1396 réponses à ce sujet

[melkathi]

ejoslin wrote...

So many people just don't talk to the characters enough. You'll see what you want to, but there's a lot there with all of them. You can tell just by how shocked some people are if, say, one doesn't like Wynne and views her as a sanctimonious busybody rather than as a wise counselor. But that IS part of Wynne's personality, though you don't have to uncover it.

Funny though isn't it?

Sten, Oghren, Zevran: if you don't talk to them and really get to know them, you can't really like them.

Wynne: if you talk to her and really get to know her, you can't really like her.

[mousestalker]

melkathi wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

So many people just don't talk to the characters enough. You'll see what you want to, but there's a lot there with all of them. You can tell just by how shocked some people are if, say, one doesn't like Wynne and views her as a sanctimonious busybody rather than as a wise counselor. But that IS part of Wynne's personality, though you don't have to uncover it.

Funny though isn't it?

Sten, Oghren, Zevran: if you don't talk to them and really get to know them, you can't really like them.

Wynne: if you talk to her and really get to know her, you can't really like her.

I also don't think you can hate her. I think she is talking to herself more than she is speaking to you when she gets preachy. She says things like "I like to think things happen for the best" to give herself hope that her son had a good home with loving parents. To help herself get over the tremendous defeat at Ostagar and Uldred's murdering of her friends at the Circle. I think she doesn't want to quit because she wants to have achieved something good at the end of her life. And she wants the PC mage to make right what went so horribly wrong at the Circle. The Circle may have been a prison for her, but it was also a refuge. 

Another fact to think about. Mage Wilhelm had a wife, a house of his own and a son. Wynne was allowed none of those. How exactly did he get those privileges?

Wynne can be annoying. She definitely has no idea about what love truly is. Her perceptions are often off. But if you get to know her, she doesn't deserve hatred.

Modifié par mousestalker, 20 février 2010 - 02:03 .

[melkathi]

mousestalker wrote...

Another fact to think about. Mage Wilhelm had a wife, a house of his own and a son. Wynne was allowed none of those. How exactly did he get those privileges?

You'll have to read Stolen Throne for that answer.
Or I can send you a PM if you want the spoilers

[mousestalker]

melkathi wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

Another fact to think about. Mage Wilhelm had a wife, a house of his own and a son. Wynne was allowed none of those. How exactly did he get those privileges?

You'll have to read Stolen Throne for that answer.
Or I can send you a PM if you want the spoilers

I've read it. That question was by way of being rhetorical. 
By way of nothing, I truly enjoy Shale's character, comments and history....

[Cuddlezarro]

Shales awesome...I found her bird jokes to get stale pretty fast but I like her character and personality plus she looks great with brilliant lightning crystals

[Sabriana]

I liked her in the beginning, now I severely dislike her. Not everyone who looks like a well-meaning, wise grandmom is one. She is severely damaged, and her advise is not only to be taken with many, many grains of salt, but in some cases, deadly for the advisee.

Like for Aneirin

Like for the mage PC

Like for Ferelden.

Her dialogue with Alistair in RtO is not only disgusting, it is severely inappropriate. No, no one can tell me that she just wanted to 'lighten up' the situation. This is Ostagar. There is no 'lightening up' or 'diversion'. Especially not through sexual innuendo. An immature teenager might be forgiven, but not a supposedly 'wise' grandmother.



My favorite Shale-line:

"Let's go squish something. It *is* the girlish thing to do, is it not?"

[nos_astra]

Sabriana wrote...
Not everyone who looks like a well-meaning, wise grandmom is one.

You honestly think Wynne isn't well-meaning? If I'd hate everyone who ever gave advice to me - meaning well but causing damage nontheless - I'd end up hating a lot of people.

And here I thought old people are often smiled about because they do what Wynne does. Isn't that why there is this proverb about you having two ears, so advice can go in to the left and go out to the right, if you don't agree?

Modifié par klarabella, 20 février 2010 - 10:09 .

