonderful knights in shining armor Grey Wardens?
I call Wynneconsistency™

Please  note this is a rough paraphrase of her dialogue back at camp, once you complate her quest:

Wynne: Have you given thought to what Aneirin said? There is wisdom in his words
PC: I'm a Grey Warden
Wynne: But you never left the Circle as he did. You've met apostates and templars, kings, etc You can take those experiences back to the Circle and improve it. It will take time, but it doesn't have to be a dream for you
PC: Don't you understand? I'm done with the Circle.
Wynne: [Miffed response - can't remember what it was]

Words in italics are exact quote.

[Reaverwind]

ejoslin wrote...

I also think gall is a good way to describe Wynne getting upset because the mage Warden doesn't want to go back to the circle. And I have no clue why Wynne would want that for the warden. Wynne herself escapes the circle whenever possible, but she seems to expect all other mages to lock themselves up. Wynnesistancy at its finest.

Wynne's expecting the Warden to return to the Circle was rather a rude surprise, especially after having played a HN to whom Wynne acknowledged that Wardens leave their former lives behind. The Warden should fully understand this, thanks to the nature of the Joining.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 19 février 2010 - 03:09 .

[Creature 1]

My characters are as likely to go help the Circle as they are to rebuild the Wardens, and both will happen when hell freezes over. Besides my first silly mage, who rebuilt the Wardens with Alistair, but she didn't have much sense.

[Sabriana]

@ Reaverwind

Thank you. I don't know what to say. What the....? Oh wow. I do hope she said it at least *after* the big battle. I do hope there is at least some sense in her that the Chantry and the Circle haven't obliterated.

How can this be explained? Why would she do such a thing?


@ Creature
Are our mages related, perchance?

Modifié par Sabriana, 19 février 2010 - 03:41 .

[Creature 1]

Sabriana wrote...
@ Creature
Are our mages related, perchance?

Maybe!  Having been snatched away from her family at a young age and taken to the Circle, she has no idea what her family background is! 

[Sabriana]

You know, that is actually something to think about. If a family had one mage child, could they have two? Would the chantry allow family members to reside in the same circle? Could it be that there are cousins, or maybe siblings running around, never knowing they are family?

Oh wow. I have to be careful not to let my imagination run away with me.

[Reaverwind]

Sabriana wrote...

@ Reaverwind

Thank you. I don't know what to say. What the....? Oh wow. I do hope she said it at least *after* the big battle. I do hope there is at least some sense in her that the Chantry and the Circle haven't obliterated.

Nope, you'll get this long before the big battle, though having said it afterward wouldn't help much. This is where Bioware gets dodgy with the lore. I'm under the distinct impression that joining the Wardens, especially due to the nature of the Joining, is rather a non-reversible thing. To quote Duncan, "There is no turning back." For Wynne to even suggest you forego being a Warden is a bit mind-boggling. On top of that, acting on behalf of the Circle has political ramifications for a Warden. Wynne is incredibly short-sighted for a "wise woman".

[Herr Uhl]

Why shouldn't they be able to have two mages? If they did not know each other from a previous life, then there is no need to keep them apart, unless they start bordering on incest.



I don't think they would send a known relative to another circle though.

[Creature 1]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Why shouldn't they be able to have two mages? If they did not know each other from a previous life, then there is no need to keep them apart, unless they start bordering on incest.

Well, mages aren't supposed to have children. . .

I don't think they would send a known relative to another circle though.

Probably would be simplest.  I think they wouldn't want you to have a relative in the Circle that you know about, because that would encourage loyalty to that person instead of the Circle as a whole. 

[Addai]

I didn't know that Wynne tries to get a PC mage to go back to the Circle. Alright, elven blood mage is going to recruit Wynne just so she can tell the old biddy where to stick her Circle Tower. This could be fun.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

[quote]Allerleihrau wrote...

Ah yes, Zevran's comments towards Wynne - if I didn't already love him to bits, I would without a doubt fall for him after hearing them. Just as she prattles on about responsibility with the Warden (never with Alistair though, should he not learn to take responsibility as well, he is a lot more immature than my Warden characters), she keeps nagging Zev about guilt. But he just knows not only how to deflect her, but how to make her uncomfortable at the same time. I only wish my character had dialogue options to make fun of her as well.

Zev and Wynne's banter has to be some of my favorite in the game. Underneath it all, in his own unique and very naughty way, Zev's banter is basically telling Wynne to get over herself and stop making judgements on people simply because she doesn't know as much as she likes to think she does. She thinks that just because he isn't retiring to a monastary and giving candy to orphans, he feels no guilt over his past, which is untrue. Zevran simply refuses to let the guilt rule him and cripple him, making him ineffective at anything.



