1396 réponses à ce sujet

[Reaverwind]

Zjarcal wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

It's ironic - Wynne makes no attempt to stop you prior to the deed, and then proceeds to make the situation worse in a suicidal attempt to eliminate the Wardens.

Wynne is pretty suicidal. When you agree with Cullen she attacks the entire party by herself. Did she really think she had a chance to survive that battle?

I honestly expected the "wise woman" to argue when my character conceded that Cullen might be right. At that point, my character is still talking and hasn't really committed to anything. Instead, Wynne promptly commits warden-assisted suicide.

[Zjarcal]

ejoslin wrote...

Perhaps its the pride demon in her (if there is one) that thinks she did everything and that she just carried the rest of the group.

Hah, not that I actually believe her spirit is a pride demon.  But I do think she is pretty good at overestimating her own importance on her own.

I'm not sure where I lie on the pride demon theory, but we could be talking about a coward pride demon. Proud enough to convince Wynne that she can defeat an entire party alone, but coward enough to not actually show up during the battle.

Addai67 wrote...
Even Godwin is smart enough to figure this out.    "I mean, have you seen you?"

Or, as the immortal Sgt. Kylon says, "And people voluntarily attack you.  Are they just stupid?"

When Godwin is smarter than you, that says a lot. And OMG, Sgt. Kylon! I just love the way he delivers that line.

[ejoslin]

Reaverwind wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

It's ironic - Wynne makes no attempt to stop you prior to the deed, and then proceeds to make the situation worse in a suicidal attempt to eliminate the Wardens.

Wynne is pretty suicidal. When you agree with Cullen she attacks the entire party by herself. Did she really think she had a chance to survive that battle?

I honestly expected the "wise woman" to argue when my character conceded that Cullen might be right. At that point, my character is still talking and hasn't really committed to anything. Instead, Wynne promptly commits warden-assisted suicide.

Even Zevran argues with you over it.  Well, I was convinced a long time ago that Zevran is smarter than Wynne anyway 

(am I turning EVERY thread into a ZevLuv thread today?  Why, I think I am.  My apologies)

[Dean_the_Young]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Morrigan also can't stop you from not helping her, while a present-Wynn and Leliana can stop you. Morrigan needs you agreement, and killing you if you disagree does nothing in her favor. Leliana and Wynn's objectives can be met. Not only two different people, but two different crisis.

Except that they do nothing but watch as you actually poison the ashes and only try to kill you afterwards when nothing can be done and their relic is already lost.

That can be explained as being as much a part of the medium (a game) as being too far away to intervene. It's not like anyone else interrupts you mid-choice action.

[Sarah1281]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Morrigan also can't stop you from not helping her, while a present-Wynn and Leliana can stop you. Morrigan needs you agreement, and killing you if you disagree does nothing in her favor. Leliana and Wynn's objectives can be met. Not only two different people, but two different crisis.

Except that they do nothing but watch as you actually poison the ashes and only try to kill you afterwards when nothing can be done and their relic is already lost.

That can be explained as being as much a part of the medium (a game) as being too far away to intervene. It's not like anyone else interrupts you mid-choice action.

It's a long walk from Kolgrim to the actual Urn.

[Zjarcal]

Reaverwind wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

It's ironic - Wynne makes no attempt to stop you prior to the deed, and then proceeds to make the situation worse in a suicidal attempt to eliminate the Wardens.

Wynne is pretty suicidal. When you agree with Cullen she attacks the entire party by herself. Did she really think she had a chance to survive that battle?

I honestly expected the "wise woman" to argue when my character conceded that Cullen might be right. At that point, my character is still talking and hasn't really committed to anything. Instead, Wynne promptly commits warden-assisted suicide.

Indeed. Her reaction there doesn't make any sense. Cullen's proposal might be, as Zevran describes it, "a mass murder" (not sure if that's what he actually says but it's what he means), but couldn't she just have said something like "Perhaps it'd be better to decide until we see the situation for ourselves. Hopefully you'll change your mind."

