1396 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

ejoslin wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So, basically, when you screwed up and implied you were going to kill her and all the innocent mages in the tower... or when you shat on a holy relic that could bring a great amoung of good and hope to the world in desperate need of it.

A defensive reaction to your own ****up, or to one of the most evil-leaning choices in the game. Still not that horrible, all party members considered.

Edit: Actually, that is too harsh, I admit. I should assume you're fair and evenhanded, after all: no doubt you also hate Leliana (who will try to kill you for the Ashes), Zevran (for trying to kill you in the first place),  Loghain (for obvious reasons). Possibly Sten and Oghren as well, since they'll fight with naked blades against you as well, depending on what you do or do not say.

Except what good would the ashes do, or the circle for that matter, if Wynne was successful and/or got her wish and the Gray Wardens ended up dead or taken by darkspawn?  As she knows, that would cause Ferelden, including the temple with the ashes in it and the mage circle, to end up destroyed by the blight.

I never denied she was emotional then. But you can hardly claim it's unjustified: on what grounds is destroying the Ashes necessary for facing the Blight?

And no one knew the ashes existed anyway.  So it's not that anyone would be hurt by their destruction.

Sure, in the same way that no one will be hurt if you destroy the Anvil of the Void. People can, will die without it, but who cares? They're in the future. 
 
The potential of people helped, of course, is obliterrated entirely, and the truth can come out at a later time. You don't even have to have Wynn be there and she hears about it from the party: what makes you think it's a permanent secret?

[ejoslin]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sure, in the same way that no one will be hurt if you destroy the Anvil of the Void. People can, will die without it, but who cares? They're in the future. 
 
The potential of people helped, of course, is obliterrated entirely, and the truth can come out at a later time. You don't even have to have Wynn be there and she hears about it from the party: what makes you think it's a permanent secret?

You cannot compare the Anvil to the Ashes -- they're way too different.

I find the anvil a very difficult choice because of the suffering involved with making golems and enslaving people for eternity.  The potential for abuse is too high as well.  But you know, it would save many, many more.

Destroying the ashes ends the potential for the Chantry exploiting them right there and then. But keeping them doesn't enslave people forever and ever after pouring molten lyrium through their eye sockets while still living and then shaping them as they scream.

Edit: Wynne harps on you that you're the only salvation for Ferelden.  Killing you is FAR worse than destroying the ashes.  It dooms the country she is claiming to want to save.

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 septembre 2010 - 02:29 .

[Dean_the_Young]

MariSkep wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I never denied she was emotional then. But you can hardly claim it's unjustified: on what grounds is destroying the Ashes necessary for facing the Blight?

On what grounds is she justified in killing you? 

Unjustified inbeing irrationally emotional is what I meant.

Justified in killing you after the Blight is another question.

[Dean_the_Young]

ejoslin wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sure, in the same way that no one will be hurt if you destroy the Anvil of the Void. People can, will die without it, but who cares? They're in the future. 
 
The potential of people helped, of course, is obliterrated entirely, and the truth can come out at a later time. You don't even have to have Wynn be there and she hears about it from the party: what makes you think it's a permanent secret?

You cannot compare the Anvil to the Ashes -- they're way too different.

If you consider lives different depending on who's effected. The underlying moral delimma (such that it is: it's never really raised with the ashes) is the question of people who can be saved if you keep the object in question versus those who will be lost if it'skept and revealed.

I find the anvil a very difficult choice because of the suffering involved with making golems and enslaving people for eternity.  The potential for abuse is too high as well.  But you know, it would save many, many more.

Destroying the ashes ends the potential for the Chantry exploiting them right there and then. But keeping them doesn't enslave people forever and ever after pouring molten lyrium through their eye sockets while still living and then shaping them as they scream.

