1396 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

By 'prouder than someone with her skills deserves to be' I just meant that she acts like she is some amazing mage and her skills do not reflect that. Sure she's senior enchanter but she's also really old and what's-her-name in the mage orign just made senior enchanter and she couldn't deal with a few lousy spiders so the title is hardly an indicator of great skill.

And so what that she gets trapped in the Fade? You can use a ritual with the possessed Connor and the demon possessing him doesn't stop it. Besides, as someone mentioned it doesn't have to be the typical possession but rather the strange possession/partnership kind of thing Flemeth has going on.

Edit: And the 'OMG, are Morrigan, Sten, and Loghain possessed, too' question isn't even remotely related. We don't think Wynne's possessed just because she's proud. We think it because she's proud AND admits to having a spirit in her that brought her back to life. If this happened to Morrigan, Sten, or Loghain then maybe they got possessed as well.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 16 décembre 2010 - 02:37 .

[maxernst]

Sarah1281 wrote...

By 'prouder than someone with her skills deserves to be' I just meant that she acts like she is some amazing mage and her skills do not reflect that. 

Morrigan is even less skilled when she joins the party but she's easily as proud as Wynne.  More so, I would say, which is quite odd, given that her only real point of reference for skill and knowledge is Flemeth who far surpasses her.

Sorry, I don't see her as posessed by a pride demon because I just don't think she's unusually proud.  And a demon of pride ought to be abnormally, insanely proud (as Connor is), not just proud in a normal way.  That's why it's relevant that Sten, Loghain and Morrigan aren't posessed by pride demons--that demonstrates that her level of pride is within the normal human range, not megalomaniac.

Modifié par maxernst, 16 décembre 2010 - 02:48 .

[Sabariel]

Wynne had to fight off who-knows-how-many Abominations, save Petra, die, live again, maintain a barrier, and run through the entire Tower with your Warden fighting more baddies, and she's not a young woman. I think she was weakened from all of that (especially the whole dying thing) and that is why she was fooled by the Demon in the Fade.

And before you say, omg! That proves a demon and not a spirit possessed her! I think that once Wynne was back to full strength she would be able to tell that a demon or a spirit was inside her.

Plus, again, the whole thing about her not acting like someone who's been possessed by a demon at all.

Modifié par Sabariel, 16 décembre 2010 - 02:48 .

[Sarah1281]

Plus, again, the whole thing about her not acting like someone who's been possessed by a demon at all.

We have only a handful of examples. Sophia, Amalia, and Connor were all possessed by desire demons and not even trying to hide it. Uldred was also possessed by a pride demon and aside from the whole torturing mages into becoming abominations and his transformation at the end, it really wasn't easy to tell that he'd been possessed. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Uldred did not get possessed DURING the meeting Irving called after Wynne tattled about Loghain. He was possessed beforehand and acting perfectly normal until he didn't think he'd get his way and then he continued with his plan to have a blood mage revolt. Pride demons are higher on the demon hierachy than desire demons. If the one example of a pride demon shows that they CAN act like normal people, why judge all demon possessions like desire demon possessions?

Edit: You guys do realize that the whole Wynne-is-possessed theory isn't even a completely serious one, right? 

Modifié par Sarah1281, 16 décembre 2010 - 02:55 .

[IanPolaris]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Plus, again, the whole thing about her not acting like someone who's been possessed by a demon at all.

We have only a handful of examples. Sophia, Amalia, and Connor were all possessed by desire demons and not even trying to hide it. Uldred was also possessed by a pride demon and aside from the whole torturing mages into becoming abominations and his transformation at the end, it really wasn't easy to tell that he'd been possessed. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Uldred did not get possessed DURING the meeting Irving called after Wynne tattled about Loghain. He was possessed beforehand and acting perfectly normal until he didn't think he'd get his way and then he continued with his plan to have a blood mage revolt. Pride demons are higher on the demon hierachy than desire demons. If the one example of a pride demon shows that they CAN act like normal people, why judge all demon possessions like desire demon possessions?

Edit: You guys do realize that the whole Wynne-is-possessed theory isn't even a completely serious one, right? 

Indeed, we are also told that Pride Demons unlike all other demons are the most "human" and can therefor pass as human far more successfully than any other type of Demon.  Compare Uldred as Ostagar compared with him when you meet him in the tower.  Other than the circumstances and the fact he admits (boasts!) of being an abomination, I am hard pressed to tell the difference.  I think that's typical of Pride Demons who are after all the highest and most powerful in the Demon hierachy.

As for fooling Wynne.  As Morrigan would say, "Childsplay."

Morrigan is not an abomination and she several times shows arcane skill and training especially when dealing with demons and abominations far greater than Wynne does.  Morrigan isn't fooled for a moment when she is trapped in the fade.  Niether for that matter is Niall.  Wynne is and thus shows shocking incompetance for an enchanter of her position....which makes me think she is in fact possessed by a Pride Demon...a very clever Pride Demon.

-Polaris

Edit:  I don't know.  The more I think about it, the more reasonable a hypothesis, "Wynne is possessed" does seem to be.  In fact we know she's possessed....I simply mean by a pride demon.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 16 décembre 2010 - 03:01 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

There is one problem to the Pride demon hypothesis. We know that demons compete with each other over mortals. And we know that Sloth demons are much weaker than Pride Demons.

So why would a Pride Demon let his prized possession be threatened by a sloth demon, when we go to the Fade? Now one also wonders why Wynne's spirit didn't guide Wynne in the Fade, but it might not be powerful enough. A pride demon on the otherhand can backhand slap a sloth demon with ease I expect. So if Wynne is indeed possessed by a Pride Demon, why didn't he interfere in the Fade and protect his "property"?

