1396 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabriana]

@ filaminstrel

That's beside the point. If she succeeds in finishing off the last two GWs in Ferelden, she dooms the whole country to a heinous death. But it matters not to her, because she is very selfish and very inconsistent.

Blood Magic is not forbidden by the Grey Wardens. Personally, I think the Joining comes dangerously close to blood magic.

Andraste's ashes are garbage to non andrastian peoples. It's an ashtray, nothing more.

Modifié par Sabriana, 15 mars 2010 - 01:08 .

[Sabriana]

It is well known that *only* GW can successfully stop a Blight. The exact reason for that is known only to GWs (Riordan assumes that the PC and Alistair already know why a GW has to slay the Warden). She also doesn't know that Orlesian Wardens are at the border. She also doesn't know that those Orlesian Wardens resigned themselves to wait until Ferelden is consumed and then fight, because Loghain will not let them into the country.

And right on both - serial killers are usually stricken with Antisocial Personality Disorder.

Modifié par Sabriana, 15 mars 2010 - 01:26 .

[ejoslin]

So Wynne doesn't believe Irving when he says that if the Warden doesn't succeed, then the tower will be swallowed by the blight . . . *sigh* I get that you don't hate Wynne. But you are now going against what is said in the game to bolster your points.



She never says, not once, when she's going to kill you that she thinks that the blight will be stopped by someone else. She does say, however, that you're Ferelden's only hope. Are you saying she's lying when she says that? Or that she doesn't believe the blight is really that much of a threat?

[ejoslin]

filaminstrel wrote...

She doesn't say it because she's too busy trying to kill you, for one... it's not about blind support for Wynne, it's just that I don't automatically assume that everything she says fits some classification of hypocrisy, if a reasonable alternative explanation exists which fits within her established world view.

I don't automatically assume that either -- but I do go by what she says. "I hope the darkspawn take you," is pretty hard to rationalize away.  When you say, Well, I know she didn't SAY this, but she probably MEANT this when she said what she did . . . it doesn't make too much sense.

We all interpret the characters in our own way, and there is no right or wrong.  But when you start telling people they should not believe what she says and should instead try to look for alternate meanings or some such, you really do need to back that up with more.  I have changed my mind about plenty of the characters and my interpretation of them.  And I definitely enjoy hearing about how other people view them. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mars 2010 - 02:07 .

[ejoslin]

The problem with Wynne is she sets herself up to be your counselor and assumes she is far more knowledgeable than your warden and lectures so much about it. Bad advice, my warden can accept. She prefers GOOD advice, mind you, but she doesn't hate Morrigan when Morrigan is being Morrigan. Then again, Morrigan never turns around and tries to kill the warden, either.



Wynne DOES have justifications for what she does. BUT it goes against what she says the warden should do and believe, which is why I think she is hypocritical. Just one for instance -- Wynne tells the warden that she needs to put being a Grey Warden above all things, including her personal feelings. But Wynne does not abide by that personally, and will put HER personal feelings before stopping the blight.



Understandable? Of course. Holding the warden to a much higher standard than she can live by? Of course. Well intentioned? Sure. Hypocritical? You bet!

[Addai]

filaminstrel wrote...

Eh, she's had enough time to train several apprentices, at least. I don't really see how one can dispute that she's spent much longer in the Circle than your PC, who hasn't spent a day in the Circle post-Harrowing. And that's really the issue, I think (from her POV), moreso than what you've done for the Circle, per se. It's the time spent there. I mean, any Grey Warden hero could have come in and saved the Circle just as well, mage or no, thus doing their duty to the Circle, even if they had no such duty.

My mage gave all of her childhood to the Circle, and that was more than she would ever have done willingly.  They owe her something they can't ever repay, not the other way around.

Of course, if you have a high enough approval with Wynne to get this dialogue, she thinks you like the Circle as much as she does.  My PC took every opportunity to tell her how much she hated the gilded cage, so no Aneirin for her.

