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[IanPolaris]

Another one of my favorite examples of Wynne hypocrisy (other than what I've already stated) is what happens in the Dalish Camp. If you are a female Warden and seduce Cammen to give him some "on hands instruction" you get a big disapprove hit from Wynne (I think it's -6 or so). If Zev is in the group with you, you get a +4 approve from him or a +6 if Wynne is in the group with you (plus some amusing banter) but the Wynne disapprove goes up to -10. This is in spite of the fact you can still get the two young people together.



HOWEVER, if you are a *male* warden and blatently seduce Gheyna which destroys the relationship for good, you get +7(!!) from Wynne. So it's OK for a male warden to sleep around and destroy relationship but not a female one even when the male seduction is more destructive?



-Polaris

[mousestalker]

IanPolaris wrote...

Another one of my favorite examples of Wynne hypocrisy (other than what I've already stated) is what happens in the Dalish Camp. If you are a female Warden and seduce Cammen to give him some "on hands instruction" you get a big disapprove hit from Wynne (I think it's -6 or so). If Zev is in the group with you, you get a +4 approve from him or a +6 if Wynne is in the group with you (plus some amusing banter) but the Wynne disapprove goes up to -10. This is in spite of the fact you can still get the two young people together.

HOWEVER, if you are a *male* warden and blatently seduce Gheyna which destroys the relationship for good, you get +7(!!) from Wynne. So it's OK for a male warden to sleep around and destroy relationship but not a female one even when the male seduction is more destructive?

-Polaris

I agree with Wynne on that one. Gheyna is totally hawt. I wish my fem wardens could seduce her. Cammen very much needs not to have children.

It's cruel, but there you are.

[ejoslin]

IanPolaris wrote...

Another one of my favorite examples of Wynne hypocrisy (other than what I've already stated) is what happens in the Dalish Camp. If you are a female Warden and seduce Cammen to give him some "on hands instruction" you get a big disapprove hit from Wynne (I think it's -6 or so). If Zev is in the group with you, you get a +4 approve from him or a +6 if Wynne is in the group with you (plus some amusing banter) but the Wynne disapprove goes up to -10. This is in spite of the fact you can still get the two young people together.

HOWEVER, if you are a *male* warden and blatently seduce Gheyna which destroys the relationship for good, you get +7(!!) from Wynne. So it's OK for a male warden to sleep around and destroy relationship but not a female one even when the male seduction is more destructive?

-Polaris

Hahahaha, it's one of my favorite exchanges in the game, Wynne and Zevran in that circumstance.  I laughed so hard the first time I saw it.  And yes, bringing Gheyna and Cammen together is irrelevant, which is stupid.  What was Wynne disapproving of?  The sex?  The warden being young and beautiful and sexy?

[Nonvita]

EccentricSage wrote...

As for their first banter, the first thing she ever says to Zevran is:

Also bad about this conversation is how Zevran was sold into slavery with the Crows, so he never really had a choice about the matter. So she's basically saying, "Hey, you must feel really guilty about the absolutely ****ty lot in life you were handed!" Way to rub it in, Wynne.

mousestalker wrote...

I agree with Wynne on that one. Gheyna is totally hawt. I wish my fem wardens could seduce her. Cammen very much needs not to have children.

It's cruel, but there you are.

You do make a point. But, she still gives the same approval even if you've modded Cammen to look reasonably attractive and not like ugly on a stick. So, it's clearly unrelated to how he looks, and simply related to her being jealous and/or strangely sexist.

Edit:

ejoslin wrote...

What was Wynne disapproving of?  The sex?  The warden being young and beautiful and sexy?

Yes. Very much this.

Modifié par Nonvita, 02 mars 2010 - 10:05 .

[Sabriana]

I do agree with you Ian. The male warden gets a positive for seducing the woman, but the female gets a negative for seducing the man. Hypocrisy at its best.



Mousestalker, you are one of my favorite posters. You are so spot on (most of the time), and your sense of humor is dry and absolutely great.

[melkathi]

Darkannex wrote...

It's possible, but I'm willing to take that chance if it brings things back to normal *sniff* I miss normality.