I mean, for all we know, everyone might already be dead or turned into an abomination in the upper room. Why on earth would she just attack. Apparently she not only thought she could defeat the party by herself, she could also take on Uldred and everyone else alone? Yes, Wynne you go ahead and try that.

[Dean_the_Young]

ejoslin wrote...

I was responding to YOU saying that they would be curing everyone.  That's why I said there were only a limited amount and it would most likely be considered profane for them to be used that way.  Until they're all gone, that is.  

You keep saying that the ashes will cure everyone forever and ever, and that just isn't so.

Except... I never did say that. I game a simple example of how else the the Ashes could be used that would not involve being 'exploited' by the Chantry.

And no, the ashes and anvil, saying they're the same, is setting up a strawman to tear down.  You can't use that as an argument as it is NOT established, and many disagree with you that destroying them or keeping them has the same impact.  There is NO harm to destroying the ashes done -- no one knows they exist, and no one would learn of their destruction.  There may be rumors, but it would not destroy lives, not having them.  The good of not destroying them is, at best, limited as they are limited. 

The harm from destroying the ashes is of the same type of destroying the Anvil: people who's lives would be saved and benefited, well it does not happen.

Consider that, for a minute. 'No' harm? If you did not take a pinch for Arl Eamon before, there would be 'no' harm? Why does the frame of reference stop after you take them to save one man? Why not the next one, or the one after? The Ashes, in their pure form, are potent medicine. Are you really willing to say that destroying medicine, even if no one realizes you've done it, has done no harm? I'm sure you do not, because the next logical argument is that unknown crimes don't harm people.

Your argument was heavily flawed because you were comparing the positive effects of keeping the Anvil of the Void (enslavement, abuse, a torturous transition process) to the negative effects of NOT keeping the Ashes. Positive effects need to be compared to positive effects, negative to negative.

Could the ashes have great positive effects? Sure, they could also have great negative ones.  Or none at all.  But what you DO know, and Wynne knows as well, is destroying the WARDENS dooms ferelden

What Wynn knows at that moment is highly debatable, considering how far from impartial she can be at that time. Stress and emotional investment remove objectivity: almost no one in a City Elf origin will give up their cousin to be raped, even though one woman raped is, from a distance, far better than an entire retaliation assault. Most people would even say that a rape is much better than just one death. But almost no one claims to be that impartial when the time comes.

But the great negative effects of the Ashes, that the Chantry could abuse them (however bad an abuse of a new medicine is), are in no way guaranteed, and preventing them does not require desecrating the Urn.

[Addai]

You don't have to play it that you're taking the ashes as a potent medicine. As far as you know when you're up there, it's just dust. As I mentioned up above, I play it that I'm taking them to satisfy Teagan that he's done all he can do to heal Eamon so that he'll assume the arling himself and you get your troops.



You're arguing that it's fine that she try to kill the Warden(s) just because she's emotional? That doesn't really cut it for a supposedly moral, compassionate person. That makes her an unstable maniac.

[Dean_the_Young]

Addai67 wrote...

I don't know where you get the idea that the Wardens don't oppose the Chantry at times to suit their needs. Cf. the recruitment of Alistair and Anders. Just because they got zealot at one point in their history is irrelevant- they also get political at times, it doesn't make that a good thing. As Duncan tells Alistair in Ostagar if you bring up Morrigan and Flemeth, Chantry business is not Grey Warden business. Naturally you can choose to RP it however you like.

You do understand that organizations, however close allied, still clash on a small scale? It doesn't mean they aren't allied with eachother. Even arms of the same government clash: the CIA fights with the FBI, the Army with the Navy with the Airforce, the Defense Department with the State Department.

I don't see where any absolutes were raised, or why they should be countered since they never were. But, as a matter of policy, the Codex implies that the Grey Wardens, yes, are a pro-Chantry group. Which is what you asked.