That's not to mention that she had a hand in that whole "saving the Circle" thing too. Or at least, she did, if you're in any position to hear her advising you to return there.

I think other respondents have already pish-poshed this.    The only one who thinks Wynne is essential to you saving the Circle is Wynne.

[melkathi]

Hmm looky what I found:
http://social.biowar...9/index/1734468

[Sabriana]

Oh my goodness. Those ballistas..., that's, well, weird. And funny at the same time, rofl.



Nice little hint toward this thread, Melkathi

[Swifty]

ejoslin wrote...

The problem with Wynne is she sets herself up to be your counselor and assumes she is far more knowledgeable than your warden and lectures so much about it. Bad advice, my warden can accept. She prefers GOOD advice, mind you, but she doesn't hate Morrigan when Morrigan is being Morrigan. Then again, Morrigan never turns around and tries to kill the warden, either.

Wynne DOES have justifications for what she does. BUT it goes against what she says the warden should do and believe, which is why I think she is hypocritical. Just one for instance -- Wynne tells the warden that she needs to put being a Grey Warden above all things, including her personal feelings. But Wynne does not abide by that personally, and will put HER personal feelings before stopping the blight.

Understandable? Of course. Holding the warden to a much higher standard than she can live by? Of course. Well intentioned? Sure. Hypocritical? You bet!

Particularily hypocritical in light of what happened at Ostagar.

*SPOILER* Considering your PC was at least trying to do their duty to light the beacon and getting butt-kicked by an ogre while she was fleeing back to the tower in cowardice at the first sight of the big baddies.

[Swifty]

Sabriana wrote...

@ filaminstrel

That's beside the point. If she succeeds in finishing off the last two GWs in Ferelden, she dooms the whole country to a heinous death. But it matters not to her, because she is very selfish and very inconsistent.

Blood Magic is not forbidden by the Grey Wardens. Personally, I think the Joining comes dangerously close to blood magic.

Andraste's ashes are garbage to non andrastian peoples. It's an ashtray, nothing more.

I think you're making an excellent point, there. One does not have to believe in "the maker" to stop the blight [the elves or example have other gods, we have no idea how they feel about bloodmagic since Dalish leader practised it against the werewolves, obviously, the Lady says so]--therefore Wynnes' personal religious bias is greater than her belief that you should stop the blight if she'll bail from the party.

Her words say one thing--her actions prove another.

[mousestalker]

With 37 pages of love for the mage with the saggy bits to read, it's probably been mentioned before, but when my baby mage warden went to speak with her at Ostagar she was brusque. She was not the grandmotherly Wynne, she was the 'go away you bother me kid' Wynne. She and my blood mage are not faring so well this play through.

[Swifty]

Yeah well my mage picked every "Shut up/who asked you?" type option available.

[melkathi]

Sabriana wrote...

Nice little hint toward this thread, Melkathi

<--- Chanter Melkathi 

And when the Chant of Wynne-hate has reached all four corners of the forum,
Then it shall be lifted up and <enter favourid romanceable char here> shall hear it.
And then <enter favourid romanceable char here> shall return to us
And then <enter favourid romanceable char here> shall return to the party in Dragon Age

[mousestalker]

Addai67 wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

Eh, she's had enough time to train several apprentices, at least. I don't really see how one can dispute that she's spent much longer in the Circle than your PC, who hasn't spent a day in the Circle post-Harrowing. And that's really the issue, I think (from her POV), moreso than what you've done for the Circle, per se. It's the time spent there. I mean, any Grey Warden hero could have come in and saved the Circle just as well, mage or no, thus doing their duty to the Circle, even if they had no such duty.

My mage gave all of her childhood to the Circle, and that was more than she would ever have done willingly.  They owe her something they can't ever repay, not the other way around.

Of course, if you have a high enough approval with Wynne to get this dialogue, she thinks you like the Circle as much as she does.  My PC took every opportunity to tell her how much she hated the gilded cage, so no Aneirin for her.

That's not to mention that she had a hand in that whole "saving the Circle" thing too. Or at least, she did, if you're in any position to hear her advising you to return there.