Er, you're arguing against yourself in principle if not the details. Your argument against the Ashes is that the Chantry will 'exploit' them (presumably, in a realistic sense, by extending and expanding it's politicalcontrol and influence). Keeping the Ashes does risk people being dominated and controlled by the Chantry. Keeping it has a cost.

If, of course, your position is that the Chantry is such a bad thing and that's what's bad about it. Otherwise, keeping the Ashes has much, much less cost than immortal souls. For a modern analogy, I'd much rather China discover the cure to everything than let everyone else go without it.

And the matter of the fact is you don't have to destroy the Ashes to keep it from the Chantry if that's your concern. You can simply not tell people (and kill the good Brother to keep it quiet), and then keep it safe for future usage: whether you want to keep it as a quiet reserve to heal yourself or other people in the future, sprinkle it on the masses for general good, or just study it secretly in the future to try and see if it is a natural occurance. You already needed it once: why would you expect to never want access to it ever again.

Edit: Wynne harps on you that you're the only salvation for Ferelden.  Killing you is FAR worse than destroying the ashes.  It dooms the country she is claiming to want to save.

She's also really, really emotional at that point, and can't be counted on to be a rational decision maker at that point.

As if that's unique to her.

[ejoslin]

There are a limited amount of ashes, though, and pretty, well, profane to use them as a curative, correct?

I'm not arguing against myself, however. I see the anvil and the ashes as very different.  You're also misstating my argument (which possibly is my fault for not being clear enough I suppose). If you keep the anvil, there will be suffering and torture and eternal slavery and abuse of this.  If you destroy the ashes, nothing really changes as no one knows they exist.

Oh, and killing Brother Genetivi makes no difference. It's not like it's a huge secret that Arl Eamon was ill, the knights sent out on a quest ot find the urn, and that he was revived with something stronger than magic.

Of course, metagaming tells you that the chantry never gets a hold of them.

And I'm not sure trying to kill someone is an appropriate response for a morally upright person when you do something that makes you lose your temper (Wynne was not threatened in any way when you destroy the ashes -- so you can't claim self defense). That's an aside from that actual ramifications of her success.

The weird thing is, Wynne claims to not be religious.

Edit: Formatting.  Wow, I over use the return key!

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 septembre 2010 - 03:22 .

[Addai]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I never denied she was emotional then. But you can hardly claim it's unjustified: on what grounds is destroying the Ashes necessary for facing the Blight?

What I can never figure out is why a devout Andrastian would just accept that pouring dragon blood into Andraste's remains would render them useless.  Isn't that quite the lack of faith?  I fault Leliana more for that than Wynne, since she's big on the "the Maker is everywhere" mystical philosophy.  However Wynne should be more practical.  As Zevran and others point out, what is the point of antagonizing the cultists further, forcing you to kill them, over a pile of dust that you don't even know for sure has magical properties?  It's not as if the Chantry can even access them unless you also risk your life to kill the dragon.

[Dean_the_Young]

MariSkep wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I never denied she was emotional then. But you can hardly claim it's unjustified: on what grounds is destroying the Ashes necessary for facing the Blight?

On what grounds is she justified in killing you? 

Unjustified inbeing irrationally emotional is what I meant.

Justified in killing you after the Blight is another question.

For what? 

Call me simple but I don't understand why she has any right to kill you for destroying the Ashes.

Simple.[/hand][/levity]

The simplest form is holding you accountable for the lives lost that could/would have been saved with the Ashes had you not destroyed them. For the same reason that defiling them rather than taking a pinch for Eamon would effectively kill him, keeping the Ashes from other patients in need would in effect be killing them when they could have survived. It's the same displacement of responsibility that, say, deliberately letting the water supplies of a desert outpost drain away is, even though you know that people at some point will need that water to survive. You, personally, didn't kill them, but you certainly knocked out the necessity of their survival as surely as if you had knocked the cup of water out of their hand.
 
