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[Reaverwind]

ejoslin wrote...

You have to wonder if Wynne in the gauntlet is more speaking to herself than the Warden. She obviously wants the Warden to take the blame for the action of someone else who destroyed their life and see it as a failing, which doesn't make that much sense unless you view it in the context of Aneirin. After all, what Wynne did to him is very much similar to what happened to the warden in the origin (except maybe Dalish, but even to some extent, Dalish). Someone else's actions basically ends the Warden's life.

Accepting that what happened to the Warden was someone else's fault entirely may make Wynne have to face what she did to Aneirin as her fault entirely. It makes sense unless you take her to the Gauntlet after she's made her peace with him, but the writing can't account for everything I suppose.

I hope this is somewhat clear and not just rambling.

No, I see what you're saying, and it's a good point. Too bad Wynne just doesn't learn, especially when it comes placing to blame. Yes, she is responsible for her treatment of Aneirin, but HE is ultimately responsible for his decision to flee the Circle. Your warden may or may not have voluntarily helped Jowan, but ultimately Jowan is responsible for his decision to take the risks he did. That it went badly is a moot point.

[ejoslin]

Reaverwind wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

You have to wonder if Wynne in the gauntlet is more speaking to herself than the Warden. She obviously wants the Warden to take the blame for the action of someone else who destroyed their life and see it as a failing, which doesn't make that much sense unless you view it in the context of Aneirin. After all, what Wynne did to him is very much similar to what happened to the warden in the origin (except maybe Dalish, but even to some extent, Dalish). Someone else's actions basically ends the Warden's life.

Accepting that what happened to the Warden was someone else's fault entirely may make Wynne have to face what she did to Aneirin as her fault entirely. It makes sense unless you take her to the Gauntlet after she's made her peace with him, but the writing can't account for everything I suppose.

I hope this is somewhat clear and not just rambling.

No, I see what you're saying, and it's a good point. Too bad Wynne just doesn't learn, especially when it comes placing to blame. Yes, she is responsible for her treatment of Aneirin, but HE is ultimately responsible for his decision to flee the Circle. Your warden may or may not have voluntarily helped Jowan, but ultimately Jowan is responsible for his decision to take the risks he did. That it went badly is a moot point.

Yeh, with the mage origin, it's not quite a cut and dry unless Irving gets involved. With the rest, it's clearly the actions of others that lead the Warden to being recruited or conscripted, and usually the Warden is being totally screwed and just trying to survive a completely horrible situation.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Wynne's responses in the Gauntlet are generic, she said pretty much the same thing to my mage and human. Which is why I usually tell the guardian to ****** off and mind his own damned business. I think all the companions have the same responses to all the origins, depending on which dialogue option you take. Generally, though, i stopped taking Wynne to the Gauntlet and instead, like taking Alistair, Zevran and Oghren. Especially Oghren, his response when grilled kinda makes me wanna cry. Zevran's is a telling bit, that hints at things he has not yet said.



I'm rather mad that the guardian didn't ask my dog anything. Damnit. I want to know what my Dog is thinking!

[Reaverwind]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Wynne's responses in the Gauntlet are generic, she said pretty much the same thing to my mage and human. Which is why I usually tell the guardian to ****** off and mind his own damned business. I think all the companions have the same responses to all the origins, depending on which dialogue option you take. Generally, though, i stopped taking Wynne to the Gauntlet and instead, like taking Alistair, Zevran and Oghren. Especially Oghren, his response when grilled kinda makes me wanna cry. Zevran's is a telling bit, that hints at things he has not yet said.

I'm rather mad that the guardian didn't ask my dog anything. Damnit. I want to know what my Dog is thinking!

I love Shale's response to the Guardian, too. Shale is now one of my fav companions. And Zevran-Shale conversations are pure gold, especially the one where Shale berates Zevran for being a "Crow".

[Sabriana]

I am so glad that I'm not the only one. I felt slighted for my dog. Why was he left out. Couldn't the Guardian at least acknowledge him? Would that have been so hard?

Zevran, Oghren, Alistair, or Zevran, Oghren, Sten. These combo's are my favorite for the Gauntlet. However, Shale's comment is priceless too "Why do these religious types always go for the guilt feeling?" (paraphrased).