See, things are back to normal

[barkingM1]

mousestalker wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Another one of my favorite examples of Wynne hypocrisy (other than what I've already stated) is what happens in the Dalish Camp. If you are a female Warden and seduce Cammen to give him some "on hands instruction" you get a big disapprove hit from Wynne (I think it's -6 or so). If Zev is in the group with you, you get a +4 approve from him or a +6 if Wynne is in the group with you (plus some amusing banter) but the Wynne disapprove goes up to -10. This is in spite of the fact you can still get the two young people together.

HOWEVER, if you are a *male* warden and blatently seduce Gheyna which destroys the relationship for good, you get +7(!!) from Wynne. So it's OK for a male warden to sleep around and destroy relationship but not a female one even when the male seduction is more destructive?

-Polaris

I agree with Wynne on that one. Gheyna is totally hawt. I wish my fem wardens could seduce her. Cammen very much needs not to have children.

It's cruel, but there you are.

Good grief.  Well, now I have to try the whole seduction thing, either sex, & see for myself.  Surely that's an error and was supposed to be a disapproval hit for both?   The irony being that it supports our overall impression of the ol' cow.    If the PC is in a relationship with Zevran, though, wouldn't he disapprove?  I once took a hit simply by kissing Allastair in front of him, even though we'd only been flirty at that point.

ROFL, mousetalker.  I once worked  with someone who looked EXACTLY like Cammen - barring the pointed ears (made up for it with the point in his head) - and when he got engaged everyone in the office kind of looked at each other & said exactly that - "Dear lord, he's going to breed . .  ."

[EccentricSage]

Sabriana wrote...

Personally, I think he deflects it because she is overstepping her bounderys. Who is she to tell him all of that? He's known nothing but what he was bred into. She tries to butt into territory that is reserved for the Warden in his mind. She's obnoxious, sanctimonious, and self-righteous. He did well, and my girls love it.

*Pat-pats Darkannex. Normality is just a bit too much to ask around here. But don't despair. It may happen yet.*

Exactly.

I love how, at face value, he tells her exactly what she wants to hear, but the mockary of it is all in his vocal tone.  XD 

I should stop too.. Heh heh.  But seriously, if Wynne had learned anything from her poor aprentice, then she would have recognised the deflections for what they were... Zevran setting a boundary, rather than anything actualy against her.  She takes it so personaly, even though she never considered the fealings of the person she's preeching to.

Nonvita wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

As for their first banter, the first thing she ever says to Zevran is:

Also
bad about this conversation is how Zevran was sold into slavery with
the Crows, so he never really had a choice about the matter. So she's
basically saying, "Hey, you must feel really guilty about the
absolutely ****ty lot in life you were handed!" Way to rub it in, Wynne.

Exactly, though I could give her a pass on the fact that she may not have known he was a slave.  But still, she should have enough sympathy for others to get to know them before breaching such a sensitive topic or laying judgement upon their lives.  She probably didn't realize how cruel she was being, but that doesn't justify her ignorance as it would have been so easily remedied by talking to him privately and asking questions instead of sharing judgements.  It realy made me cringe for the exact reason you point out.  Zevran deflects things easily enough, but it's still cruel.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 02 mars 2010 - 11:36 .

[ejoslin]

barkingM1 wrote...

Good grief.  Well, now I have to try the whole seduction thing, either sex, & see for myself.  Surely that's an error and was supposed to be a disapproval hit for both?   The irony being that it supports our overall impression of the ol' cow.    If the PC is in a relationship with Zevran, though, wouldn't he disapprove?  I once took a hit simply by kissing Allastair in front of him, even though we'd only been flirty at that point.

ROFL, mousetalker.  I once worked  with someone who looked EXACTLY like Cammen - barring the pointed ears (made up for it with the point in his head) - and when he got engaged everyone in the office kind of looked at each other & said exactly that - "Dear lord, he's going to breed . .  ."

Zevran totally doesn't disapprove, even at 100 (adore).  He thinks it's really funny.  Zev isn't worried about the warden messing with someone else -- he worries about the warden loving someone else, and he won't share THAT.

[Nonvita]

ejoslin wrote...

Zevran totally doesn't disapprove, even at 100 (adore).  He thinks it's really funny.  Zev isn't worried about the warden messing with someone else -- he worries about the warden loving someone else, and he won't share THAT.