[Sabriana]

Yes I honestly think she isn't well-meaning, as in wanting what's best for others. She is certainly well-meaning in wanting what's best for herself.



I am old enough to know that some advice should be considered, sometimes strongly considered. The source of the advice/suggestion plays a vital role as well.



Blindly following any advice/suggestion is never recommendable. Especially if it comes from someone who doesn't know you well. Wynne doesn't know my PCs at all, not even the mage PC. She even says so in game, in case you don't believe that.



The (sometimes) deadly advice she doles out it not the only reason I dislike her. There are many reasons. They are made quite clear in this thread, so I'll not repeat them over and over.

[Maria Caliban]

melkathi wrote...

Funny though isn't it?

Sten, Oghren, Zevran: if you don't talk to them and really get to know them, you can't really like them.

Wynne: if you talk to her and really get to know her, you can't really like her.

I like Wynne, and I had her in my party the entire game. And I had all the conversations I could with her and did her side-quest.

Sabriana wrote...

Her dialogue with Alistair in RtO is not only disgusting, it is severely inappropriate.

As I understand it, she flirts with Alistair in Return to Ostigar. I consider that out of character, especially as she had a different writer in RtO than Origins.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 20 février 2010 - 11:41 .

[ejoslin]

Wynne's major problem, to me, is her ego. People who like her have never done anything she doesn't like, apparently, because she can be awful. She says she wants to follow the warden, but she actually wants to be the background leader. She refuses to trust the warden and gets angry when told her advice is not wanted, even if you do what she is supporting.



This wouldn't be such a big problem if it weren't for her hypocrisy. She is quick to see and point out the errors of the ways of others without seeing her own flaws. She believes strongly that mages should be imprisoned in the circle, yet takes every opportunity herself to leave.



Anyway, I'm not saying she's a horrible character, but she IS flawed. And I like it that she is. But that doesn't mean she doesn't annoy me.

[Reaverwind]

klarabella wrote...

Sabriana wrote...
Not everyone who looks like a well-meaning, wise grandmom is one.

You honestly think Wynne isn't well-meaning? If I'd hate everyone who ever gave advice to me - meaning well but causing damage nontheless - I'd end up hating a lot of people.

And here I thought old people are often smiled about because they do what Wynne does. Isn't that why there is this proverb about you having two ears, so advice can go in to the left and go out to the right, if you don't agree?

Er, no. What Wynne does is play preachy school marm (Morrigan nailed it). Much of her "advice" is inappropriate, given she doesn't have all the facts, especially when it comes to how Grey Wardens really roll. (It'd schock her to learn that wardens have done worse than annull Circles to stop the Darkspawn.)

ejoslin wrote...

Wynne's major problem, to me, is her ego. People who like her have never done anything she doesn't like, apparently, because she can be awful. She says she wants to follow the warden, but she actually wants to be the background leader. She refuses to trust the warden and gets angry when told her advice is not wanted, even if you do what she is supporting.

Exactly.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 20 février 2010 - 12:27 .

[Maria Caliban]

Eh, I also like Morrigan, who thought she knew best and could be hypocritical at times.

[mousestalker]

What was the tip off about her was what she said at the end of the Circle quest to Irving. He asks if the rescue was her doing and she graciously allows that she 'had help'. Which is mighty big of her considering that she was trapped almost the entire time in the Fade. /sarcasm

[Reaverwind]

mousestalker wrote...

What was the tip off about her was what she said at the end of the Circle quest to Irving. He asks if the rescue was her doing and she graciously allows that she 'had help'. Which is mighty big of her considering that she was trapped almost the entire time in the Fade. /sarcasm

If you tell Cullen you'd rather spare maleficarum than risk killing an innocent, you gain further insight into Wynne's character. Suffice to say she'd make a poor Warden.

[ejoslin]

mousestalker wrote...

