1396 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Does she really glare at you when you have low approval with her. I've
never had low approval with my companions. The lowest was -2 with Shale
because I said something she didn't like when I woke her up lol.

No, I don't think so. NPCs just look at you when you're stopped somewhere. You add meaning as you see fit. With my romanced NPCs, they are staring longingly thinking about the tent. Wynne, OTOH, is glaring, dreaming about you locked away in a back closet of the Tower chanting "the Circle is good, the Circle is wise."

Modifié par Addai67, 02 mars 2010 - 06:54 .

[ObserverStatus]

I don't think she's a demon. Wouldn't she have put up more of a fight when she got smeared on the floor of the mage tower?

[IanPolaris]

bobobo878 wrote...

I don't think she's a demon. Wouldn't she have put up more of a fight when she got smeared on the floor of the mage tower?

It's my recollection that she puts up more of a fight than most of the demons you smear all over the floor of the circle tower.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

filaminstrel wrote...

I agree, that's not very reasonable of her. And it's not a matter of the dialog option not being there, because you can attempt to make that argument. She just doesn't care. Nor do Irving and Gregoir, of course, so I suppose you could say they're just as bad... (but they're not the ones who ratted you out, of course)

Actually Gregoire comes out looking very good with the dialog options available.  Gregoire recognizes you are a Grey Warden and recognizes your service to both the Circle and the Templars.  He taes the unprecedented step of giving you an option to surrender so he can plead for your life before the Grand Cleric.  Naturally it's an option you can't take, but Gregoire shows far more mental flexibility and understanding of reality than Wynne ever does.

As for Irving, Irving knows perfectly well the Grey Wardens use blood magic.  That's why he covers for you if you say you learned your magic from the Grey Wardens (at no time do you ever have to deny you are a bloodmage if you use this ridiculously easy persuade option).  Irving takes his cue and shuts Wynne up from there.  Wynne wants your head on a platter anyway but Irving and yes GREGOIRE both shut her up.  I know Irving knows perfectly well that Grey Wardens use bloodmagic because he's an old friend of Duncan's and Duncan is very open about the fact that Grey Wardens can and often do use blood magic, and Irving has all those bloodmagic books on his desk.  Even Alistair admits (if you talk to him in Ostagar before going into the wilds) that Grey Wardens do anything to defeat the blight and that includes some extreme stuff.  He doesn't out and out say Grey Wardens permit bloodmagic, but doesn't say a peep when you say that at Soldier's Peak when Levi Drydon complains that Arvenus was a bloodmage in the grey wardens and you say essentially, "Well yes....anything to win."

-Polaris

[Cuddlezarro]

SPOILER AHOY DON'T READ IF YOU HAVEN'T GOTTEN TO FIONA YET





True, but they all have to break Fiona out.

yes but

SPOILERS AHOY!




Fiona was also POSSESSED by said Demon so I dont exactly think her situation is the same as Wynns at all

the Demon trapping Fiona and gang forcibly took over Fionas body and was personally torturing her in the fade

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 02 mars 2010 - 07:36 .

[IanPolaris]

Cuddlezarro wrote...


Fiona was also POSSESSED by said Demon so I dont exactly think her situation is the same as Wynns

Who says that Wynne isn't possessed by a demon that allows her to think of it as a "benign faith spirit".  BTW under Chantry Law, Wynne is an abomination even if it were a benign Faith Spirit.

-Polaris

[Cuddlezarro]

IanPolaris wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...


Fiona was also POSSESSED by said Demon so I dont exactly think her situation is the same as Wynns

Who says that Wynne isn't possessed by a demon that allows her to think of it as a "benign faith spirit".  BTW under Chantry Law, Wynne is an abomination even if it were a benign Faith Spirit.

-Polaris

I think you missed the entire point of that conversation

[IanPolaris]

filaminstrel wrote...

Like you said (well, sorta), it's not like this unprecedented step does you a whole lot of good anyway, considering the Chantry's position on Blood Magic. I find it to be a rather meaningless formality, like a knight who thinks a code of chivalry will make his enemies' deaths somehow less deadening.

Well gamewise it doesn't do a lot of good, but it shows the Gregoire understands that special cases requires special consideration which shows a lot more flexibility and maturity than Wynne ever shows.  Gregoire also promises to fight for your life before the Grand Cleric.  It may be in the end an empty formality but it's unprecedented from an experienced and respected Templar Knight Commander.  I give Gregoire two thumbs up for at least the attempt.

Well, you don't deny using blood magic directly, per se, but you lie about where you got the magic in the first place. You didn't get it "from the Grey Wardens" (as you must say to go down this dialog path), you got it from the Desire Demon possessing Connor. It's a sort of lie by omission.