Just like he doesn't disapprove of a threesome with Isabela (though he always disapproves if he gets left out!). Besides, how could you really be jealous or upset about someone sleeping with that thing? If I were him I'd only be worried about the possibility of contracting Cammen cooties...

Now, with Wynne's approval, I don't really want to know if it's a bug or not. I prefer to think it was completely intentional, and that at least one of the devs got a good chuckle out of it.

[Sabriana]

melkathi wrote...

Darkannex wrote...

It's possible, but I'm willing to take that chance if it brings things back to normal *sniff* I miss normality.

See, things are back to normal

You are quite evil sometimes, you know.

[barkingM1]

Nonvita wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Zevran totally doesn't disapprove, even at 100 (adore).  He thinks it's really funny.  Zev isn't worried about the warden messing with someone else -- he worries about the warden loving someone else, and he won't share THAT.

Just like he doesn't disapprove of a threesome with Isabela (though he always disapproves if he gets left out!). Besides, how could you really be jealous or upset about someone sleeping with that thing? If I were him I'd only be worried about the possibility of contracting Cammen cooties...

Now, with Wynne's approval, I don't really want to know if it's a bug or not. I prefer to think it was completely intentional, and that at least one of the devs got a good chuckle out of it.

Good enough for me on all counts.
[starts unbuckling armor]   Incoming!!

[ejoslin]

Nonvita wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Zevran totally doesn't disapprove, even at 100 (adore).  He thinks it's really funny.  Zev isn't worried about the warden messing with someone else -- he worries about the warden loving someone else, and he won't share THAT.

Just like he doesn't disapprove of a threesome with Isabela (though he always disapproves if he gets left out!). Besides, how could you really be jealous or upset about someone sleeping with that thing? If I were him I'd only be worried about the possibility of contracting Cammen cooties...

Now, with Wynne's approval, I don't really want to know if it's a bug or not. I prefer to think it was completely intentional, and that at least one of the devs got a good chuckle out of it.

I agree with that, actually.  Does Wynne make a comment when a male warden seduces Gheyna?  How about with Zevran or Morrigan in the party?  While we all can agree that Wynne has higher standards for the Warden's behavior than her own when it comes to just about everything, it would also stand to reason that she would have higher expectations for a femwarden when it comes to casual sex than she would for a male warden.

And yeh, Zevran -3 approval if he's not included with Isabela, +7 if he is.  Makes sense to me.  -3 for Alistair kisses while traveling because, well, the warden cares for Alistair.

[EccentricSage]

ejoslin wrote...

Nonvita wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Zevran totally doesn't disapprove, even at 100 (adore).  He thinks it's really funny.  Zev isn't worried about the warden messing with someone else -- he worries about the warden loving someone else, and he won't share THAT.

Just like he doesn't disapprove of a threesome with Isabela (though he always disapproves if he gets left out!). Besides, how could you really be jealous or upset about someone sleeping with that thing? If I were him I'd only be worried about the possibility of contracting Cammen cooties...

Now, with Wynne's approval, I don't really want to know if it's a bug or not. I prefer to think it was completely intentional, and that at least one of the devs got a good chuckle out of it.

I agree with that, actually.  Does Wynne make a comment when a male warden seduces Gheyna?  How about with Zevran or Morrigan in the party?  While we all can agree that Wynne has higher standards for the Warden's behavior than her own when it comes to just about everything, it would also stand to reason that she would have higher expectations for a femwarden when it comes to casual sex than she would for a male warden.

And yeh, Zevran -3 approval if he's not included with Isabela, +7 if he is.  Makes sense to me.  -3 for Alistair kisses while traveling because, well, the warden cares for Alistair.

( I love the fact that Zevran doesn't mind his Warden experimenting sexualy.  )

And ON topic... 8D
Ooooh... you know what?  It was with my male Warden that I found a dialogue tree that leads to her expressing concern for Zevran... Haven't tried it with a female.  Now I'm wondering if her talk about romancing Zevran is signifigantly diferent if you're female... Interesting...

If it is... uuuugh... new reason to hate her.  I can not abide by double standards!!!!  I can acsept that the Gyena thing may be a glitch or a dev's idea of a joke, but if there's a dialogue difference... no.  My fem Warden will bang whomever she damned well pleases, for whatever reason she may choose.  Life is short, and all of that.