What was the tip off about her was what she said at the end of the Circle quest to Irving. He asks if the rescue was her doing and she graciously allows that she 'had help'. Which is mighty big of her considering that she was trapped almost the entire time in the Fade. /sarcasm

Oh, I agree with this so much.  Couple it with what she said in the fade, where she was so quick to blame and accuse the warden who did nothing but try to help her, and she actually does not come off as saintly, not even at the beginning.  Her telling Irving she had help . . .  She really does overestimate her own role in the positive, and is quick to blame in the negative.

Take Zevran to the tower and see how kind he is to her when they meet as well -- it puts a much worse light on how she starts in on him in their banters, trying to become his redeemer.  

Edit:

Reaverwind wrote...

If you tell Cullen you'd rather spare maleficarum than risk killing an innocent, you gain further insight into Wynne's character. Suffice to say she'd make a poor Warden.

What Wynne wants is for the Warden to be just like the legends, but the ones that didn't really happen (as in the story that Wynne told that was metaphoric), and she wants to be the one who makes that happen.  No one should die but the grey wardens, who is there to protect them all.  A grey warden falling in love?  That can't happen, because they may choose to run away and not die or something.  There are companions there that are willing to die, and in fact would want to die instead of the Warden, but Wynne . . . has her own particular brand of hero worship!

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 février 2010 - 12:12 .

[Reaverwind]

ejoslin wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

What was the tip off about her was what she said at the end of the Circle quest to Irving. He asks if the rescue was her doing and she graciously allows that she 'had help'. Which is mighty big of her considering that she was trapped almost the entire time in the Fade. /sarcasm

Oh, I agree with this so much.  Couple it with what she said in the fade, where she was so quick to blame and accuse the warden who did nothing but try to help her, and she actually does not come off as saintly, not even at the beginning.  Her telling Irving she had help . . .  She really does overestimate her own role in the positive, and is quick to blame in the negative.

Take Zevran to the tower and see how kind he is to her when they meet as well -- it puts a much worse light on how she starts in on him in their banters, trying to become his redeemer.  

Indeed. If you want a real shocker, have Zevran in the party when you agree with Cullen about annulling the Circle. My jaw dropped to the floor. Cold-blooded assassin, my ass.

[ejoslin]

Reaverwind wrote...

[Indeed. If you want a real shocker, have Zevran in the party when you agree with Cullen about annulling the Circle. My jaw dropped to the floor. Cold-blooded assassin, my ass.

YES!  Now, that's a huge difference between real compassion and Wynne's platitudes.  You'll take his approval hit for even considering it since you can't let him know you agree with him (unlike when you side with the werewolves), but when Zevran makes a case, he backs it up.  And you take the approval hit before you can spare the mages (unlike Wynne and the slavers, where you get the approval hit after you finish killing them).

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 février 2010 - 12:15 .

[melkathi]

The tower, though annoying, can not begin to rival Guardian and fem City Elf...

[ejoslin]

melkathi wrote...

The tower, though annoying, can not begin to rival Guardian and fem City Elf...

THAT is what started my Wynne hate in fullest.  Before then I found her annoying.  But yes, there is no more horrible than Wynne there.

[mousestalker]

melkathi wrote...

The tower, though annoying, can not begin to rival Guardian and fem City Elf...

The whole 'did you fail Shianni or did you really really fail Shianni'? thing or something else?

Edit: I can not remember what she says (I've only had her there once and that was a while back).

Modifié par mousestalker, 20 février 2010 - 12:38 .

[ejoslin]

mousestalker wrote...

melkathi wrote...

The tower, though annoying, can not begin to rival Guardian and fem City Elf...

The whole 'did you fail Shianni or did you really really fail Shianni'? thing or something else?

Here is a cut and paste from this thread  actually -- my original take on that whole thing.

ejoslin wrote...
Hmmm, city elf origin.  You and your friends are kidnapped by the Arl's son.  You are locked in a room, your friends who were kidnapped with you are taken away.  Your cousin manages to get to you, slides you a sword, and you end up having to kill your way through the castle.  You see your fiance cut down in front of you.  You continue going, fighting, just doing your best to get to your friends.  But you're too late, despite everything, and your cousin is already raped.  I chose in my origin to step forward and take the blame completely for the deaths.  