Roleplaying can explain any choice, but that doesn't mean those choices are considered 'proper' in-game. Chantry business is not Grey Warden business, and vice versa, and both sides largely keep out of it. (You recruiting Anders, after all, technically intervenes in the Chantry side.) But Grey Warden business does not come with an anti-Chantry intent or motivation.

This whole discussion is rather silly, though. If the Warden is committing some great evil in defiling the ashes because lives could maybe-hopefully be cured of disease by them, then Wynne is committing a great evil by knowingly trying to kill the only two Wardens left in Ferelden when she will go on and on about how you are the hope of humanity. As I've said multiple times, Wynne's greatest fault in my mind is hypocrisy. This is the most egregious example of it. In this case, it's also a futile stupidity. She has to know that all she's doing is committing suicide. Hurrah for religious martyrdom, I suppose.

It's her criteria and priorities that matter, not yours. Anyone can create a frame of reference to call anyone else a hypocrite. Wynn's faith in the Grey Wardens rests on that they are, ultimately, a good order, and she believes the good is necessary. Whether she knows about the actual necessity is debatable, but to her view defiling the Ashes is evil, and against what the Grey Wardens are supposed to do. It's a great emotional shock of crossing a certain line, not least because it isn't a necessary action.

You can be as logical person as you want most the time, but under extreme situations lose foresight, hindsight, all objectivity. Emotional distress, like with the Urn, can be one of them. And here's the point about emotionally distressed people: they are emotional.

[Addai]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Morrigan also can't stop you from not helping her, while a present-Wynn and Leliana can stop you. Morrigan needs you agreement, and killing you if you disagree does nothing in her favor. Leliana and Wynn's objectives can be met. Not only two different people, but two different crisis.

Except that they do nothing but watch as you actually poison the ashes and only try to kill you afterwards when nothing can be done and their relic is already lost.

That can be explained as being as much a part of the medium (a game) as being too far away to intervene. It's not like anyone else interrupts you mid-choice action.

It's not just game mechanics that she attacks you before you ever lay a hand on an "innocent" mage.  She attacks you when you imply you might.  In the case of the Urn, she attacks after the fact, when the deed is already done and it's simple revenge.

[ejoslin]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I was responding to YOU saying that they would be curing everyone.  That's why I said there were only a limited amount and it would most likely be considered profane for them to be used that way.  Until they're all gone, that is.  

You keep saying that the ashes will cure everyone forever and ever, and that just isn't so.

Except... I never did say that. I game a simple example of how else the the Ashes could be used that would not involve being 'exploited' by the Chantry.

The harm from destroying the ashes is of the same type of destroying the Anvil: people who's lives would be saved and benefited, well it does not happen.

Consider that, for a minute. 'No' harm? If you did not take a pinch for Arl Eamon before, there would be 'no' harm? Why does the frame of reference stop after you take them to save one man? Why not the next one, or the one after? The Ashes, in their pure form, are potent medicine. Are you really willing to say that destroying medicine, even if no one realizes you've done it, has done no harm? I'm sure you do not, because the next logical argument is that unknown crimes don't harm people.

Your argument was heavily flawed because you were comparing the positive effects of keeping the Anvil of the Void (enslavement, abuse, a torturous transition process) to the negative effects of NOT keeping the Ashes. Positive effects need to be compared to positive effects, negative to negative.

Could the ashes have great positive effects? Sure, they could also have great negative ones.  Or none at all.  But what you DO know, and Wynne knows as well, is destroying the WARDENS dooms ferelden

What Wynn knows at that moment is highly debatable, considering how far from impartial she can be at that time. Stress and emotional investment remove objectivity: almost no one in a City Elf origin will give up their cousin to be raped, even though one woman raped is, from a distance, far better than an entire retaliation assault. Most people would even say that a rape is much better than just one death. But almost no one claims to be that impartial when the time comes.

But the great negative effects of the Ashes, that the Chantry could abuse them (however bad an abuse of a new medicine is), are in no way guaranteed, and preventing them does not require desecrating the Urn.