@ Mousestalker

"Sorry, I didn't have 'momentum' yet, and couldn't run faster"?

That is utterly hilarious. It's a good thing I've stopped eating and/or drinking while reading new posts.



Morrigan isn't half as bad as Wynne. At least she has some great redeeming moments, where she can't help but let some of her deeper emotions come to light.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Morrigan is a ****, and can be pretty irrational and a bit hypocritical at times, but she does not try to preach at me or think that she is an expert on things she has no experience or knowledge of. When in a relationship with Alistair, she stays in character and scoffs the notion of finding any redeeming qualities about him, but other than that, she says that despite your love being vomit worthy, she can understand needing something to help lighten up your life and distract you some from the gravity of your situation. Even if I did get some disapproval from her, i found her comments far more endearing than Wynne's preach-fest.



Morrigan might disapprove of your every non-puppy kicking descision, but she never turns on you or tries to kill you over it, and her influence is easyly regained through gifts and personal quests. Hell, I've started taking her with me more because I started missing seeing "Morrigan disapproves -5" every 10 minutes. It's just not the same.



And whatever her faults, she is quite unashamedly brash about who and what she is. I love taking her to the gauntlet and having her tell the guardian off, and that she isn't going to play his silly guilt games.



In my mage playthroughs, Morrigan always ends up being my best friend and unofficial "hero", where as Wynne ends up being a reminder of just why I am so glad I left the Circle when I did.

[ejoslin]

I can't be the only person who lets Wynne live JUST to hear her say, "There's a tenderness to his gaze that I haven't seen until now." It's the only reason she does. If I mess up and get her first lecture about someone else, it's time to defile the ashes . . .

[Sabriana]

No, you are not the only one. It's one of my favorite lines, and the fact that my PC can tell Wynne that she saw it right away, gives me....ah, I mean her, deep satisfaction.

[Reaverwind]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Morrigan is a ****, and can be pretty irrational and a bit hypocritical at times, but she does not try to preach at me or think that she is an expert on things she has no experience or knowledge of. When in a relationship with Alistair, she stays in character and scoffs the notion of finding any redeeming qualities about him, but other than that, she says that despite your love being vomit worthy, she can understand needing something to help lighten up your life and distract you some from the gravity of your situation. Even if I did get some disapproval from her, i found her comments far more endearing than Wynne's preach-fest.

Morrigan might disapprove of your every non-puppy kicking descision, but she never turns on you or tries to kill you over it, and her influence is easyly regained through gifts and personal quests. Hell, I've started taking her with me more because I started missing seeing "Morrigan disapproves -5" every 10 minutes. It's just not the same.

And whatever her faults, she is quite unashamedly brash about who and what she is. I love taking her to the gauntlet and having her tell the guardian off, and that she isn't going to play his silly guilt games.

In my mage playthroughs, Morrigan always ends up being my best friend and unofficial "hero", where as Wynne ends up being a reminder of just why I am so glad I left the Circle when I did.

I don't particularly care for Morrigan, but sometimes her comments are spot-on. Just have her along when you side with Cullen - it's both revealing and funny.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I hate having to drag Wynne through the tower, the only other option being killing her. I'd rather have the option to make her drop the barrier and leave her behind, so I can stick with the party I have. Is there a mod out there that lets you do this, or is she doomed to be locked in unless you kill her?



I sided with the templars once for the achievement, then reloaded, and Morrigan was not in my party because I was already a mage and had to take Wynne to boot. I needed a tank and rogue, so I had Alistair and respeced Zevran. I would have much rather taken Morrigan than Wynne. Especially when you run into the templar who is enchanted by the desire demon.

[Reaverwind]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I hate having to drag Wynne through the tower, the only other option being killing her. I'd rather have the option to make her drop the barrier and leave her behind, so I can stick with the party I have. Is there a mod out there that lets you do this, or is she doomed to be locked in unless you kill her?

I sided with the templars once for the achievement, then reloaded, and Morrigan was not in my party because I was already a mage and had to take Wynne to boot. I needed a tank and rogue, so I had Alistair and respeced Zevran. I would have much rather taken Morrigan than Wynne. Especially when you run into the templar who is enchanted by the desire demon.