[quote]Yes, I too wish I could have said something in their conversation, support Aneirin's plan to remain with the Dalish or tell her off for falling back into the role of his tutor, despite the fact that she failed pretty badly at it the first time. Or tell her afterwards as you say.[/quote]

As i said, my mage totally went off on her when she suggested I return to the circle, and she got really pissy and told her she could stuff the circle, that sad chapter of her life was forever, and Wynne, once again, got pissy. It pains me that I have to try and keep her approval relatively high and go through some convos with her so I can get her personal quest, just so I can point blank tell her off and rub the point home. But it's rewarding to do so.

I also wish i could have given Anerin a high-five and praise him for having the courage to leave the circle, and encourage him to keep up the good work.


[quote][quote]@Sabriana: While the dalish don't worship or revere Andraste, they do respect her as a a great hero of legend who led their people to victory against Tevinter and freedom from slavery, and gave them their second homeland. In the Codex and in conversations with the dalish, she is the only shemlen that is mentioned with respect, as she led the rebellion and made sure her promise to them was kept. It was the Chantry, formed many years after her death, that broke her promise and turned on the Dalish. So while a Dalish PC would not worship or revere the ashes, I think they would, out of respect for probably the only shem worth respect, would not violate her remains. [/quote]

Exactly, they are still only the remains of a dead woman, but of a dead woman who the Dalish respect.[/quote]

yeah. The Dalish don't seem like the type who are much into desecrating graves of figures they respect. Haven't played a dalish that far, but if I did, I don't think I'd do it. My dwarf, however, who found human religion and customs to be silly and superstitous, had no problem doing so.



[quote]Yep, poor Genitivi never made it back home for me. Shame about the reward though (I think you get a powerful rune if you seek him out in Denerim later?), but sometimes there are larger thingsat stake. And I just love the cutscene with your character throwing the knife, I never expected it to end up in his head.[/quote]

That was so funny. he turns around with a big knife sticking out of his head, I couldn't stop laughing. I'm so evil. I only regret you couldn't do that to more Chantry personnel. I'd be going postal on the chantries of ferelden in any playthrough. Even my human noble pretty much thought it all a crock, even if she didn't hate the Chantry so much as she thought it was a money making scam that she wished she had thought up first.



[quote]I am beginning to wonder if she truly means it, when she apologizes to the Warden about interfering in the relationship. Because you're right, there is definitely an inconsistency there. As long as it's nothing serious, she worries that it might interfere with your duty, but as soon as it is something that might truly keep you from doing something your duty requires (for example you or Alistair making the sacrifice, although she of course doesn't know about that). it's suddenly ok with her.
One might think that it's just prudery, but there are enough comments from her to indicate that she had her own share of casual sex.

So I am beginning to think that she just realized that she can do nothing to end the relationship and now tries to twist the situation around by giving her "blessing" - as if the Warden would need that. In a few years (I am sure she will outlive all of my other companions and probably give my character good advice when she travels to the Deep Roads for her Calling) Wynne will claim that the relationship was her idea all along and she encouraged the Warden to persue it in the first place.
[/quote]

That is another fascinating bit of insight. Her way of avoiding having to accept that she was wrong and a nosy cow. It seems in character: she makes it "OK" so that she can bless it, since she realizes she isn't going to force you to her way of thinking. It gives her the satisfaction of being right, and somehow, thinking you actually care what she thinks.

She really does exemplify the adage "misery loves company". Circle mages are not allowed loving, stable relationships, have their children taken away, and are very rarely allowed to marry or live normal lives outside the Circle. Thus, because she was denied all these things, she really hates the fact that she might see others enjoy what she was denied, right in front of her. It would ultimately make her see, up close and personal, the very life she was denied, and might make her have to shed the security blanket of the Circle's policies being for her own good, and accept the hard reality that her life was never her own.

This is especially true if your character is a mage.  Even if being a Warden ties you to a certain eventual fate, you still have a far freer and potentially more fulfilling life than you ever would have had at the Circle. I bet that really pisses Wynne off the most. She really seems to hate personal happieness and hope, since she never seems to have had much of her own.

[Sabriana]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Why shouldn't they be able to have two mages? If they did not know each other from a previous life, then there is no need to keep them apart, unless they start bordering on incest.

I don't think they would send a known relative to another circle though.

Well, thank you kindly Herr Uhl. That's just what my overactive imagination needed

Creature, known relatives perhaps not. That could be unwise, because mages bound by blood-ties could be troublesome.

@ Addai
Feeling a little vengeful, are we?

@ Skadi

That could very well be true. Especially having your child taken away and being helpless to struggle against that. That could unhinge a person, most likely one who is very self-absorbed in the first place.

Modifié par Sabriana, 19 février 2010 - 04:10 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sabriana wrote...

You know, that is actually something to think about. If a family had one mage child, could they have two? Would the chantry allow family members to reside in the same circle? Could it be that there are cousins, or maybe siblings running around, never knowing they are family?
Oh wow. I have to be careful not to let my imagination run away with me.