Who's to say that you didn't.  You only have to get it from the desire demon if the specialization wasn't unlocked.  Otherwise you could claim just as well that you got it from reading the Blood Magic books on Irving's own desk or that you got Jowan to teach it to you.  In short, unless the specialization was locked, you can claim truthfully that you did learn it from the Grey Wardens (at least their books).

It's true that Irving and Greagoir are willing to... overlook it when it appears that they implicitly understand that you have used blood magic, and only refuse to overlook it if Wynne forces their hand by being so adamant, as a result of a failed coercion check. I suppose my point was just that, assuming that you indeed fail the coercion check, they are still guilty of attempting to arrest the person who just saved their tower from destruction. And while it can be argued that they can't be reasonably expected to openly acknowledge a blood mage and allow him to roam free... I disagree. This is the blood mage who just saved their tower. This blood mage is a Grey Warden, and both Irving and Greagoir know that the Grey Wardens do whatever it takes to defeat the darkspawn. They owe him, and they need him (Blight and all). So they arrest him? I don't buy it.

If you read my "PC Bloodmage" thread, I do agree that Irving is guilty of a little hypocrisy here.  However, unlike Wynne is is actively biting the hand that just saved her precious tower AND doing her level best to destroy what she just got done saving, Irving and Gregore are desperately trying to find a way to "massage" the situation so they can let the Grey Warden Bloodmage do his duty WITHOUT it getting back to the chantry that they let a bloodmage go free which could cost both their jobs at least if not their very lives if the Grand Cleric gets wind of it.

Perhaps "as guilty" may have been a poor comparison, considering that Wynne does seem pretty adamant about delivering you to Chantry justice if she at all suspects you, whereas they want to overlook it... but I do not find them blameless.

That's exactly the difference.  Gregore and Irving know perfectly well in this case you are a blood mage but LOOK for reasons to ignore it because you are a Grey Warden and you really are a friend of both the Circle and Templars as you just proved...and both understand that the normal rules don't apply to Grey Wardens.  Indeed Gregoire says as much when he says, "While I find the Grey Warden methods to be highly questionable, they ultimately are on the side of good."

-Polaris

[ejoslin]

Hmmm, my last contribution (hahahaha, I'm such a liar) is to say, well, continuing from the last page of my other last contribution.



What makes Wynne's talk with Zevran so bad is not only the words (insulting your leader's lover is not good, anyway) is the tone. I won't even post a transcript of it because it just doesn't do the conversation justice. Her tone and facial expression strikes me as one of disgust. According to people who have seen both Zevran's and Morrigan's, it's the tone that makes the Zevran one MUCH worse than the Morrigan one.

[melkathi]

Maria Caliban wrote...

melkathi wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Lead Designer/Lead Writer - Rob Bartel

Hmm, you wouldn't happen to remember when that was mentioned?

The codex entry with the credits.

So you don't actually have facts on who wrote what.
As said before. The codex credits two writers:
Lead Designer/Lead Writer - Rob Bartel
Writer - Sheryl Chee

It does not specify who wrote what or who came up with what.
Unless there is a dev post somewhere where either Rob Bartel or Sheryl Chee state that Sheryl only did the codex entry and didn't write anything else, then you have no fact on which to base your statement.
If there is one I'd love to see it - would be interested in reading it.

One liners do not make what you say true. Proof makes statements true.

I'm even trying to believe you, but it seems that such attempts are a waste of time.

Modifié par melkathi, 02 mars 2010 - 12:54 .

[EccentricSage]

It was fun to tell her off for what she said about my relationship wit Zev, though.



Interesting thing... if you choose the dialogue about him being special and you have fun together, that does make her talk as though it's not a real relationship... But if you choose a more serious dialogue option... which I sadly don't remember the specifics of... but one about being serious about Zevran, she actualy does say in that case that Zevran will get hurt. So yeah... had to point it out for fairness. But her overall tone is still pretty awful.



And the fact she calls leniana sweet and guileless shows Wynne to be utterly clueless about your companions. Bard = Guileless? Does not compute. She really sees what she thinks people are supposed to be, based upon first impressions.



For me, her first banter with Zev is what really made me cringe. You just don't speak in such a presumptuous and authoritative manner about something so personal to someone you practically just met. My elf had gotten to know Zev pretty well already at that point, so it was like, oh hell, don't go there. D: Sometimes I wish the PC could interrupt and get involved in convos between the NPCs. lol Loved the way Zev handled it, though. Best banters in the game, IMO. The way he said the 'magical bosoms' line kills me every time! XD And the convo about what it feals like to have a spirit inside you... OMG.... XD

[knittzu]

EccentricSage, I can't recall -- what is her first banter with Zev?



filaminstrel, "less deadening", heh I love that.