You get to the guantlet, and the guardian asks his usual question -- did you fail Shianni.  Well, my first response was, No, Vaughn was the villain.  Wynne pipes up, "It's hard to know how your actions really have an effect on the outcome," like there was something else the PC could have done.  So I reload and say, "Well, I guess I could have run faster," despite, of course, having to fight all the way there.  To which Wynne replies, "You need to accept your failings."  The PC did nothing wrong, at all, yet Wynne, who had asked for and gotten the story, still had to be extremely sanctimonious at that point.

Of course, she says those things no matter what, which is why she normally sits at camp during that quest.  It's beyond obnoxious.  And quite funny, actually.  I wish the Guardian had brought up Aineiran to her instead of the fact that she basically spouts platitudes.  Of course, maybe that was the point -- but if it were, it was lost on her.

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 février 2010 - 12:39 .

[mousestalker]

ejoslin wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

melkathi wrote...

The tower, though annoying, can not begin to rival Guardian and fem City Elf...

The whole 'did you fail Shianni or did you really really fail Shianni'? thing or something else?

Here is a cut and paste from this thread  actually -- my original take on that whole thing.

ejoslin wrote...
Hmmm, city elf origin.  You and your friends are kidnapped by the Arl's son.  You are locked in a room, your friends who were kidnapped with you are taken away.  Your cousin manages to get to you, slides you a sword, and you end up having to kill your way through the castle.  You see your fiance cut down in front of you.  You continue going, fighting, just doing your best to get to your friends.  But you're too late, despite everything, and your cousin is already raped.  I chose in my origin to step forward and take the blame completely for the deaths.  

You get to the guantlet, and the guardian asks his usual question -- did you fail Shianni.  Well, my first response was, No, Vaughn was the villain.  Wynne pipes up, "It's hard to know how your actions really have an effect on the outcome," like there was something else the PC could have done.  So I reload and say, "Well, I guess I could have run faster," despite, of course, having to fight all the way there.  To which Wynne replies, "You need to accept your failings."  The PC did nothing wrong, at all, yet Wynne, who had asked for and gotten the story, still had to be extremely sanctimonious at that point.

Of course, she says those things no matter what, which is why she normally sits at camp during that quest.  It's beyond obnoxious.  And quite funny, actually.  I wish the Guardian had brought up Aineiran to her instead of the fact that she basically spouts platitudes.  Of course, maybe that was the point -- but if it were, it was lost on her.

Gotcha.

It's a pity the game doesn't let you say, "Well I didn't have momentum so I couldn't stab the guards any faster."

[Reaverwind]

ejoslin wrote...

melkathi wrote...

The tower, though annoying, can not begin to rival Guardian and fem City Elf...

THAT is what started my Wynne hate in fullest.  Before then I found her annoying.  But yes, there is no more horrible than Wynne there.

LOL, I started hating her even before rolling a city elf. What did it for me was playing a mage who helped find Aneirin, right after playing the human noble origin. Having Wynne push her dreams for the Circle on my character, after having played a character to whom she acknowledged Wardens leave their former lives behind, made me see her for the hypocrite she is.

And imo, Wynne's gauntlet lines are equally inappropriate for the mage. She was promptly booted from my group.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 20 février 2010 - 12:53 .

[ejoslin]

You have to wonder if Wynne in the gauntlet is more speaking to herself than the Warden. She obviously wants the Warden to take the blame for the action of someone else who destroyed their life and see it as a failing, which doesn't make that much sense unless you view it in the context of Aneirin. After all, what Wynne did to him is very much similar to what happened to the warden in the origin (except maybe Dalish, but even to some extent, Dalish). Someone else's actions basically ends the Warden's life.



Accepting that what happened to the Warden was someone else's fault entirely may make Wynne have to face what she did to Aneirin as her fault entirely. It makes sense unless you take her to the Gauntlet after she's made her peace with him, but the writing can't account for everything I suppose.



I hope this is somewhat clear and not just rambling.

[mousestalker]

That's an excellent point.