Looks like you keep saying that the ashes can be used to save all sorts of people.  Until they run out, of course.  And so who decides who lives and dies?  And again, if you use them all up, they're gone anyway.

And I'm not the one who's arguing the anvil -- YOU are.  I'm saying it's not a valid argument.

Ok *sigh* I'll play.

Anvil pros:

Has the potential to save Orzammar with much less bloodshed.  This is major.

Anvil cons:

Much suffering is involved in making golems.
Enslaves souls for eternity
In the past, was used against political opponents and others

Andestre Ashes pros:

Powerful curative, but finite -- deciding who is worthy for use could be an issue.  So maybe not so much a pro as it could easily lead to wars and dissent.

Powerful symbol for people and will strengthen their faith in the chantry.  Again, I'm not sure this would be a pro -- I'm sure the Dalish and most of the dwarves would not consider it such.

Andestre Ashes cons:

This would most likely be used for either power or money making or both.  
Finite amount of ashes -- would most likely lead to issues deciding who is "worthy" to use them.
Would strengthen the Chantry.

See, I'm seeing VERY different issues here.  Which is why I'm done with THIS particular argument.  Comparing the two is false.

Edit: And Wynne is still very wrong, and very annoying

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 septembre 2010 - 07:00 .

[Sarah1281]

I don't see where any absolutes were raised, or why they should be countered since they never were. But, as a matter of policy, the Codex implies that the Grey Wardens, yes, are a pro-Chantry group. Which is what you asked.

You and Alistair are hardly experts on GW policy given how new you are to the Order and so I don't think that it's unrealistic for you not to know about or be particularly concerned about your new Order's traditional alliance with the Chantry that you only find out about from reading a codex that you don't even have to find.

You can be as logical person as you want most the time, but under extreme situations lose foresight, hindsight, all objectivity. Emotional distress, like with the Urn, can be one of them. And here's the point about emotionally distressed people: they are emotional.

Yes, but if IRL you committed multiple murder because you were emotionally distressed, you're still going to be judged and prosecuted for it. Being upset generally does not excuse such violent over-the-top reactions.

[LobselVith8]

There's no reason a Warden from a Dalish or Mage background couldn't destroy the ashes in order to prevent them from being exploited by the Chantry as a means to prevent another Dales or the continued exploitation of the mages of the Circles throughout Thedas by strengthening an organization that treats them as their personal slaves. The fact that Wynne is so pro-Chantry that she tries to convince her apprentice (who nearly died at the hands of the templars at fourteen years old) to return to the Circle shows that maybe she's an archdemon short of a Blight.

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Although I wouldn't favor culling the Circle (since my Warden is a mage) I can't help but see that Wynne will try to kill you if you simply agree with Morrigan's assessment of the Circle and the Chantry, and she says and does nothing to stop the templars from culling the Circle if you agree with Cullen and say that not one of the mages can be risked because of the blood mage revolt.

As for pouring blood on the Urn, I don't see why Wynne would be surprised considering that the Warden openly states the intent to destroy the ashes to Kolgrim, and the Chantry can use the religious symbol that the ashes of Andraste represent to strengthen their hold on the faithful throughout Thedas, so an elf who is aware of the massacre of the Dales or a mage who has lived through the oppressive system of the templars at the Circle might want to prevent the Chantry from gaining any more power to hurt people.

The first admittedly strikes me as bad handling, though it can be explained as Wynn being convinced by what she's seen in the attempt to rescue the tower and beat the Big Bad. The second, though, is simple: she can assume you're lying to Kogrim, or that you won't go through with it, because it she really doesn't think you'll go that far.

Wynn doesn't see the Chantry as an all-important evil that must be stopped at every turn at all costs. Why their using the Urns to justify their influence would be such a great issue for her is...? She is, after all, a mage who has lived through the oppressive system of the Templars and come out pretty well overall.