Infact, it's the same type of risk to future known unknown-people down the line that people are claiming to hate Wynn for. If Wynn does kill you, Ferelden is doomed because a preventable catastrophe (the ArchDemon and the Blight) can not be prevented (because the Warden is dead/gone). But the same applies to the people who would be saved by the Ashes, and the consequences thereafter. It's merely a difference of likely scale, not of type. (And it might not be a difference of scale after all: would the Blight be winnable without Eamon, after all? Will there never be a similar crisis of such gravity?)


Then, of course, there are the other things that are lost forever without the Ashes as well. Those saved would give a source of hope to the world, or at least the Andraste-following portion, and that sort of thing is unquantifiable in its aspects. And unquantifiable things are things people do fight for, and do very illogical things for regardless of bigger picture stuff.

Morrigan believes an Old God's soul is something that should be preserved, and without it she'll leave Ferelden to whatever might happen, and she unquestionably does know why Wardens are literally necessary. Zevran wanted a sort of penance and punishment, and so tried to doom Ferelden by setting an ambush for the Wardens: he might not have known the literalness of that, but he didn't care either.

Yes, Wynn will try and kill you for killing what she sees as a great gift for all the land. It isn't her most rational moment by far. But it doesn't make her a horrible person to be hated.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 03 septembre 2010 - 04:32 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Addai67 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I never denied she was emotional then. But you can hardly claim it's unjustified: on what grounds is destroying the Ashes necessary for facing the Blight?

What I can never figure out is why a devout Andrastian would just accept that pouring dragon blood into Andraste's remains would render them useless.  Isn't that quite the lack of faith?  I fault Leliana more for that than Wynne, since she's big on the "the Maker is everywhere" mystical philosophy.  However Wynne should be more practical.  As Zevran and others point out, what is the point of antagonizing the cultists further, forcing you to kill them, over a pile of dust that you don't even know for sure has magical properties?  It's not as if the Chantry can even access them unless you also risk your life to kill the dragon.

Nothing in the Andrastian faith implies that Andraste's form was unbreakable. She was, after all, harmed by flames. Desecration is something Andrastians accept.

If the ashes do work, I'd argue that that's entirely worth killing the cultists over. The Grey Wardens alone could take great benefit of them, even if they were stolen later and stuffed into a sack.

[Addai]

I'm saying you shouldn't need a physical remnant in order to get the miraculous healing powers of the Maker. Oghren's comments suggest it's all lyrium anyway, but even a devout Andrastian should have more faith than to think that a blood magic ritual could outdo Andraste's healing of the faithful. What does that say about your religion if it's so flimsy?



And where is it written that the Grey Wardens' duty is to preserve and spread Andrastianism? As I see this quest, you're just doing what you need to do to convince Teagan and Isolde to get off their asses and give you Redcliffe troops whether Eamon recovers or not. If Wynne succeeds in killing you, how does that help the Chantry or anyone else if the Blight then covers Ferelden?

[Dean_the_Young]

ejoslin wrote...

There are a limited amount of ashes, though, and pretty, well, profane to use them as a curative, correct?

Incorrect, since that's exactly what you set out to do with them in the game. Use them as a curative.

I'm not arguing against myself, however. I see the anvil and the ashes as very different.  You're also misstating my argument (which possibly is my fault for not being clear enough I suppose). If you keep the anvil, there will be suffering and torture and eternal slavery and abuse of this.  If you destroy the ashes, nothing really changes as no one knows they exist.

You're mixing positive and negative steps in your actions. The burden is on the proof of harm if you keep them, not if you destroy one and keep the other. If you destroy the anvil, there will be no suffering and torture and eternal slavery from it either, and that certainly isn't the argument you intend.

The argument you have to make is like for like. If you keep the Anvil, what are the costs? If you destroy it? The Ashes, for both the same?

The reason for keeping the Anvil, after all, is that while people can and likely will be forced to suffer for it, more people can be helped. The Dwarves alone can be more or less guarded from extinction to the Darkspawn with the golems.