For me, I found her lecture about the PC's relationship with Zevran much worse than her other lectures (not that his near-stranger has any right to lecture another adult about his or her affairs at all, but that's another issue altogther) is that with the others, she at least claims to be concerned about people getting hurt. With Zevran, it's all about appearances -- the Warden being involved with trash like him doesn't fit her romantic, utterly mistaken image of the GWs and she's pissed off that you aren't playing your role correctly. Apparently (from above) there's a dialog option that brings up "then Zevran will get hurt" but I've never encountered that in my play throughs. It's always "this behavior doesn't befit a Warden" blahdeblah, because the Grey Wardens that populate Wynne's heads are saintly beings who exist only to willingly, gratefully sacrifice themselves. They aren't allowed feelings or desires or even humanity.



And as ejoslin pointed out there's also her *tone*, and that's impossible to recapture in text.

[knittzu]

Double post.

Modifié par knittzu, 02 mars 2010 - 01:56 .

[ejoslin]

You know what gets me the most about Wynne's attitude towards Zevran? Take him to the circle. You have a very upset Wynne, obviously. She also is nervous about your ability to take on the abominations. And as you walk in, Zevran says to her, "Do not fear, my good lady. Our Grey Warden is very good at fending off attackers. Speaking from experience here."



You'd think she'd show him the same courtesy as he showed her!

[barkingM1]

ejoslin wrote...

You know what gets me the most about Wynne's attitude towards Zevran? Take him to the circle. You have a very upset Wynne, obviously. She also is nervous about your ability to take on the abominations. And as you walk in, Zevran says to her, "Do not fear, my good lady. Our Grey Warden is very good at fending off attackers. Speaking from experience here."

You'd think she'd show him the same courtesy as he showed her!

That's my boy! 

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...


Fiona was also POSSESSED by said Demon so I dont exactly think her situation is the same as Wynns

Who says that Wynne isn't possessed by a demon that allows her to think of it as a "benign faith spirit".  BTW under Chantry Law, Wynne is an abomination even if it were a benign Faith Spirit.

-Polaris

My blood mage certainly lifted an eyebrow when Wynne confessed this.  And all in her hypocritical, self-justifying manner. 

PC: You should have told me this.
W: I did not think you were ready to hear it.

O ho!  I wasn't ready!  Not because you realize you're an abomination and because I'd see all your Chantry and Circle nonsense is a lie?  It would have been even more telling had I gotten the blood mage confrontation at the Tower where she turns you in to the templars, and then come to find out she had her own big secret which I'm certain the templars would be verrry interested to hear.

At least it's good to know you have something on her. 

Modifié par Addai67, 02 mars 2010 - 04:00 .

[Maria Caliban]

melkathi wrote...

So you don't actually have facts on who wrote what.
As said before. The codex credits two writers:
Lead Designer/Lead Writer - Rob Bartel
Writer - Sheryl Chee

It does not specify who wrote what or who came up with what.
Unless there is a dev post somewhere where either Rob Bartel or Sheryl Chee state that Sheryl only did the codex entry and didn't write anything else, then you have no fact on which to base your statement.
If there is one I'd love to see it - would be interested in reading it.

One liners do not make what you say true. Proof makes statements true.

I'm even trying to believe you, but it seems that such attempts are a waste of time.

Why didn’t you just ASK about how I knew that Sheryl wrote the codex entries? I answered the questions you gave me, not the one that exists only in your head but you don’t actually type out.

I know because I PMed Sheryl and asked her what part of Return to Ostigar she wrote. She told me she wrote only the codex entries.

Let me guess: That’s not good enough for you. You want a dev to come in here and give you the answer, but naturally, you can’t be bothered to send your own PM.

[melkathi]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Why didn’t you just ASK about how I knew that Sheryl wrote the codex entries? I answered the questions you gave me, not the one that exists only in your head but you don’t actually type out.

I know because I PMed Sheryl and asked her what part of Return to Ostigar she wrote. She told me she wrote only the codex entries.

Let me guess: That’s not good enough for you. You want a dev to come in here and give you the answer, but naturally, you can’t be bothered to send your own PM.

No, that is good enough for me.
Personally I don't feel like bothering them. But when The discussion is "It is said that Sheryl didn't write the dialogue, though she is credited on working on RTO" and you enter with a one line saying Rob Bartel wrote it. Asking then how you know that, when the whole page already acknowledged him as Lead Writer, should not require one to spell out that I did not mean the codex entry.
Don't talk about lazyness when you can neither be asked to read the posts in the discussion you are commenting in nor to write more than a sentence.
Me "insulting" you could have easily been avoided had you wrote "I asked Sheryl and she said Rob wrote it" You would have written what? four of five more words and this whole back and forth would have been unnecessary and we would both have been spared the aggravation of arguing online.