I think the Dalish elves, the city elves, and the mages throughout Thedas might argue that their fate hasn't been aided by the existance of the Chantry. The homeland of the Dalish is gone and the mages have been under the heel of drug addicted templars for over hundreds of years. Why should the ashes be spared when someone wanting to prevent further bloodshed as a result of a future Exalted March (like the one the Divine contemplates against Orzammar for harboring free mages) can steam the power that the Chantry holds by destroying the ashes? There's the potential for more lives to be lost than saved because of the Chantry using the ashes for its own gain, since the Chantry locates the ashes regardless of whether Genitivi is alive or not.

Again, this presumes a Elf's view on the importance of the Urn, not Wynn's. Destroying the urn doesn't bring or reverse or rectify any of the Chantry's wrongs: heck, the Urn predates the Chantry. It's as much a historic artifiact of the Tevinters (their conquerer), the Fereldens (thier most favorite daughter), or even the elves (their liberator).

What, pray tell, implies the Chantry needs the Urn to launch another Exalted March? What sort of exalted March does revealing the Urn to the world even cause, that did not have significant Chantry concern already?

As Duncan tells the Warden, their purpose is to stop the Blight. Their use of a type of blood magic to give recruits the taint is certainly not condoned by the Chantry. I don't see any reason a Warden in DA:O would need to protect the interests of the Chantry, especially a Dalish elf or a Mage Warden.

How does destroying the Urn help stop the Blight? Why does preserving the Urn not help stop the next? What in stopping the Blight necessitates the Grey Wardens striking the greatest blow that would never be known to the Chantry?

[Dean_the_Young]

Addai67 wrote...

You don't have to play it that you're taking the ashes as a potent medicine. As far as you know when you're up there, it's just dust. As I mentioned up above, I play it that I'm taking them to satisfy Teagan that he's done all he can do to heal Eamon so that he'll assume the arling himself and you get your troops..

What does what you're playing it as have to do with Wynn's perspective? Is she supposed to be an all-compliant psychic to know your intent?

You're arguing that it's fine that she try to kill the Warden(s) just because she's emotional? That doesn't really cut it for a supposedly moral, compassionate person. That makes her an unstable maniac

No, it doesn't. It makes her a human figure, just like most the rest of your party, and just like the rest of humanity. It makes her normal. Normal people have points where, when pushed far enough, they lose objectivity. Whether it's because someone's torturing your daughter or relishing in a great social taboo, people have things they respond emotionally to. It is normal. It is not something abhorrent. You do not want a society of perfectly objective people, because perfectly objective people make the worst sort of monsters, not monsters of passion but of dispassion, and they'll do it to the very people you'd hate them most for doing it to because they are dispassionate and logical.

There only one companion who will not try and kill you, oppose your, or abandon you at the time of the nation's greatest need if you push the wrong buttons in Dragon Age, and that is Dog. And you don't have to save Dog. Everyone else is in the same boat as Wynn: they have values, priorities, and feelings, and if you step on them they will react whatever you think they should. Oghren will fight with you. Sten will fight with you. Leliana will fight with you. Shale will fight with you. Zevran will fight with you. Morrigan and Alistair won't fight with you, but they will abandon you.

People are people. If you crush what they hold important, they retaliate. There's nothing maniac or especially hypocritical about it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Addai67 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Morrigan also can't stop you from not helping her, while a present-Wynn and Leliana can stop you. Morrigan needs you agreement, and killing you if you disagree does nothing in her favor. Leliana and Wynn's objectives can be met. Not only two different people, but two different crisis.

Except that they do nothing but watch as you actually poison the ashes and only try to kill you afterwards when nothing can be done and their relic is already lost.

That can be explained as being as much a part of the medium (a game) as being too far away to intervene. It's not like anyone else interrupts you mid-choice action.

It's not just game mechanics that she attacks you before you ever lay a hand on an "innocent" mage.  She attacks you when you imply you might.  In the case of the Urn, she attacks after the fact, when the deed is already done and it's simple revenge.

