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Abominable Wynne (or: Wynnie the "Poo! I am not allowed to have Spoilers in the title")

Débuté par melkathi , janv. 27 2010 01:54

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#901
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Posté 15 mars 2010 - 12:09

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Chasseresse wrote...

I think it is Irving? that says something along the lines of Wynne always wanting to be out of/away from the Circle doing this, that, whatever. It implied that she actually hadn't spent as much time at the Circle as other senior enchanters. Which makes it a little more annoying that even though she got to go and leave when she wanted to (or at least a lot more often than the other senior mages), she expects you to happily return and shackle yourself to the Circle.


I really doubt she got to go and leave whenever she wanted to. Beyond Ostagar (which I imagine is an uncommon thing, mages being summoned for a battle-- just as the Blight is an uncommon thing), and then running off to help the Warden, how many opportunities do you really think she had? I can't imagine there were many. Perhaps she tried to find opportunities to leave, but I doubt she found many.

It may be that part of the reason she speaks of the Chantry as an ultimately necessary and good institution is because, it beat her. She didn't find a way out, all the way until she was old and near death and a fortuitous Blight happened to begin ravaging the land. Thus she speaks of it as necessary because-- well, it was necessary for her, so gosh darn it, it should be necessary for every other mage who comes along too. And she speaks of it as good because that's how she consoles herself with the fact that she has lived an entire life of glorified slavery.

In any case, considering these things,  I don't think it's unreasonable, or at least, not understandable, that she would want you to "do your time" as she did.

edit: and to perhaps more directly address the argument of, "Well, she didn't do her time, though," I guess I would say, I think it's more accurate to say, "She's not doing her time now." The game doesn't start, after all, until the Blight has already begun, and she's already an old woman. Yeah, over the course of the game she does pretty much nothing but run from the Circle one way or another, but I'm guessing that's an exception to the normal course of events of her life. I suppose I could be wrong.

Modifié par filaminstrel, 15 mars 2010 - 12:16 .

#902
melkathi
Posté 15 mars 2010 - 12:17

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Just a random thought:

Image IPB

#903
Kryyptehk
Posté 15 mars 2010 - 12:23

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Argh, today I was in Orzammar and every time I come back into the Commons, I always cross the Proving bridge to get a banter between my companions. Wynne gets on my freaking nerves with her constant picking at Morrigan. Maybe I'm just a Morri-girl, but it really grate on my nerves, her telling Morrigan that she pitied her life and that Morrigan should be nicer.

#904
mousestalker
Posté 15 mars 2010 - 01:15

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Cuddlezarro wrote...

I posted screenshots earlier with her telling gregoir she saw me using blood magic


Ooh! Do you know when you did that or can you do a linky? Not doubting you, but I always wimp out and choose nicer options even when I intend to be mean. So the only way I'll ever see the harder choices is vicariously.

:D

#905
melkathi
Posté 15 mars 2010 - 01:16

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mousestalker wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

I posted screenshots earlier with her telling gregoir she saw me using blood magic


Ooh! Do you know when you did that or can you do a linky? Not doubting you, but I always wimp out and choose nicer options even when I intend to be mean. So the only way I'll ever see the harder choices is vicariously.

:D


It's somewhere in this thread :lol:

#906
Herr Uhl
Posté 15 mars 2010 - 01:21

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melkathi wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

I posted screenshots earlier with her telling gregoir she saw me using blood magic


Ooh! Do you know when you did that or can you do a linky? Not doubting you, but I always wimp out and choose nicer options even when I intend to be mean. So the only way I'll ever see the harder choices is vicariously.

:D


It's somewhere in this thread :lol:


Linky

#907
mousestalker
Posté 15 mars 2010 - 01:34

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Herr Uhl wrote...


Linky


Thanks!

Same dialogue tree, harder/meaner choices.

I took the persuade "It's super secret Grey Warden stuff" option. 

Modifié par mousestalker, 15 mars 2010 - 01:38 .

#908
Count Viceroy
Posté 15 mars 2010 - 01:43

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Can you actually ****** her off enough to force her to leave though without destroying the urn?

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 15 mars 2010 - 01:43 .

#909
melkathi
Posté 15 mars 2010 - 01:51

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Herr Uhl wrote...

melkathi wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

I posted screenshots earlier with her telling gregoir she saw me using blood magic


Ooh! Do you know when you did that or can you do a linky? Not doubting you, but I always wimp out and choose nicer options even when I intend to be mean. So the only way I'll ever see the harder choices is vicariously.