Likewise, the reason for keeping the Ashes is that people can be helped.

Oh, and killing Brother Genetivi makes no difference. It's not like it's a huge secret that Arl Eamon was ill, the knights sent out on a quest ot find the urn, and that he was revived with something stronger than magic.

Of course, metagaming tells you that the chantry never gets a hold of them.

The location of where the Ashes were, if it was the Ashes at all (and not some exotic antidote), can be silenced with the Death of Genetivi and the agreement of (any present) party members. Without someone to guide them back, let alone where the trail really went, only the Warden and the Party he has then knows.

Arl Eamon's recovery is weak circumstantial evidence of the Ashes. After all, Loghain intended to give him an antidote, a fact we can know from outside material which proves that an in-universe alternative exists.

And I'm not sure trying to kill someone is an appropriate response for a morally upright person when you do something that makes you lose your temper (Wynne was not threatened in any way when you destroy the ashes -- so you can't claim self defense). That's an aside from that actual ramifications of her success.

The weird thing is, Wynne claims to not be religious.

Edit: Formatting.  Wow, I over use the return key!

She doesn't need to be a zealot to think an apparent religious relic can have great positive effects. If the Catholic Church found that, say, entering the grave of a Pope cured AIDs, I'd think that could be the greatest discovery of the century.

[Addai]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Morrigan believes an Old God's soul is something that should be preserved, and without it she'll leave Ferelden to whatever might happen, and she unquestionably does know why Wardens are literally necessary.

... but doesn't try to kill you if she doesn't get her way.

More irony about the supposedly "evil" mage vs. mage McSmartypants.

[Dean_the_Young]

Addai67 wrote...

I'm saying you shouldn't need a physical remnant in order to get the miraculous healing powers of the Maker. Oghren's comments suggest it's all lyrium anyway, but even a devout Andrastian should have more faith than to think that a blood magic ritual could outdo Andraste's healing of the faithful. What does that say about your religion if it's so flimsy?

That you don't understand their religion, and impose your own expectations onto it?

The Andrastian religion believe in holy artificats, but also that virtually all claims of miracles and signs of the Maker's presence are mistaken from something else. They aren't the Catholic Church, in which every artifact from Jeruselem could be passed off as an accredited holy relic.

And where is it written that the Grey Wardens' duty is to preserve and spread Andrastianism? As I see this quest, you're just doing what you need to do to convince Teagan and Isolde to get off their asses and give you Redcliffe troops whether Eamon recovers or not. If Wynne succeeds in killing you, how does that help the Chantry or anyone else if the Blight then covers Ferelden?

The Grey Wardens are an Andrastian-tied organizatoin, according to the history of the Blights. At least according to the Dragon Age wiki about the second Blight...
---
The Second Blight and the Chantry...
In 1:5 Divine, approximately 200 years since the slaying of Dumat, the archdemon Zazikel rose to lead the Second Blight. The entire city of Nordbotten — the very place where the Grey Wardens first appeared on the battlefield — was destroyed before a defense could be organized. The Tevinter Imperium withdrew from the Anderfels, abandoning it in an attempt to protect central Tevinter. The Anderfels area was in much trouble, and even the Grey Warden headquarters in Weisshaupt came under siege by the darkspawn.
Fortunately, the armies of the recently founded Orlesian Empire under the command of Emperor Kordillus Drakon I proved both motivated and capable of standing up to the Blight. After several victories against the darkspawn, Drakon's army lifted the siege of Weisshaupt in 1:33 Divine and proceeded to save the rest of the Anderfels together with the Wardens. The Anderfels joined with the Orlesian Empire, and the Grey Wardens were sufficiently impressed by Drakon's actions to convert to the Chantry of Andraste.
In the following decades, the Blight was again slowly pushed back and the Grey Wardens took command of the war. The archdemon Zazikel was finally confronted and slain by Grey Wardens in 1:95 Divine at Starkhaven in the Free Marches. 