Both are emotional responses. The better question is, why are you implying it in the first place to anyone in a high-stress high-danger scenario if you don't mean it? That's more stupid on your part than hers.

To call it simply revenge is downplay all the emotional involvement in and of Justice, of which revenge is just a part. Justice is a idea in which a large part of it is that transgressors pay for their crimes, even though the crimes are in the past and are already done. All trials and all punishments are carried out after the fact.

[Reaverwind]

Zjarcal wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

It's ironic - Wynne makes no attempt to stop you prior to the deed, and then proceeds to make the situation worse in a suicidal attempt to eliminate the Wardens.

Wynne is pretty suicidal. When you agree with Cullen she attacks the entire party by herself. Did she really think she had a chance to survive that battle?

I honestly expected the "wise woman" to argue when my character conceded that Cullen might be right. At that point, my character is still talking and hasn't really committed to anything. Instead, Wynne promptly commits warden-assisted suicide.

Indeed. Her reaction there doesn't make any sense. Cullen's proposal might be, as Zevran describes it, "a mass murder" (not sure if that's what he actually says but it's what he means), but couldn't she just have said something like "Perhaps it'd be better to decide until we see the situation for ourselves. Hopefully you'll change your mind."

I mean, for all we know, everyone might already be dead or turned into an abomination in the upper room. Why on earth would she just attack. Apparently she not only thought she could defeat the party by herself, she could also take on Uldred and everyone else alone? Yes, Wynne you go ahead and try that.

Well, by the time you reach Cullen's cage, it should have been well-established that the Circle has gone to hell in a handbasket. You've found less than a handful of survivors past Wynne's barrier, and there are bodies and signs of demonic corruption everywhere. There's horrible noises coming out of the Harrowing Chamber. One's character can be forgiven for having a pessimistic outlook on saving what few mages remain.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 03 septembre 2010 - 07:33 .

[Dean_the_Young]

ejoslin wrote...
Looks like you keep saying that the ashes can be used to save all sorts of people.  Until they run out, of course.  And so who decides who lives and dies?  And again, if you use them all up, they're gone anyway.

And how is then tantemount to defiling the Urn? Just because the Urn is gone either way does not mean that whatever path you take is equivalent. You're an adult: you know better than that.

And I'm not the one who's arguing the anvil -- YOU are.  I'm saying it's not a valid argument.

Ok *sigh* I'll play.

Anvil pros:

Has the potential to save Orzammar with much less bloodshed.  This is major.

Anvil cons:

Much suffering is involved in making golems.
Enslaves souls for eternity
In the past, was used against political opponents and others

Andestre Ashes pros:

Powerful curative, but finite -- deciding who is worthy for use could be an issue.  So maybe not so much a pro as it could easily lead to wars and dissent.

Powerful symbol for people and will strengthen their faith in the chantry.  Again, I'm not sure this would be a pro -- I'm sure the Dalish and most of the dwarves would not consider it such.

Andestre Ashes cons:

This would most likely be used for either power or money making or both.  
Finite amount of ashes -- would most likely lead to issues deciding who is "worthy" to use them.
Would strengthen the Chantry.

See, I'm seeing VERY different issues here.  Which is why I'm done with THIS particular argument.  Comparing the two is false.

Except you demonstrated why the underlying moral delimmas are similar: the precise details may differ, but you weigh it in the same types of future potential costs/lost benefits calculations, the primary of which are future lives saved versus political fallout costs. Both are traditional 'hidden secret' delimmas.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 03 septembre 2010 - 07:44 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't see where any absolutes were raised, or why they should be countered since they never were. But, as a matter of policy, the Codex implies that the Grey Wardens, yes, are a pro-Chantry group. Which is what you asked.

You and Alistair are hardly experts on GW policy given how new you are to the Order and so I don't think that it's unrealistic for you not to know about or be particularly concerned about your new Order's traditional alliance with the Chantry that you only find out about from reading a codex that you don't even have to find.

But of course. You and Alistair are ignorant (though Alistair tends much closer to the position that is historically true, and leans towards it anyway). That simply wasn't the question raised, however.

