1396 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

Who says you have to like it, or her? But if you intend to hate someone in particular, I at least expect you to be fair about it. So if you're so aghast that someone tries to kill you for something you chose, be aghast at everyone who does that.

You need a reason to dislike somebody in particular? It seems to me like it's just an emotional reaction to someone and a far more easily accepted one than 'I tried to kill him because I was severely emotionally disturbed at the time.'

[Dean_the_Young]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Who says you have to like it, or her? But if you intend to hate someone in particular, I at least expect you to be fair about it. So if you're so aghast that someone tries to kill you for something you chose, be aghast at everyone who does that.

You need a reason to dislike somebody in particular? It seems to me like it's just an emotional reaction to someone and a far more easily accepted one than 'I tried to kill him because I was severely emotionally disturbed at the time.'

Breaking the fourth wall here... not really, but then I don't have to like why you don't like, and you don't have to like, and so long as it all stays civil I'm having a grand old time here. And I am trying to be civil.

For the record, I don't like how Wynn lectures, but then I think it's a very good thing that she's willing to, even if I, and only I of course, am already a perfectly fine person who needs no guidance, etc. etc. etc.

Other than that, I have no problem with her. Her opinions are her own, and the only times she'll try to kill you are (a) if you imply you'll kill her and the kiddies in the tower, and I see nothing wrong with that even if I would have changed the implementation, and ( if you defile the Ashes, which I see as being an understandable, and predictable, emotional response by someone who's never been afraid to say she thinks the Chantry is good overall.

However annoying she is, I get far more annoyed at hyperbolisms by people who 'hate' her (and I think that an ugly extreme to hold) for that. And so, being a message forum, I reply for my own interest.

But, since this is the Wynnie the Poo thread, I suppose I should back out of here... for a few days, anyhow.

Have a good day, ladies and gentlemen! Enjoy the holiday!

[Sarah1281]

I know that the whole point of threads are to debate but I just don't like it when people insist that you HAVE to have reasons why you like or dislike a character. If you're talking about an action such as killing/romancing/supporting a character then that you should probably have a reason for but the simple positive or negative emotion response? You can try to figure out what it is that appeals to you or annoys you about a character but sometimes there are characters that bug you for no real reason (Cammen, for instance).

[Dean_the_Young]

General like/dislike doesn't bother me: it's people who get extreme dislike (actual hating, emotional investment and all, and heaven forbid such hyperbole) for things that others do as well that bothers me.



But, since you don't do it, I can see why it might seem that way to you to be apparently lumped in with them.

[ejoslin]

Do people actually HATE Wynne? I mean, I talk about Wynne-hate, but it's all in fun. I'm not sure people actually feel actual hate here.

[Zjarcal]

Even if they hate her, it's hate in a good way. I've always said (and I said this on the other Wynne thread), that I love to have a character like Wynne in the game. I love to hate her because it makes the game feel much more real. When characters are flawed and their views or actions clash with yours, it makes for fine entertainment. I like it that way.

Sheryl Chee did an amazing job writing Wynne. The fact that people have been going for 46 pages talking about Wynne is better than people not talking about her at all.

When it comes to fictional characters, you want to evoke emotions from the audience. If people were indifferent towards Wynne, she'd had been a failure as a character. As it is, she was a resounding success.

A success that I love to hate! 


(I realize that I may be using the word hate a bit lightly, but who cares, it's a fictional character)

Modifié par Zjarcal, 03 septembre 2010 - 09:11 .

[Burritos]

yo I hate wynne she ****ed about my romances with Morrigan and Leliana.

[Reaverwind]

Zjarcal wrote...

Even if they hate her, it's hate in a good way. I've always said (and I said on the other Wynne thread), that I love to have a character like Wynne in the game. I love to hate her because it makes the game feel much more real. When characters are flawed and their views or actions clash with yours, it makes for fine entertainment. I like it that way.

Sheryl Chee did an amazing job writing Wynne. The fact that people have been going for 46 pages talking about Wynne is better than people not talking about her at all.

When it comes to fictional characters, you want to evoke emotions from the audience. If people were indifferent towards Wynne, she'd had been a failure as a character. As it is, she was a resounding success.

A success that I love to hate! 


(I realize that I may be using the word hate a bit lightly, but who cares, it's a fictional character)

Sure -  being indifferent to your party members is indicative of poor writing, imo. *cough*Awakening*cough*

Modifié par Reaverwind, 03 septembre 2010 - 09:19 .

[Addai]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

You're talking about the ashes as if it's a given that they're a potent medicine.  No one knows that, not even Wynne.  All you really know is that Teagan and Isolde want them so there you are on the mountaintop.

But supposing that all along Wynne assumes you're on this quest out of Andrastian conviction, does that give her the right to kill you?  I mean, are you trying to argue that Wynne is just psycho?