[ejoslin]

I'm pretty sure the talk is the same for both male and femwardens. Just that that one dialog choice comes later in that particular dialog, and is really out of place given the beginning when she's attacking the Warden for being involved in an affair like "that." With the others, she starts off as being concerned about one of them being hurt. With Zevran, it's not about that at all. So I think it ends with a generic ending, but it doesn't fit with the Zevran specific part. But also, with her apology, you're given the choice of saying "you just didn't want either of us hurt," with Zevran as well, but again, that doesn't fit. I also think "you'd better be sorry, I was deeply insulted" doesn't fit with the others. Because it's only with Zevran that she WAS being insulting.



She was overstepping in all cases. But she only insulted Zevran, and the relationship. It's a good thing her apology for Zevran is the nicest of them all.

[barkingM1]

EccentricSage wrote...


( I love the fact that Zevran doesn't mind his Warden experimenting sexualy.  )

And ON topic... 8D
Ooooh... you know what?  It was with my male Warden that I found a dialogue tree that leads to her expressing concern for Zevran... Haven't tried it with a female.  Now I'm wondering if her talk about romancing Zevran is signifigantly diferent if you're female... Interesting...

If it is... uuuugh... new reason to hate her.  I can not abide by double standards!!!!  I can acsept that the Gyena thing may be a glitch or a dev's idea of a joke, but if there's a dialogue difference... no.  My fem Warden will bang whomever she damned well pleases, for whatever reason she may choose.  Life is short, and all of that.

I don't think her romance lecture has been any different for my male vs female Zev-lovers.  What would be interesting would be if it's any different depending upon your race as well as your gender.  Both of my PCs that started out with Zev were male & female Dalish (sleep with a human? Blech!), and got the same scolding.  I think the various others boinked Alastair or Morrigan first, got her lecture for them, and then moved on to Zev.

[EccentricSage]

She's an absolute ideot for hating on Zevran and loving on Leliana. If it had just been the difference between Alistair and Zevran, I could comprehend how she has the wrong impression of Zevran... but Leliana... That just makes me shake my head. I think comparing her reaction to the Zevran romance vs her reaction to the Leliana romance is the clearest, most obvious example of how little the wannabe wise adviser actually understands people. She doesn't at ALL. She can go back to her beloved Circle. I am NOT seeing her advising a King Alistair. Oh gods no!

[Sabriana]

My girls are all human and they get the same scolding, bad face, horrible tone of voice. My mage got the 'Alistair' talk, and it wasn't bad.

My subsequent HNFs got the 'Zevran' talk and boy, was it awful. That tone of voice and her facial expression are terrible. No one who romances Zevran can possibly know how very bad that talk is. All myHNF are around 26 years of age. They went through a bunch of crap already, Her parents don't interfere in her love-life. Why does Wynne think she has the right to do that? She doesn't k;now my HNF all that long.

I will accept input from my close friends in RL, but from someone I just met? No. STFU and GTHO

[ejoslin]

EccentricSage wrote...

She's an absolute ideot for hating on Zevran and loving on Leliana. If it had just been the difference between Alistair and Zevran, I could comprehend how she has the wrong impression of Zevran... but Leliana... That just makes me shake my head. I think comparing her reaction to the Zevran romance vs her reaction to the Leliana romance is the clearest, most obvious example of how little the wannabe wise adviser actually understands people. She doesn't at ALL. She can go back to her beloved Circle. I am NOT seeing her advising a King Alistair. Oh gods no!

I think it's because Zevran had her pegged from the get go, and made her extremely uncomfortable.  I actually still laugh when I get the dialog that starts, "You have not asked me about my conscious recently, my darling Wynne."  Man, did he have the tables turned at that point.

I actually wonder if she thought the flirting was serious.  Lots of people do, maybe she did as well.  Maybe that's why he offered to fix her up with his friend!  I'm having them both in my party this play through, and it's been awhile since I've heard these (usually she's dead, in camp, or in the circle).  Gah, they're funny.

Sabriana wrote...