You can be as logical person as you want most the time, but under extreme situations lose foresight, hindsight, all objectivity. Emotional distress, like with the Urn, can be one of them. And here's the point about emotionally distressed people: they are emotional.

Yes, but if IRL you committed multiple murder because you were emotionally distressed, you're still going to be judged and prosecuted for it. Being upset generally does not excuse such violent over-the-top reactions.

Sure, but the verdict depends a lot on the circumstances. First-degree pre-meditated murderers go to jail for life or are executed: people defending themselves from perceived threats (Wynn in the Tower) or in response to emotionally-charged reactions do not. People recognized as having acted in good faith or for whatever the ruling determines the greater good may not go to jail at all.

Of course, the Grey Wardens themselves would be institutionalized IRL as well, and replaced with accountable agencies that follow certain guidelines (at least in public). So I don't like this analogy much.

*Yes, I know this is a generality and exceptions abound, but general point applies.

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's no reason a Warden from a Dalish or Mage background couldn't destroy the ashes in order to prevent them from being exploited by the Chantry as a means to prevent another Dales or the continued exploitation of the mages of the Circles throughout Thedas by strengthening an organization that treats them as their personal slaves. The fact that Wynne is so pro-Chantry that she tries to convince her apprentice (who nearly died at the hands of the templars at fourteen years old) to return to the Circle shows that maybe she's an archdemon short of a Blight.

So... what? Because your Warden doesn't agree, Wynn is wrong?

[ejoslin]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Except you demonstrated why the underlying moral delimmas are similar: the precise details may differ, but you weigh it in the same types of future potential costs/lost benefits calculations, the primary of which are future lives saved versus political fallout costs.

First of all, I'm NOT saying you SHOULD defile the ashes.  I'm saying it's not something that Wynne should try and kill you over.  And no, the costs and benefits to the anvil are so much higher I honestly cannot get your point.  Someone getting sick and dying instead of being cured (if they're one of the very few who would have access to that) is NOT the same as someone having molten lyrium poured into the head through their eye sockets, then endure the agony of being shaped by the hammer, to be enslaved for the rest of eternity.  And curing a noble person is not nearly on the same level as having an army that is so much stronger that many many lives, perhaps an entire society, is saved.

But whatever.  In my games, my characters make different decisions.  

And Wynne is still wrong, inconsistent (Wynne-sistant perhaps), and behaving in a way that is so selfish and kneejerk you have to wonder if it is just being emotional.  Because most of the time she's a lot more level headed (misguided and a bit delusional perhaps, but level headed).

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 septembre 2010 - 07:40 .

[Addai]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

You don't have to play it that you're taking the ashes as a potent medicine. As far as you know when you're up there, it's just dust. As I mentioned up above, I play it that I'm taking them to satisfy Teagan that he's done all he can do to heal Eamon so that he'll assume the arling himself and you get your troops..[/quote]What does what you're playing it as have to do with Wynn's perspective? Is she supposed to be an all-compliant psychic to know your intent?[/quote]
You're talking about the ashes as if it's a given that they're a potent medicine.  No one knows that, not even Wynne.  All you really know is that Teagan and Isolde want them so there you are on the mountaintop.

But supposing that all along Wynne assumes you're on this quest out of Andrastian conviction, does that give her the right to kill you?  I mean, are you trying to argue that Wynne is just psycho?

As we've said, the deed is already done, the dragon's blood is already in the ashes, so she's not saving anyone by attacking you.
[quote]
[quote]
You're arguing that it's fine that she try to kill the Warden(s) just because she's emotional? That doesn't really cut it for a supposedly moral, compassionate person. That makes her an unstable maniac[/quote]No, it doesn't. It makes her a human figure, just like most the rest of your party, and just like the rest of humanity. It makes her normal. Normal people have points where, when pushed far enough, they lose objectivity. [/quote][/quote]
LOL  Normal people kill people because of stress and that's just normal?  Ok, tell that to the cops when you go postal on your workplace and see how well it goes over.