Once you defeat the Sloth Demon, you have the option to change your party in the area near Niall's corpse. You can also boot Wynne at that point. You can also change your party near where you pick up Wynne, but unfortunately booting Wynne at that point isn't an option during the Broken Circle questline.

[Sabriana]

Reaverwind wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I hate having to drag Wynne through the tower, the only other option being killing her. I'd rather have the option to make her drop the barrier and leave her behind, so I can stick with the party I have. Is there a mod out there that lets you do this, or is she doomed to be locked in unless you kill her?

I sided with the templars once for the achievement, then reloaded, and Morrigan was not in my party because I was already a mage and had to take Wynne to boot. I needed a tank and rogue, so I had Alistair and respeced Zevran. I would have much rather taken Morrigan than Wynne. Especially when you run into the templar who is enchanted by the desire demon.

Once you defeat the Sloth Demon, you have the option to change your party in the area near Niall's corpse. You can also boot Wynne at that point. You can also change your party near where you pick up Wynne, but unfortunately booting Wynne at that point isn't an option during the Broken Circle questline.

Well that's good to know. At least she can't take credit for being the driving force behind the rescue of the tower with Irving. Goshalmity, that always bothered me. I never even checked if there was a possible change of party members. Silly me.

Although there's still the "we found each other in this place". Gah! We? Really? Last time I checked, my PC found everyone, and she had to go through some pretty tough stuff to do so.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I hate having to drag Wynne through the tower, the only other option being killing her. I'd rather have the option to make her drop the barrier and leave her behind, so I can stick with the party I have. Is there a mod out there that lets you do this, or is she doomed to be locked in unless you kill her?

I sided with the templars once for the achievement, then reloaded, and Morrigan was not in my party because I was already a mage and had to take Wynne to boot. I needed a tank and rogue, so I had Alistair and respeced Zevran. I would have much rather taken Morrigan than Wynne. Especially when you run into the templar who is enchanted by the desire demon.

Once you defeat the Sloth Demon, you have the option to change your party in the area near Niall's corpse. You can also boot Wynne at that point. You can also change your party near where you pick up Wynne, but unfortunately booting Wynne at that point isn't an option during the Broken Circle questline.

Well that's good to know. At least she can't take credit for being the driving force behind the rescue of the tower with Irving. Goshalmity, that always bothered me. I never even checked if there was a possible change of party members. Silly me.

Although there's still the "we found each other in this place". Gah! We? Really? Last time I checked, my PC found everyone, and she had to go through some pretty tough stuff to do so.

The main problem with swapping Wynne out there, though, is you can't tell her to stay in the circle.  She just shows up at camp.

Edit: Heh, Wynne has no clue about the five other demons you defeated just to rescue your party!  My warden is FAR too modest 

Second edit: Finishing up the fade now!  Since my mage is only level 13, she's going to have to do a couple blood sacrifices to Wynne during the Uldred fight -- no blood wound yet

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 février 2010 - 05:31 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Oooh, I'll have to try that one. Thanks. If you side with the templars and agree with Cullen after kicking Wynne out, what happens to her? Does she turn on you when you are done with the quest, like when she leaves after defiling the ashes, or does she just sit in camp and do nothing?



Though it would be nice to boot her before the Sloth demon, her whole dream is boring and annoying, all emo and such. Id rather see the dreams of companions I like instead of having to see hers every damned time. A shame.

[ejoslin]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Oooh, I'll have to try that one. Thanks. If you side with the templars and agree with Cullen after kicking Wynne out, what happens to her? Does she turn on you when you are done with the quest, like when she leaves after defiling the ashes, or does she just sit in camp and do nothing?

Though it would be nice to boot her before the Sloth demon, her whole dream is boring and annoying, all emo and such. Id rather see the dreams of companions I like instead of having to see hers every damned time. A shame.

Depending on WHERE you side with the templars, Wynne may actually be locked into the encounter killing all surviving mages . . .  So much for defending her home!  But if she's not in your party when you do Uldred (though you STILL get an annoying comment from her . ..  grrrrr), she just shows up at camp.  I'll check what happens siding with Cullen if she's not in your party within the hour, though.  I just have one more demon to kill before the sloth one!

[Reaverwind]

ejoslin wrote...


The main problem with swapping Wynne out there, though, is you can't tell her to stay in the circle.  She just shows up at camp.