My girls are all human and they get the same scolding, bad face, horrible tone of voice. My mage got the 'Alistair' talk, and it wasn't bad.
My subsequent HNFs got the 'Zevran' talk and boy, was it awful. That tone of voice and her facial expression are terrible. No one who romances Zevran can possibly know how very bad that talk is. All myHNF are around 26 years of age. They went through a bunch of crap already, Her parents don't interfere in her love-life. Why does Wynne think she has the right to do that? She doesn't k;now my HNF all that long. 
I will accept input from my close friends in RL, but from someone I just met? No. STFU and GTHO

I love Oriana's reaction when the HNF tells Fergus she has no less than three lovers.  "Sister, I hope this isn't true.  It would bring shame on our family.  So if it is, make sure you're discrete."  (pad paraphrase, I don't feel like digging through screenshots right now). *grin*  Wynne oversteps SO much.  But she is so insulting.  "An affair such as THAT."  Ugh, he's at adore.  He expects, if not physical faithfulness, emotional faithfulness.  They actually dare to have fun together.

It really seems that Wynne's big objection is he's someone she's actually having fun with.  Perhaps she wasn't having as much fun with Alistair or Leliana -- they do seem the more lovey-dovey types after all.  I see the Warden and Zevran actually kicking back, laughing, being playful, having sex, and just having a good time.  Which, in Wynne-World, would probably be a Very Bad Thing.

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 mars 2010 - 12:24 .

[Cuddlezarro]

well next playthrough Baren #2 will be taking Wynn along which should be fun since hes an Amoral ******* and boy will I be losing Approval with her fast



which means yay more screenies of wynn glaring at me and saying stuff about how mean and childish I am!

[EccentricSage]

Sabriana wrote...

My girls are all human and they get the same scolding, bad face, horrible tone of voice. My mage got the 'Alistair' talk, and it wasn't bad.
My subsequent HNFs got the 'Zevran' talk and boy, was it awful. That tone of voice and her facial expression are terrible. No one who romances Zevran can possibly know how very bad that talk is. All myHNF are around 26 years of age. They went through a bunch of crap already, Her parents don't interfere in her love-life. Why does Wynne think she has the right to do that? She doesn't k;now my HNF all that long.
I will accept input from my close friends in RL, but from someone I just met? No. STFU and GTHO

My Dalish had an easy enough time dealing with it because in his Clan it's normal to have an elder who's job it is to confront one with such concerns and judgements... so though he got mad and argued with her, it was more indignation on behalf of his lover than on his own behalf.  It will not go over well with my other characters, though, i'm pretty sure.  You don't talk to HN that way, period.  And my CE is freeking Xina Warrior Princess, so I don't think she'll want some human bossing her ether.  My CE only respects the alienage elder because he's been there through everything and truly knows and cares about his people.  Wynne assuming such position will spark outrage.  I think my CE realy has a much much harder time trusting humans than my Dalish.  My Dalish takes his father's wishes to have peace and understanding between their people to heart above all else... But my CE has a bit of a murderous rage under the surface, easily sparked.  I don't think Wynne will be staying with her.

[knittzu]

ejoslin wrote...
 I see the Warden and Zevran actually kicking back, laughing, being playful, having sex, and just having a good time.  Which, in Wynne-World, would probably be a Very Bad Thing.

Yes, exactly.  It totally deviates from her mental picture of the Wardens being robots eagerly waiting around for the chance to fall on their swords and if there's one thing Wynne really hates, it's something not fitting into the neat little box she's assigned it.

And Ejoslin, thank you for the FAQ!  Love it.

[ejoslin]

knittzu wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
 I see the Warden and Zevran actually kicking back, laughing, being playful, having sex, and just having a good time.  Which, in Wynne-World, would probably be a Very Bad Thing.

Yes, exactly.  It totally deviates from her mental picture of the Wardens being robots eagerly waiting around for the chance to fall on their swords and if there's one thing Wynne really hates, it's something not fitting into the neat little box she's assigned it.

And Ejoslin, thank you for the FAQ!  Love it.

Thank you so much, Knittzu 

Yes, Wynne is so worried in all of those that the warden is just going to stop that blight fighting and run off with whomever she loves!  And that would be especially bad if that person is someone like . . . THAT!

[Jayelet]

What if Wynne might influence Alistair?

Wynne represents everything he wants Alistair.

A friend and a mother.



I think the character would fare much worse.