Why can't Wynn have faith that the Ashes really do exist at this point, considering they've gone through Father Genetivi's research, fought through a great deal of Cultists who believe the Ashes exist, and gone through a magically introspective temple that has the ability to peer into the unspoken places of your mind?

We're talking about faith in their ability to miraculously heal people.  That's why you're saying Wynne's reaction is reasonable- because by destroying the ashes the Warden is dooming sick people to die.  Except there's no way to know that that's the case.  Wynne can believe whatever she wants to about the ashes, it doesn't give her the right to kill you because you don't believe as she does.

As we've said, the deed is already done, the dragon's blood is already in the ashes, so she's not saving anyone by attacking you.

You do understand that the nature of a response is that it occurs after a stimuli, yes? If someone punched you a few times and then walked away and you did nothing even though it had already passed, you are not in the social majority.

Earlier you were arguing that Wynne was trying to prevent the deaths of sick people by attacking you.  Ok, so now you've switched and you're saying that it's ok (reasonable, allowable) to attack you simply because she wigs out.

No it isn't.  You don't work together with someone, fight with them, consider them the hope of humanity, and then turn on a dime and kill them over a religious relic.  You simply don't.  If Wynne felt personally threatened, ok, then I could see her defending herself.  We would then be talking about a normal response for a stable, moral person.  As it is, re the ashes Wynne acts like a nutcase and is better off put down.

Who says you have to like it, or her? But if you intend to hate someone in particular, I at least expect you to be fair about it. So if you're so aghast that someone tries to kill you for something you chose, be aghast at everyone who does that.

I think I'm very fair about it.  I generally don't kill Wynne in the Tower.  I've never defiled the ashes personally, though it's never because I care what an NPC thinks about that question.  But her various hypocrisies and annoying habits all aggregate.  She's the NPC I love to hate.  Wynne haters have a certain comraderie, if you haven't noticed. 

[yesnomaybe]

What annoys me about Wynne is that she seems to make the same responses to about anything you say to her back at camp. I know it's just game mechanics, but it would have been nice to get some acknowledgement that I'm choosing the "right" or "wrong" answers. Instead it just feels like she's not listening to you and just lecturing because she feels that she must.



@Dean_the_Young: When does it say that the ashes were ever used as a curative for anyone besides Arl Eamon? I thought that they eventually became a kind of pilgrimage site for the faithful if you saved them, not actually used for healing. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Sarah1281]

Presumably if the ashes are not destroyed and pilgrims start coming then at some point others will take a pinch. The Guardian openly invites you to just for passing through the gauntlet. Speaking of...isn't that kind of dangerous for normal people? I mean, half of the riddles will produce ash wraiths if answered incorrectly and even if the person sucks at fighting so their shadow image also sucks, there is still no guarentee that they would win the battle. Are people going to die on the pilgrimages? Does the Chantry send Templars through with the pilgrims time and time again to make sure that they can get through and don't die? Is the answer to the bridge map shared or does everyone have to piece it together? Where does the Guardian fit into this?

[CalJones]

He's sat at the ticket booth charging a sovereign a time.

[Zjarcal]

@Sarah:
It's all part of the Guardian's dirty plan as stated by mousestalker on this thread.

In all seriousness though, if the Urn's location is to become indeed a place for pilgrims to visit, I'd assume the Chantry would keep some sort control over who visits. I guess Templars could be ready to help with Wraiths and that sort of thing.

Or they could just say screw it, if you want to be saved by the ashes you'll have to earn it the hard way.

[Sarah1281]

MariSkep wrote...

yesnomaybe wrote...
 Instead it just feels like she's not listening to you and just lecturing because she feels that she must.

She isn't. Like. At all.

Wynne sees you as a child and gives your opinions about the same weight she would an apprentice just arriving at the Tower.

Which is how you'd think apprentices get treated a lot.

Besides, if she really thinks Ferelden's only hope is that much of a child and on par with an apprentice then I don't see why she doesn't just move to Orlais or something. As long as you don't tattle to the Circle that she leaves, it's not like there's anything stopping her and once the fact you're just a child gets Ferelden killed, there won't be any more phylactery to hunt her down with or anyone available to try.

[Giggles_Manically]

Its wierd getting lectured as a DN or HN.



Because honestly you would have been taught all this (hopefully).

I cant see her getting along with Dain 2.0

[LobselVith8]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Although I wouldn't favor culling the Circle (since my Warden is a mage) I can't help but see that Wynne will try to kill you if you simply agree with Morrigan's assessment of the Circle and the Chantry, and she says and does nothing to stop the templars from culling the Circle if you agree with Cullen and say that not one of the mages can be risked because of the blood mage revolt.

As for pouring blood on the Urn, I don't see why Wynne would be surprised considering that the Warden openly states the intent to destroy the ashes to Kolgrim, and the Chantry can use the religious symbol that the ashes of Andraste represent to strengthen their hold on the faithful throughout Thedas, so an elf who is aware of the massacre of the Dales or a mage who has lived through the oppressive system of the templars at the Circle might want to prevent the Chantry from gaining any more power to hurt people.