[Darkannex]

Everyone needs to relax, take a deep breath, have some white tea with honey and chill I love you all, and love this thread-because it is civil. I plead that it be kept this way and our energies turned to the common foe-Wynne!

[ejoslin]

Darkannex, you do realize that's the quickest way to get everyone yelling at you, right? *grin*

[Darkannex]

It's possible, but I'm willing to take that chance if it brings things back to normal *sniff* I miss normality.

[EccentricSage]

knittzu wrote...

EccentricSage, I can't recall -- what is her first banter with Zev?

filaminstrel, "less deadening", heh I love that.
For me, I found her lecture about the PC's relationship with Zevran much worse than her other lectures (not that his near-stranger has any right to lecture another adult about his or her affairs at all, but that's another issue altogther) is that with the others, she at least claims to be concerned about people getting hurt. With Zevran, it's all about appearances -- the Warden being involved with trash like him doesn't fit her romantic, utterly mistaken image of the GWs and she's pissed off that you aren't playing your role correctly. Apparently (from above) there's a dialog option that brings up "then Zevran will get hurt" but I've never encountered that in my play throughs. It's always "this behavior doesn't befit a Warden" blahdeblah, because the Grey Wardens that populate Wynne's heads are saintly beings who exist only to willingly, gratefully sacrifice themselves. They aren't allowed feelings or desires or even humanity.

And as ejoslin pointed out there's also her *tone*, and that's impossible to recapture in text.

My warden also pissed her off about that in another discussion.  LOL  GRIFINS!!!

But she has very high aproval of Dristen, and they got along great in other convos about her past, so, I don't completely hate her.  Just wish there were an option in the dialogue to tell her she still treats people the way she treeted that aprentice.  She needs to hear that because she obviously isn't aware.  I can understand hoe the Circle did this to her, but it's time to wake up.

Spoilers below.

As for their first banter, the first thing she ever says to Zevran is:

Wynne: "You must know that murder is wrong, I assume."
Zevran: "I'm sorry, are you speeking to me?"
Wynne: "That is why you wish to leave your Crows.  A chrisis of concience."
Zevran: *sarcasticly* "Yes, that is exactly it."
Wynne: "Joke if you wish, but I have the feeling that deep down you regret the life that you lived."
Zevran: *flipantly* "It's true.  I regret it all."
Wynne: "Ugh.  Must you be such a child?  Are you incapable of a single serious conversation?"
Zevran: *ironicly* "I know.  I am terrible and it makes me sad.  May I rest my head in your bossom?  I wish to cry."
Wynne: "You can cry well away from my bossom, I'm certain."
Zevran: *flipantly* "Did I tell you I was an orphan?  I never knew my mother."
Wynne: "Egad.  I give up"

The worst part is that her first impression that he has regrets is actualy true.  Which only makes the way she aproached him and how cold she was towards his deflections all the worse.  No matter how true something is, when someone is trying to take ownership of such personal insight, trying to use it to patronise you, it will only make you feal like you have to deny it and fight it to protect your own integrity.  It was realy very low of Wynne, wether she realised it or not.  It's exactly the sort of thing that would make one hate her if they were her aprentice... having someone who uses even the most obvious insight as a way to lord their moral superiority and rightiousness over you.  Ugh.  And to try to have such a conversation with one's peers present is very cruel, really.  Humiliating if not... well... deflected. 

[ejoslin]

EccentricSage wrote...

The worst part is that her first impression that he has regrets is actualy true.  Which only makes the way she aproached him and how cold she was towards his deflections all the worse.  No matter how true something is, when someone is trying to take ownership of such personal insight, trying to use it to patronise you, it will only make you feal like you have to deny it and fight it to protect your own integrity.  It was realy very low of Wynne, wether she realised it or not.  It's exactly the sort of thing that would make one hate her if they were her aprentice... having someone who uses even the most obvious insight as a way to lord their moral superiority and rightiousness over you.  Ugh.  And to try to have such a conversation with one's peers present is very cruel, really.  Humiliating if not... well... deflected. 

But she so clearly wants to be his salvation!  I love how he ends up turning the tables on her.  But this is a Wynne hate thread, not a Zevran squee one, so I should stop right there.  But Wynne, geez, wants to be everyone counselor, but for her own ego.  What better way than to get the assassin to open up to her, in front of everyone, and then she can be merciful!

*grin* I'm not wording this well at all, I'm sure!

[Sabriana]

Personally, I think he deflects it because she is overstepping her bounderys. Who is she to tell him all of that? He's known nothing but what he was bred into. She tries to butt into territory that is reserved for the Warden in his mind. She's obnoxious, sanctimonious, and self-righteous. He did well, and my girls love it.



*Pat-pats Darkannex. Normality is just a bit too much to ask around here. But don't despair. It may happen yet.*