:D


It's somewhere in this thread :lol:


Linky


Page 8?:o

How time flies by when you are having fun.
I could have sworn it hadn't been more than 200 posts ago :happy:

#910
ejoslin
Posté 15 mars 2010 - 01:53

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melkathi wrote...

Page 8?:o

How time flies by when you are having fun.
I could have sworn it hadn't been more than 200 posts ago :happy:


Someone just won't let this thread die . . . :devil:

#911
Herr Uhl
Posté 15 mars 2010 - 01:53

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melkathi wrote...

Page 8?:o

How time flies by when you are having fun.
I could have sworn it hadn't been more than 200 posts ago :happy:


Going backwards to find it was a bad idea :(.

#912
Sarah1281
Posté 15 mars 2010 - 01:59

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Can you actually ****** her off enough to force her to leave though without destroying the urn?




Yes. You can convince her to stay, but if you get her approval down that low I think it's pretty clear you're not interested in that. At least then she doesn't hope you get eaten by darkspawn.

#913
melkathi
Posté 15 mars 2010 - 06:39

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ejoslin wrote...

Someone just won't let this thread die . . . :devil:


And it's not even about Zevran... :innocent:

#914
Sabriana
Posté 15 mars 2010 - 08:34

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Irving says to Wynne: "You never were one to stay put when there was adventure to be had elsewhere." I don't know, but to me that says that she did get out frequently. Aside from that, my mage did her duty to the circle and then some by clearing it out and preventing the Rite of Annulment.

#915
ejoslin
Posté 15 mars 2010 - 11:05

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I think it IS pretty unreasonable for Wynne to expect a MageWarden to "do her time," when, well, she ALSO expects the warden to be a Grey Warden above all else. If you annul the circle, Gregoir asks Wynne to stay on as first enchanter so they can rebuild and she refuses. Which makes all she says about her not being able to be the one to rebuild and change the circle a bit of a lie. She's probably lying to herself as well. Or maybe she feels she is not capable of doing it.

#916
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Posté 15 mars 2010 - 11:58

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Eh, she's had enough time to train several apprentices, at least. I don't really see how one can dispute that she's spent much longer in the Circle than your PC, who hasn't spent a day in the Circle post-Harrowing. And that's really the issue, I think (from her POV), moreso than what you've done for the Circle, per se. It's the time spent there. I mean, any Grey Warden hero could have come in and saved the Circle just as well, mage or no, thus doing their duty to the Circle, even if they had no such duty.

That's not to mention that she had a hand in that whole "saving the Circle" thing too. Or at least, she did, if you're in any position to hear her advising you to return there.

As for her suggestion being unreasonable, well, she makes her suggestion with the implicit assumption that you survive the Blight, I believe. She wants you to go back to the Circle after
you defeat the Blight. All of her talk about Grey Warden responsibility is with the assumption that there's a Blight that still needs beating. I doubt she's aware that there's an expansion pack where the darkspawn are still a significant and organized threat. :P

(Really, though, there isn't any historical precedent for such a thing, as far as I know. And as far as Wynne knows. Or so I would guess.)

I think there is truth to the idea that she does not feel capable. She is still living on borrowed time, after all. Or so she believes, anyway. She's not sure if she'll be able to finish her journey to Tevinter with Shale, as I recall from her epilogue conversation. So maybe she thinks it's better for the Circle to prep a First Enchanter with more vitality than she, than the prep her, only for her to keel over and die a few months later, and then for them to have to prep another First Enchanter anyway.

Modifié par filaminstrel, 15 mars 2010 - 12:05 .

#917
ejoslin
Posté 15 mars 2010 - 12:05

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filaminstrel wrote...

Eh, she's had enough time to train several apprentices, at least. I don't really see how one can dispute that she's spent much longer in the Circle than your PC, who hasn't spent a day in the Circle post-Harrowing. And that's really the issue, I think (from her POV), moreso than what you've done for the Circle, per se. It's the time spent there. I mean, any Grey Warden hero could have come in and saved the Circle just as well, mage or no, thus doing their duty to the Circle, even if they had no such duty.