--- 

Regardless, the Wardens are certainly not an anti-Andrastian organization, and so justifications (not necessarily made by you, of course) that destroying the Ashes is to put it to the Chantry are certainly out of place.

[Dean_the_Young]

Addai67 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Morrigan believes an Old God's soul is something that should be preserved, and without it she'll leave Ferelden to whatever might happen, and she unquestionably does know why Wardens are literally necessary.

... but doesn't try to kill you if she doesn't get her way.

More irony about the supposedly "evil" mage vs. mage McSmartypants.

Morrigan also can't stop you from not helping her, while a present-Wynn and Leliana can stop you. Morrigan needs you agreement, and killing you if you disagree does nothing in her favor. Leliana and Wynn's objectives can be met. Not only two different people, but two different crisis.

[Sarah1281]

Morrigan also can't stop you from not helping her, while a present-Wynn and Leliana can stop you. Morrigan needs you agreement, and killing you if you disagree does nothing in her favor. Leliana and Wynn's objectives can be met. Not only two different people, but two different crisis.

Except that they do nothing but watch as you actually poison the ashes and only try to kill you afterwards when nothing can be done and their relic is already lost.

[ejoslin]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

There are a limited amount of ashes, though, and pretty, well, profane to use them as a curative, correct?

Incorrect, since that's exactly what you set out to do with them in the game. Use them as a curative.

I'm not arguing against myself, however. I see the anvil and the ashes as very different.  You're also misstating my argument (which possibly is my fault for not being clear enough I suppose). If you keep the anvil, there will be suffering and torture and eternal slavery and abuse of this.  If you destroy the ashes, nothing really changes as no one knows they exist.

You're mixing positive and negative steps in your actions. The burden is on the proof of harm if you keep them, not if you destroy one and keep the other. If you destroy the anvil, there will be no suffering and torture and eternal slavery from it either, and that certainly isn't the argument you intend.

The argument you have to make is like for like. If you keep the Anvil, what are the costs? If you destroy it? The Ashes, for both the same?

The reason for keeping the Anvil, after all, is that while people can and likely will be forced to suffer for it, more people can be helped. The Dwarves alone can be more or less guarded from extinction to the Darkspawn with the golems.

Likewise, the reason for keeping the Ashes is that people can be helped.

Oh, and killing Brother Genetivi makes no difference. It's not like it's a huge secret that Arl Eamon was ill, the knights sent out on a quest ot find the urn, and that he was revived with something stronger than magic.

Of course, metagaming tells you that the chantry never gets a hold of them.

The location of where the Ashes were, if it was the Ashes at all (and not some exotic antidote), can be silenced with the Death of Genetivi and the agreement of (any present) party members. Without someone to guide them back, let alone where the trail really went, only the Warden and the Party he has then knows.

Arl Eamon's recovery is weak circumstantial evidence of the Ashes. After all, Loghain intended to give him an antidote, a fact we can know from outside material which proves that an in-universe alternative exists.

And I'm not sure trying to kill someone is an appropriate response for a morally upright person when you do something that makes you lose your temper (Wynne was not threatened in any way when you destroy the ashes -- so you can't claim self defense). That's an aside from that actual ramifications of her success.

The weird thing is, Wynne claims to not be religious.

Edit: Formatting.  Wow, I over use the return key!

She doesn't need to be a zealot to think an apparent religious relic can have great positive effects. If the Catholic Church found that, say, entering the grave of a Pope cured AIDs, I'd think that could be the greatest discovery of the century.

I was responding to YOU saying that they would be curing everyone.  That's why I said there were only a limited amount and it would most likely be considered profane for them to be used that way.  Until they're all gone, that is.  

You keep saying that the ashes will cure everyone forever and ever, and that just isn't so.