I understand NPCs wigging out at certain points and leaving the party.   I love that about the game, actually.  And yes, a lot of them are emotional/ irrational on some level.  It doesn't mean we have to like it or like a particular NPC in spite of it.

Modifié par Addai67, 03 septembre 2010 - 07:41 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Addai67 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

You don't have to play it that you're taking the ashes as a potent medicine. As far as you know when you're up there, it's just dust. As I mentioned up above, I play it that I'm taking them to satisfy Teagan that he's done all he can do to heal Eamon so that he'll assume the arling himself and you get your troops..

What does what you're playing it as have to do with Wynn's perspective? Is she supposed to be an all-compliant psychic to know your intent?

You're talking about the ashes as if it's a given that they're a potent medicine.  No one knows that, not even Wynne.  All you really know is that Teagan and Isolde want them so there you are on the mountaintop.

But supposing that all along Wynne assumes you're on this quest out of Andrastian conviction, does that give her the right to kill you?  I mean, are you trying to argue that Wynne is just psycho?

Why can't Wynn have faith that the Ashes really do exist at this point, considering they've gone through Father Genetivi's research, fought through a great deal of Cultists who believe the Ashes exist, and gone through a magically introspective temple that has the ability to peer into the unspoken places of your mind?

As we've said, the deed is already done, the dragon's blood is already in the ashes, so she's not saving anyone by attacking you.

You do understand that the nature of a response is that it occurs after a stimuli, yes? If someone punched you a few times and then walked away and you did nothing even though it had already passed, you are not in the social majority.

LOL  Normal people kill people because of stress and that's just normal?  Ok, tell that to the cops when you go postal on your workplace and see how well it goes over.

Yes. People kill people over stress, because stress is pretty much everything that effects you. Having a sunburn is a minor stressor. Watching someone being raped is a stressor. Major stressors, which vary from person to person, do push people to extreme actions. Cops are no exception to that, and are certainly familiar with it. 'Killing' isn't common, but then neither is defiling something as significant to someone as the Urn.

The unspoken adjective in the sentence, of course, is 'major.'

I understand NPCs wigging out at certain points and leaving the party.   I love that about the game, actually.  And yes, a lot of them are emotional/ irrational on some level.  It doesn't mean we have to like it or like a particular NPC in spite of it.

Who says you have to like it, or her? But if you intend to hate someone in particular, I at least expect you to be fair about it. So if you're so aghast that someone tries to kill you for something you chose, be aghast at everyone who does that.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 03 septembre 2010 - 08:06 .

[Dean_the_Young]

ejoslin wrote...

First of all, I'm NOT saying you SHOULD defile the ashes.  I'm saying it's not something that Wynne should try and kill you over.

Which origin are we playing about here? Pretty much every origin has something of only personal importance they're glad to kill someone else over.

 And no, the costs and benefits to the anvil are so much higher I honestly cannot get your point.

A pity. Did you miss my mention of a diference of scale between the two, back in that original posting about it?

  Someone getting sick and dying instead of being cured (if they're one of the very few who would have access to that) is NOT the same as someone having molten lyrium poured into the head through their eye sockets, then endure the agony of being shaped by the hammer, to be enslaved for the rest of eternity.

What, and all the Dwarves who will die in the hard, losing war against the Darkspawn without the Anvil (including, after all, those who would be used on the Anvil) don't count as the comparison to those who would die without the Ashes? Those people who will be forced to fight and die in some hypothetical extra March aren't the political victims of keeping the Ashes? Instead you're just going to take what can happen if you keep the Anvil and what can happen if you don't keep the Ashes.

When you selectivly mix and match your comparisons, you can make anything sound better or worse, and distort any similarities.

 And curing a noble person is not nearly on the same level as having an army that is so much stronger that many many lives, perhaps an entire society, is saved.

...why are you repeating the rational for keeping the Anvil of the Void, when you clearly despise it?