The first admittedly strikes me as bad handling, though it can be explained as Wynne being convinced by what she's seen in the attempt to rescue the tower and beat the Big Bad. The second, though, is simple: she can assume you're lying to Kogrim, or that you won't go through with it, because it she really doesn't think you'll go that far.

Wynne doesn't see the Chantry as an all-important evil that must be stopped at every turn at all costs. Why their using the Urns to justify their influence would be such a great issue for her is...? She is, after all, a mage who has lived through the oppressive system of the Templars and come out pretty well overall.

Considering Wynne tries to kill the Warden on more than one occassion if she dislikes what he or she does, and tries to recruit her apprentice (who was nearly killed by templars) to go back to the Circle, I'd disagree that she's all right. She's a doormat for Chantry policy. Wynne may not see the Chantry as an evil institution, but a Warden certainly can.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think the Dalish elves, the city elves, and the mages throughout Thedas might argue that their fate hasn't been aided by the existance of the Chantry. The homeland of the Dalish is gone and the mages have been under the heel of drug addicted templars for over hundreds of years. Why should the ashes be spared when someone wanting to prevent further bloodshed as a result of a future Exalted March (like the one the Divine contemplates against Orzammar for harboring free mages) can steam the power that the Chantry holds by destroying the ashes? There's the potential for more lives to be lost than saved because of the Chantry using the ashes for its own gain, since the Chantry locates the ashes regardless of whether Genitivi is alive or not.

Again, this presumes a Elf's view on the importance of the Urn, not Wynne's. Destroying the urn doesn't bring or reverse or rectify any of the Chantry's wrongs: heck, the Urn predates the Chantry. It's as much a historic artifiact of the Tevinters (their conquerer), the Fereldens (thier most favorite daughter), or even the elves (their liberator).

What, pray tell, implies the Chantry needs the Urn to launch another Exalted March? What sort of exalted March does revealing the Urn to the world even cause, that did not have significant Chantry concern already?

I think the importance of a Warden's perspective plays a role in whether or not they would destroy the Urn. Destroying the Urn isn't an evil choice if your Warden sees the Chantry as one of the greatest evils of Thedas. As for Wynne, why should she try to murder your Warden because of an urn, especially given the importance that the Wardens play in stopping the Blight?

I'm trying to state why an Dalish Elf or Mage Warden would pour wyvern blood into the urn. I'm not saying the Chantry would need the Urn for an Exalted March, but considering that they contemplate one against Orzammar because they harbor free mages outside of Chantry oversight, it's clear that the Chantry is the same Chantry that's continued to exploit the mages and destroyed the Dales. There's nothing to stop them from using the religious artifact to help gather support for whatever they want to accomplish. If you don't destroy the Urn, the alternative is Kolgrim and his pro-Mage religious group remains in Haven. 

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

As Duncan tells the Warden, their purpose is to stop the Blight. Their use of a type of blood magic to give recruits the taint is certainly not condoned by the Chantry. I don't see any reason a Warden in DA:O would need to protect the interests of the Chantry, especially a Dalish elf or a Mage Warden.

How does destroying the Urn help stop the Blight? Why does preserving the Urn not help stop the next? What in stopping the Blight necessitates the Grey Wardens striking the greatest blow that would never be known to the Chantry?

I never said destroying the urn stops the Blight, I'm saying that the focus that Alistair and the Warden have, based on their POV of the Grey Wardens as taught to them by their mentor Duncan, is on stopping the Blight, not supporting the Chantry. Considering their treatment of the elves and the mages who sees the Chantry as a tyrannical empire, why shouldn't they feel obliged to destroy the Urn and prevent the Chantry from gaining more unchecked powers? They already control the Circles (and therefore the mages) throughout Thedas.

[CalJones]

All the excitement over Witch Hunt has pushed poor, delightful Wynne back into obscurity.

So I just had to bring her back to post this:

[Zjarcal]

@CalJones:



ROFL!!!!



That is hilarious!

[Bruddajakka]

I like Wynne. Admittedly she can be rather preachy but I think she's doing it more out of habit then anything else. She can be quite fun to banter with during some of her conversations. Sometimes I just really want her to let the hell up though.

[caridounette]

I have to admit i keep her around for the party banters. She and Zevran make the game funny.

[Bruddajakka]

So if you do destroy the Urn before recruiting does she actually have her hissy fit about it leave when you get back to camp?

[Zjarcal]

Bruddajakka wrote...

So if you do destroy the Urn before recruiting does she actually have her hissy fit about it leave when you get back to camp?

I believe I read it in the Wiki that she does. You recruit her and then the minute you return to camp she throws her hissy fit. I'm not sure if it's worded out differently, but I do believe it happens.

[Bruddajakka]

Blah...sometimes I just wish you weren't forced to recruit her.