And no, the ashes and anvil, saying they're the same, is setting up a strawman to tear down.  You can't use that as an argument as it is NOT established, and many disagree with you that destroying them or keeping them has the same impact.  There is NO harm to destroying the ashes done -- no one knows they exist, and no one would learn of their destruction.  There may be rumors, but it would not destroy lives, not having them.  The good of not destroying them is, at best, limited as they are limited.  

Could the ashes have great positive effects? Sure, they could also have great negative ones.  Or none at all.  But what you DO know, and Wynne knows as well, is destroying the WARDENS dooms ferelden

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 septembre 2010 - 05:04 .

[Addai]

I don't know where you get the idea that the Wardens don't oppose the Chantry at times to suit their needs. Cf. the recruitment of Alistair and Anders. Just because they got zealot at one point in their history is irrelevant- they also get political at times, it doesn't make that a good thing. As Duncan tells Alistair in Ostagar if you bring up Morrigan and Flemeth, Chantry business is not Grey Warden business. Naturally you can choose to RP it however you like.



This whole discussion is rather silly, though. If the Warden is committing some great evil in defiling the ashes because lives could maybe-hopefully be cured of disease by them, then Wynne is committing a great evil by knowingly trying to kill the only two Wardens left in Ferelden when she will go on and on about how you are the hope of humanity. As I've said multiple times, Wynne's greatest fault in my mind is hypocrisy. This is the most egregious example of it. In this case, it's also a futile stupidity. She has to know that all she's doing is committing suicide. Hurrah for religious martyrdom, I suppose.

[Reaverwind]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Morrigan also can't stop you from not helping her, while a present-Wynn and Leliana can stop you. Morrigan needs you agreement, and killing you if you disagree does nothing in her favor. Leliana and Wynn's objectives can be met. Not only two different people, but two different crisis.

Except that they do nothing but watch as you actually poison the ashes and only try to kill you afterwards when nothing can be done and their relic is already lost.

It's ironic - Wynne makes no attempt to stop you prior to the deed, and then proceeds to make the situation worse in a suicidal attempt to eliminate the Wardens.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 03 septembre 2010 - 05:21 .

[LobselVith8]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'm impressed people have such energy and desire to spare to hate and wish great amounts of pain on someone who's biggest crime is self-righteous moralizing nagging.

Her biggest crime is actually attempted murder of the last Grey Wardens of Ferelden during a time of Blight for merely a misunderstanding of words at the tower, or for defiling Andraste's ashes even though Wynne claims not to be religious. She would see Ferrelden destroyed, and quite possibly even worse, in favor of self righteous temper tantrums.

So, basically, when you screwed up and implied you were going to kill her and all the innocent mages in the tower... or when you shat on a holy relic that could bring a great amoung of good and hope to the world in desperate need of it.

A defensive reaction to your own ****up, or to one of the most evil-leaning choices in the game. Still not that horrible, all party members considered.

Edit: Actually, that is too harsh, I admit. I should assume you're fair and evenhanded, after all: no doubt you also hate Leliana (who will try to kill you for the Ashes), Zevran (for trying to kill you in the first place),  Loghain (for obvious reasons). Possibly Sten and Oghren as well, since they'll fight with naked blades against you as well, depending on what you do or do not say.

Although I wouldn't favor culling the Circle (since my Warden is a mage) I can't help but see that Wynne will try to kill you if you simply agree with Morrigan's assessment of the Circle and the Chantry, and she says and does nothing to stop the templars from culling the Circle if you agree with Cullen and say that not one of the mages can be risked because of the blood mage revolt.