It certainly could happen. In the epilogue, if you kill Connor, isolde has a second child, a girl who....dun dun dah.... is also a mage. So it's concievable that had Connor lived, and isolde and Eamon decided to have another little ankle-biter, you'd have two Guerrin mages. There's plenty of indication that magic is most of the time, a genetic trait, and runs in families, sometimes skipping a generation like it did for Isolde.

As others have said, it seems likely they would be seperated. the Circle is very much opposed to any sort of emotional bonding amongst mages, hence their restrictions on marriage. the bonds of love and family have always been the strongest in the human mind and soul, and dictatorships and tyrants in history often implemented policies and practices to break those bonds, making their subjects easier to control by shifting that love and affection towards obedience and adoration for the state and collective. Two related mages in the same Circle might be more loyal and attached to their kin than to the Circle and Chantry.

It's actually a worse form of mind control than what is done to the templars with lyrium, as they are inflicting control more subtly and permanently.

[Reaverwind]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

This is especially true if your character is a mage.  Even if being a Warden ties you to a certain eventual fate, you still have a far freer and potentially more fulfilling life than you ever would have had at the Circle. I bet that really pisses Wynne off the most. She really seems to hate personal happieness and hope, since she never seems to have had much of her own.

I completely agree there, which is why my mages whole-heartedly embrace being Wardens, even if they don't exactly join voluntarily and their ends are almost set in stone. It's far better than being imprisoned at the Tower for the rest of their lives. Wynne can go stuff it.

[Addai]

Sabriana wrote...

@ Addai
Feeling a little vengeful, are we?

Just exploring my options.    I liked Wynne and took her everywhere on my 1st playthrough or two, back when I didn't really know how to use a mage other than to say "heal me, please."  Once I learned that, Morrigan's usefulness became more apparent and I started to realize I liked her character much more, too.  I actually think that it's a testament to the writers that there is this possibility, a very solid one, that Wynne is actually possessed by a demon of pride and could derail the Warden while the "maleficar" in camp is much more grounded.

If it turns out that Morrigan actually saves the world with her god baby, I am going to cheer.

[Sabriana]

I so agree Addai. Cheers to the writers. My silly mage actually liked Wynne and looked up to her while taking a very dark view of Morrigan.

Subsequent play-throughs almost reversed that. Morrigan has her faults, and her opinions and approvals/disapprovals can be tiresome, but she has her very touching moments.

My mage never got the mirror for her, somehow she didn't see that the merchant had it. My HN rogue did, and she was shocked at how Morrigan changed, if only for a moment. Her facial expressions when given the mirror are heartwarming, and more genuine that anything Wynne ever spouts out.

[mousestalker]

For all the Wynne hate (or dislike) here, I can not hate her.



Two points.



One. They took her son away from her. I think that broke her. She thinks she is a failure on so many levels.



Two. She is the voice of externally imposed duty. Accept the fate ordained for you and live that out. In that sense she is a lot like Sten. Loghain is the voice of internally imposed duty. Which makes the interactions between the two very interesting.



Wynne can be annoying, but I pity her. She fought and lost. I think she sees her role as seeing to it that her students do not get broken the way she was.



Look at what she says about love as being ultimately selfish. This is a woman who has never been allowed to love. She has no understanding of what it is.

[ejoslin]

Wynne says she knows more about the pitfalls of love than she cares to reveal. As broken as she was, and yes, I cannot imagine having a child taken from me, but she still tries to corral all mages into the same life. She tries to escape from the circle whenever possible, but she does not want other mages to have the same freedom. She thinks, much like Keili actually, that mages are too dangerous (she's not nuts like Keili though) and need to be imprisoned. All mages except for her, that is.

[Sabriana]

Oh lordy, Keili. I so much want to dislike her for being a brainwashed sheep, but I can't. I wish my PCs could make her tranquil on the spot so she could at least have some kind of peace. I think it's downright cruel of the circle to let her go on like this. Put her out of her misery for goodness sakes.

But I can see that she would delight the Chantry. A mage who dislikes herself and her brethren just as much as they do.

[Addai]

mousestalker wrote...

Look at what she says about love as being ultimately selfish. This is a woman who has never been allowed to love. She has no understanding of what it is.

My question is:  Does she ever learn any different?  Does she change at all during the game?  I can't see that she does.  She could, if she would listen to anyone else, even the "childish" Warden.

[Sabriana]

I agree. She never learns. She's not even willing to learn anything. She doesn't even see her own contradictions. A hard life? What about Zevran, or Aneirin. Now those are tough lives. She has a sense of entitlement, and nothing will change that. If things don't turn out the way she wants/predicts, she turns it so it seems like they do.

What about RtO? I don't own the DLC, but I watched the Wynne/Alistair conversation on YouTube. I was very strange and very creepy, to say the least.