That's not to mention that she had a hand in that whole "saving the Circle" thing too. Or at least, she did, if you're in any position to hear her advising you to return there.

As for her suggestion being unreasonable, well, she makes her suggestion with the implicit assumption that you survive the Blight, I believe. She wants you to go back to the Circle after you defeat the Blight. I doubt she's aware that there's an expansion pack where the darkspawn are still a significant and organized threat. :P

(Really, though, there isn't any historical precedent for such a thing, as far as I know. And as far as Wynne knows. Or so I would guess.)

I think there is truth to the idea that she does not feel capable. She is still living on borrowed time, after all. Or so she believes, anyway. She's not sure if she'll be able to finish her journey to Tevinter with Shale, as I recall from her epilogue conversation. So maybe she thinks it's better for the Circle to prep a First Enchanter with more vitality than she, than the prep her, only for her to keel over and die a few months later, and then for them to have to prep another First Enchanter anyway.


Heh, well, if the warden hadn't come along, Wynne would have stayed keeping a barrier up until the Templars did the annulment.  If she made it to the sloth demon, she would have stayed in the fade until she died.  I think she overestimated her role there.  And actually, ANY grey warden could not have done it. Alistair would have been stuck in the fade until he died as well.

And of course she's been in the circle longer. 

I guess I don't see the implied DEBT.  Why should the warden put the circle above the Grey Wardens or her own happiness for that matter?  Isn't saving Ferelden enough?  Even without a blight, there are TWO grey wardens left.  If they survive, they WILL need to be rebuilt. The warden doesn't stop being a warden just because there's no blight.

What Wynne wants from a MageWarden is to make HER dreams and ambitions come true.  It's an unfair expectation.  I'm sure my MageWarden, after spending time with Wynne, was very grateful that Irving was her mentor!  

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mars 2010 - 12:06 .

#918
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 15 mars 2010 - 12:28

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ejoslin wrote...

I guess I don't see the implied DEBT.  Why should the warden put the circle above the Grey Wardens or her own happiness for that matter?  Isn't saving Ferelden enough?  Even without a blight, there are TWO grey wardens left.  If they survive, they WILL need to be rebuilt. The warden doesn't stop being a warden just because there's no blight.


Well, because she's just as much a part of the Circle as she is a part of the Wardens, and because she's just as much obligated to contribute to the Circle as Isolde is obligated to give her son up to the Circle. Which, apparently, is very much so. It's the law. The Chantry demands it.

(Yes, yes, Wardens are above the law, and all that. That line of reasoning only ever seemed to work for Duncan, though.)

I guess I would agree with your initial assertion on Wynne's priorities-- Rebuild the Circle > Rebuild the Grey wardens IF you must (but shouldn't) > having a caring relationship.. but I would add "Defeat the Blight" to the front of that. Because I think that's more of what she's referring to when she goes on about the responsibilities of a Warden. There are plenty of Orlesian wardens to do that trivial "rebuilding" stuff.

Modifié par filaminstrel, 15 mars 2010 - 12:29 .

#919
Sabriana
Posté 15 mars 2010 - 12:31

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Yeah, rather shocking, that. Morrigan knows she's in the fade, Sten knows he's in the fade, but Wynne has to be snapped to reality. Neither Morrigan nor Sten claim to have an affinity for the fade, yet both know they are caught in a dream-world. Wynne does claim that, but is completely taken in.

Any PC warden can save the circle (if she so chooses), but "any" PC warden is also not asked to return to the tower, just the mage-warden.

Sorry, but my mage warden thinks she's been imprisoned without her consent by the Chantry. That blood mage had it about right. Templars everywhere, no freedom, a cage without doors to the toilets and bathrooms, let alone bedrooms. Nifty. Just what my mage finds the epitome of a high quality life.

No thanks. After the blight is over, it is time to rebuild the GWs. The world should never be caught as unawares and unprepared ever again. She has gone through a blood-ritual and is tainted. Woe to her should the Chantry/Templars ever get wind of that somehow. Tranquility at best, death at worst.

#920
ejoslin
Posté 15 mars 2010 - 12:37

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filaminstrel wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I guess I don't see the implied DEBT.  Why should the warden put the circle above the Grey Wardens or her own happiness for that matter?  Isn't saving Ferelden enough?  Even without a blight, there are TWO grey wardens left.  If they survive, they WILL need to be rebuilt. The warden doesn't stop being a warden just because there's no blight.