As for pouring blood on the Urn, I don't see why Wynne would be surprised considering that the Warden openly states the intent to destroy the ashes to Kolgrim, and the Chantry can use the religious symbol that the ashes of Andraste represent to strengthen their hold on the faithful throughout Thedas, so an elf who is aware of the massacre of the Dales or a mage who has lived through the oppressive system of the templars at the Circle might want to prevent the Chantry from gaining any more power to hurt people.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The simplest form is holding you accountable for the lives lost that could/would have been saved with the Ashes had you not destroyed them. For the same reason that defiling them rather than taking a pinch for Eamon would effectively kill him, keeping the Ashes from other patients in need would in effect be killing them when they could have survived. It's the same displacement of responsibility that, say, deliberately letting the water supplies of a desert outpost drain away is, even though you know that people at some point will need that water to survive. You, personally, didn't kill them, but you certainly knocked out the necessity of their survival as surely as if you had knocked the cup of water out of their hand.
 
Infact, it's the same type of risk to future known unknown-people down the line that people are claiming to hate Wynn for. If Wynn does kill you, Ferelden is doomed because a preventable catastrophe (the ArchDemon and the Blight) can not be prevented (because the Warden is dead/gone). But the same applies to the people who would be saved by the Ashes, and the consequences thereafter. It's merely a difference of likely scale, not of type. (And it might not be a difference of scale after all: would the Blight be winnable without Eamon, after all? Will there never be a similar crisis of such gravity?)

Then, of course, there are the other things that are lost forever without the Ashes as well. Those saved would give a source of hope to the world, or at least the Andraste-following portion, and that sort of thing is unquantifiable in its aspects. And unquantifiable things are things people do fight for, and do very illogical things for regardless of bigger picture stuff.

I think the Dalish elves, the city elves, and the mages throughout Thedas might argue that their fate hasn't been aided by the existance of the Chantry. The homeland of the Dalish is gone and the mages have been under the heel of drug addicted templars for over hundreds of years. Why should the ashes be spared when someone wanting to prevent further bloodshed as a result of a future Exalted March (like the one the Divine contemplates against Orzammar for harboring free mages) can steam the power that the Chantry holds by destroying the ashes? There's the potential for more lives to be lost than saved because of the Chantry using the ashes for its own gain, since the Chantry locates the ashes regardless of whether Genitivi is alive or not.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Regardless, the Wardens are certainly not an anti-Andrastian organization, and so justifications (not necessarily made by you, of course) that destroying the Ashes is to put it to the Chantry are certainly out of place.

As Duncan tells the Warden, their purpose is to stop the Blight. Their use of a type of blood magic to give recruits the taint is certainly not condoned by the Chantry. I don't see any reason a Warden in DA:O would need to protect the interests of the Chantry, especially a Dalish elf or a Mage Warden.

[Zjarcal]

Reaverwind wrote...

It's ironic - Wynne makes no attempt to stop you prior to the deed, and then proceeds to make the situation worse in a suicidal attempt to eliminate the Wardens.

Wynne is pretty suicidal. When you agree with Cullen she attacks the entire party by herself. Did she really think she had a chance to survive that battle?

[ejoslin]

Zjarcal wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

It's ironic - Wynne makes no attempt to stop you prior to the deed, and then proceeds to make the situation worse in a suicidal attempt to eliminate the Wardens.

Wynne is pretty suicidal. When you agree with Cullen she attacks the entire party by herself. Did she really think she had a chance to survive that battle?

Perhaps its the pride demon in her (if there is one) that thinks she did everything and that she just carried the rest of the group.

Hah, not that I actually believe her spirit is a pride demon.  But I do think she is pretty good at overestimating her own importance on her own.

[Addai]

Zjarcal wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

It's ironic - Wynne makes no attempt to stop you prior to the deed, and then proceeds to make the situation worse in a suicidal attempt to eliminate the Wardens.

Wynne is pretty suicidal. When you agree with Cullen she attacks the entire party by herself. Did she really think she had a chance to survive that battle?

Even Godwin is smart enough to figure this out.    "I mean, have you seen you?"

Or, as the immortal Sgt. Kylon says, "And people voluntarily attack you.  Are they just stupid?"

[Giggles_Manically]

Kylon is definently awsome.

[CalJones]

Yes, Wynne definitely fell off a cart full of stupid.