I think other respondents have already pish-poshed this.    The only one who thinks Wynne is essential to you saving the Circle is Wynne.

She may have a point, you know. At least one surviving senior mage is completely delusional. I'm writing of the guy who is taking the apprentices to Redcliffe in the random encounter. Unless I exercise exceptional care and take undue risks the apprentices generally wind up dead yet he speaks of them as capable.

Wynne may be the best they have left or the senior staff and if you don't take up the burden the Circle may be run by Lucrosians, lyrium addicts and madmen. Can you imagine Godwin as First Enchanter?

Modifié par mousestalker, 15 mars 2010 - 08:22 .

[CalJones]

Godwin's got the right idea - get all the templars smacked out of their heads, withdraw the lyrium and watch them dissolve into weepy, incoherent messes. Then start a huge mage rebellion.

Of course, he'd have to lock Cullen in the basement first...

[Addai]

mousestalker wrote...
Wynne may be the best they have left or the senior staff and if you don't take up the burden the Circle may be run by Lucrosians, lyrium addicts and madmen. Can you imagine Godwin as First Enchanter?

Put this way, Morrigan's advice is sounding better and better!

[Sarah1281]

The third time, you do something she thinks is horrible (very anti-Chantry for sure), and if she's with you, she tries to kill you (and Alistair, if he's there as well), otherwise she tells you she hopes the darkspawn wins.

That's what I don't get. I know she feels desecrating the ashes is unforgiveable because it takes away people's hope (not like you're going to be telling people what you did because you're not stupid) but she makes no attempt to stop you. AFTER you destroy the ashes then she tries to kill you. I think it would have made more sense if you select 'pour blood on the ashes' and then before you get a chance to, she (and possibly Leliana if she's there and not hardened) attacks you to try and save the ashes and you can only successfully poison them once she's dead.



Then again, I only poisoned them once for the Reaver specialty and then reloaded. Even though I was playing a dwarf who thought the Chantry was absurd, I had Oghren with me and he kept pointing out all the lyrium that was powering the ashes and even Kolgrim admitted they had healing properties. Does not strengthening the Chantry really mean so much you'd destroy an incredibly potent restorative? If it's that important, just kll Genitivi and the Chantry will never know while you have access to the ashes whenever you need it.



On a side note, if you kill everyone in the Haven Chantry and then everyone you meet after that in the ruins and 'Andraste' but don't wipe out the town, do people still realize the ashes are found?

[Moogliepie]

Wynne is a chantry apologist and vicious, prejeducided murderer. She attempts to murder you and your party, simply because you are with an apostate (an unsanctioned mage), and don't want to drag her old bones along with you on the mission to clear out the tower.

[Chasseresse]

melkathi wrote...

Hmm looky what I found:
http://social.biowar...9/index/1734468

Giggling here.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Moogliepie wrote...

Wynne is a chantry apologist and vicious, prejeducided murderer. She attempts to murder you and your party, simply because you are with an apostate (an unsanctioned mage), and don't want to drag her old bones along with you on the mission to clear out the tower.

Yes this happened to me too, was quite surprised.  Not that I liked Wynne before that, but it at least gave me a reason to dislike like her.

[ejoslin]

Oh dear, I have the toolkit running. Wynne hate abounds for me now! Not really, but her romance conversations IS quite different for Zevran than the other three. And where the VO comments in the others make her sound serious and concerned, with Zevran, the VO notes say things like "Exasperated, rolling her eyes." "Awkward" "A little disapproving and concerned."



Not the Zev fans' imaginations!

[Cuddlezarro]

ejoslin wrote...

Oh dear, I have the toolkit running. Wynne hate abounds for me now! Not really, but her romance conversations IS quite different for Zevran than the other three. And where the VO comments in the others make her sound serious and concerned, with Zevran, the VO notes say things like "Exasperated, rolling her eyes." "Awkward" "A little disapproving and concerned."

Not the Zev fans' imaginations!

Post them!