Well, because she's just as much a part of the Circle as she is a part of the Wardens, and because she's just as much obligated to contribute to the Circle as Isolde is obligated to give her son up to the Circle. Which, apparently, is very much so. It's the law. The Chantry demands it.

(Yes, yes, Wardens are above the law, and all that. That line of reasoning only ever seemed to work for Duncan, though.)

I guess I would agree with your initial assertion on Wynne's priorities-- Rebuild the Circle > Rebuild the Grey wardens IF you must (but shouldn't) > having a caring relationship.. but I would add "Defeat the Blight" to the front of that. Because I think that's more of what she's referring to when she goes on about the responsibilities of a Warden. There are plenty of Orlesian wardens to do that trivial "rebuilding" stuff.


Ah, but I can think of three times that Wynne tries to kill you.  Twice is defending the circle.  So Circle > defeating the blight!

Edit: And no, it's made VERY clear when you leave the circle you're not coming back, that you can't.  That you're a grey warden.  Gregoir and Irving both confirm that.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mars 2010 - 12:43 .

#921
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Posté 15 mars 2010 - 12:43

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At any of those points that she attempts to kill you, I would guess that she deduces that Ferelden has a better chance of defeating the Blight without you (because you're just that bad), even if you are one of the only Wardens left.

#922
ejoslin
Posté 15 mars 2010 - 12:45

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filaminstrel wrote...

At any of those points that she attempts to kill you, I would guess that she deduces that Ferelden has a better chance of defeating the Blight without you (because you're just that bad), even if you are one of the only Wardens left.


How do you assume THAT?  She makes it very clear in her dialogs that she believes the wardens are the only hope. Let me guess, you haven't actually seen when she tries to kill you.  Or you haven't seen when she tells you she hopes the dark spawn get you.  Twice, it's because she's defending the circle.  Nothing at all to do with the blight.  The third time, you do something she thinks is horrible (very anti-Chantry for sure), and if she's with you, she tries to kill you (and Alistair, if he's there as well), otherwise she tells you she hopes the darkspawn wins.

She knows the Grey Wardens are the only hope.  She harps on it, in fact.  She's inconsistent at BEST.

So no, circle > Grey warden (including that blight defeating stuff) > having a personal relationship and being human and grabbing a bit of happiness.  Though she DOES come around on that last point at least.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mars 2010 - 12:46 .

#923
Lady Orc
Posté 15 mars 2010 - 12:47

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My mage Warden has been kept in a gilded cage by the CIrcle/Chantry for all of her life. She has no debt to them, and if she ever did, it was certainly paid in full when she saved their sorry behinds from the Abominations *they* couldn't handle. They have a huge debt to her, the way I see it, and anybody who suggests she ought to return to the CIrcle to simper before her former jailors is likely to receive the verbal equivalent of a fireball to the face. :innocent:

#924
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Posté 15 mars 2010 - 12:54

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The Wardens may be the only hope, but if you do something extremely heinous in her eyes, it's not unreasonable that she might deduce that you'll never live up to your responsibilities as a Warden anyway.



And yes, I have had her turn on me at various points. One, because you're a Blood Mage (heinous). Two, because you defile the Ashes (heinous). Three, because you try to annul the Circle. I suppose, because of that last point, you could further modify her priorities, to read as: preserving the Circle from utter destruction > defeating the Blight > rebuilding the Circle > rebuilding the Wardens > happiness.

#925
ejoslin
Posté 15 mars 2010 - 01:03

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filaminstrel wrote...

The Wardens may be the only hope, but if you do something extremely heinous in her eyes, it's not unreasonable that she might deduce that you'll never live up to your responsibilities as a Warden anyway.

And yes, I have had her turn on me at various points. One, because you're a Blood Mage (heinous). Two, because you defile the Ashes (heinous). Three, because you try to annul the Circle. I suppose, because of that last point, you could further modify her priorities, to read as: preserving the Circle from utter destruction > defeating the Blight > rebuilding the Circle > rebuilding the Wardens > happiness.


Which of course means she's blind to the realities of the situation.  Because, of course, if the blight remains unchecked, all these things she's willing to kill you for will be swallowed up.

She wants my bloodmage to return and rebuild the circle . . .

Edit: Agree LadyOrc! 

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mars 2010 - 01:03 .

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