So I noticed. That's why I sometimes side with Cullen - it leads to Wynne's ultimate demise and inability to claim credit, and I can still march upstairs and save the Circle. I'm surprised some flags don't get set by Cullen's dialogue to change the way the battle flows. *shrug*


Edit:

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Oooh, I'll have to try that one. Thanks. If you side with the templars and agree with Cullen after kicking Wynne out, what happens to her? Does she turn on you when you are done with the quest, like when she leaves after defiling the ashes, or does she just sit in camp and do nothing?

No such luck. I've tried that - she still ends up in camp. grrrrr

Modifié par Reaverwind, 20 février 2010 - 05:35 .

[Cuddlezarro]

I find it funny how easily Wynn the "senior mage" fell for the demons trick in the fade yet Sten who isnt even a mage was completely self aware that every thing wasnt real

[Sabriana]

Well..., hurry up then, Ejoslin, rofl.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

Well..., hurry up then, Ejoslin, rofl.

Hahahaha, I know, I keep windowing out to chat on the forums and on IM.  So I'm being POKEY!

[Sabriana]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

I find it funny how easily Wynn the "senior mage" fell for the demons trick in the fade yet Sten who isnt even a mage was completely self aware that every thing wasnt real

Good point. I've never even thought of that. I do wonder why Oghren is captured though. I thought dwarfs don't go into the fade, ever.
But still, his fate nightmare made he like him lots and lots the very first time I took him to the tower. I'm not an 'awww'er (unless it involves a certain party member, that is), but there I was, feeling so very bad for the fellow.

[Cuddlezarro]

also another thing

I told Oghren to quite literally "shut up" during the sacred ashes quest when he was talking about slaying the bloody dragon infront of Kolgrim (you can imagine how he reacted it was rather hilarious)

I lost ZERO approval for telling him to shut his mouth

you tell Wynn to mind her own business BAM -18 lol

Good point. I've never even thought of that. I do wonder why Oghren is
captured though. I thought dwarfs don't go into the fade, ever.

according to David gaider Dwarves cant enter the fade NATUALLY however they can be forced to enter the fade through unnatual means (like the powerful sloth demon in the tower)

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 20 février 2010 - 05:41 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Thank you, ejoslin, I shall be eager to find out what she says/does.



Wynne not realizing she was in the Fade actually struck me the first time as odd. I mean, she's a mage, a high ranking one with lots of years of experience, yet she can't see that it's all an illusion. It is especially weird as, later on, you find out that she is possesed/co-habiting with a a supposedly friendly fade spirit. I mean, certainly, if she wasn't bright enough to see the illusion, wouldn't the Fade sprit hit her with a clue-bat instead?



Bummer she just ends up in your camp. Oh well. I can always go defiling ashes later on, but I'll wait until I'm done with Anerin's quest, so i can meet him, give him a high five for having maturity and a spine, and get his nifty amulet. And then tell Wynne to go stuff herself when she tells me I should go back to the tower. After that, the fun is over.

[ejoslin]

Ok, if Wynne isn't in the party, she doesn't attack. You STILL get her annoying comment, but that's ok. Now back to pick her up so I can use some blood magic and have her show her dedication to ending the blight and aiding the grey wardens.

[Sabriana]

Ah, sarcasm. It's such a lovely kind of humor.

Thanks Ejoslin. I still would so love to have the PC give in to Zevran though. He makes such a wonderful agent for the mages. His arguments are dead on.

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Wynne not realizing she was in the Fade actually struck me the first time as odd. I mean, she's a mage, a high ranking one with lots of years of experience, yet she can't see that it's all an illusion. It is especially weird as, later on, you find out that she is possesed/co-habiting with a a supposedly friendly fade spirit. I mean, certainly, if she wasn't bright enough to see the illusion, wouldn't the Fade sprit hit her with a clue-bat instead?

Her pride is her downfall here, too.  If you tell her she's in the Fade, she responds with that "I've always have an affinity for the Fade" line and then goes back to lamenting.  The only conclusion I could draw from that odd response is that she doesn't believe you, a child, could possibly be more aware of the Fade than she is.  However, I do wonder where her Fade fairy is during this whole thing.  Seems like we should have gotten a hand?