[Reaverwind]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Edit: You guys do realize that the whole Wynne-is-possessed theory isn't even a completely serious one, right? 

Well, she is possessed by her own admission.  

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

There is one problem to the Pride demon hypothesis. We know that demons compete with each other over mortals. And we know that Sloth demons are much weaker than Pride Demons.
So why would a Pride Demon let his prized possession be threatened by a sloth demon, when we go to the Fade? Now one also wonders why Wynne's spirit didn't guide Wynne in the Fade, but it might not be powerful enough. A pride demon on the otherhand can backhand slap a sloth demon with ease I expect. So if Wynne is indeed possessed by a Pride Demon, why didn't he interfere in the Fade and protect his "property"?

Pride Demons are overall stronger than Sloth Demons.  So are Desire Demons.  Yet this particular Sloth demon had both pride and desire under-demons working for it.

My point is that this particular Sloth Demon seems like an uberpowerful "Boss" sloth demon and Wynne's pride demon might not have been able to protect her.  Please note that this particular Sloth demon was so powerful it could force and trap Dwarves and even Golems (beings with no intrinsic connection with the fade) and trap them within it's own domain.  That's a Sloth Demon on steriods and was far, far more powerful than the desire demon possessing Conner (and she was no slouch).

-Polaris

[Sabariel]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Plus, again, the whole thing about her not acting like someone who's been possessed by a demon at all.

We have only a handful of examples. Sophia, Amalia, and Connor were all possessed by desire demons and not even trying to hide it. Uldred was also possessed by a pride demon and aside from the whole torturing mages into becoming abominations and his transformation at the end, it really wasn't easy to tell that he'd been possessed. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Uldred did not get possessed DURING the meeting Irving called after Wynne tattled about Loghain. He was possessed beforehand and acting perfectly normal until he didn't think he'd get his way and then he continued with his plan to have a blood mage revolt. Pride demons are higher on the demon hierachy than desire demons. If the one example of a pride demon shows that they CAN act like normal people, why judge all demon possessions like desire demon possessions?

Edit: You guys do realize that the whole Wynne-is-possessed theory isn't even a completely serious one, right? 

Uldred still spoke of wanting and longing even though his voice was completely "normal". I've said this all before. Every demon talks of the same thing and every one possessed by a demon (no matter what kind of demon it was) does as well.

[IanPolaris]

Sabariel wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Plus, again, the whole thing about her not acting like someone who's been possessed by a demon at all.

We have only a handful of examples. Sophia, Amalia, and Connor were all possessed by desire demons and not even trying to hide it. Uldred was also possessed by a pride demon and aside from the whole torturing mages into becoming abominations and his transformation at the end, it really wasn't easy to tell that he'd been possessed. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Uldred did not get possessed DURING the meeting Irving called after Wynne tattled about Loghain. He was possessed beforehand and acting perfectly normal until he didn't think he'd get his way and then he continued with his plan to have a blood mage revolt. Pride demons are higher on the demon hierachy than desire demons. If the one example of a pride demon shows that they CAN act like normal people, why judge all demon possessions like desire demon possessions?

Edit: You guys do realize that the whole Wynne-is-possessed theory isn't even a completely serious one, right? 

Uldred still spoke of wanting and longing even though his voice was completely "normal". I've said this all before. Every demon talks of the same thing and every one possessed by a demon (no matter what kind of demon it was) does as well.

Lots of perfectly normal people speak of longing and wanting too.  Are you going to lock away every person with strong wants and desires as an abomination?  Really?  Unless you are willing to say 'yes', then you can not reliably tell an abomination by sight or in conversation .... this is the one thing that Cullen is dead right about.

-Polaris

[Stoomkal]

Wow.

This has devolved from a topic of Wynne-hate into an interesting discussion of possession!

You have been warned...

An interesting thing to consider about demon possession is that initially it is like two beings in one host, but that this does not remain true.

All the long term possessed are actually Demons that *believe* they are/were people... that both personalities have completely assimilated each other.

Many NPCs say things like "There is nothing left of them" when the demon in question, say, Uldred, is talking like they are still a personality in control.

The idea is that the person/soul is completely gone... it is just an echo of the being that is left.

My take on Flemeth is that the actual person vanished long ago, and there is a just a demon left. Another good example would be the Baroness from Awakening.

Demons are so hypnotised by the real world that they assume these personalities more readily as their identity than their own... simply saying "I am a Desire Demon who took so-and-so as a host" is never said... they literally *are* that person.

My final example of a well adjusted Demon goes to DA's odd-couple: Wade and Herren. Heck, Herren seems fine!

[IanPolaris]

Stoomkal,



That's an interesting thought. Perhaps the abominations that spoke in the "reverbo" voices then are those where the Demonic spirit hasn't completely taken over. It's worth noting that Justice in Awakening (a special case if there ever was one) also doesn't sound abnormal (aside from the fact he's literally a walking rotting body) so perhaps there is something to this. I note that in the final confrontation with Uldred in the tower, he says, "Uldred? Uldred is gone."



Of course what this means about Wynne is most disquieting.......



-Polaris

[Reaverwind]

IanPolaris wrote...

Stoomkal,

That's an interesting thought. Perhaps the abominations that spoke in the "reverbo" voices then are those where the Demonic spirit hasn't completely taken over. It's worth noting that Justice in Awakening (a special case if there ever was one) also doesn't sound abnormal (aside from the fact he's literally a walking rotting body) so perhaps there is something to this. I note that in the final confrontation with Uldred in the tower, he says, "Uldred? Uldred is gone."

Of course what this means about Wynne is most disquieting.......

-Polaris

Even more disquieting is Justice's suggestion that demons are spirits that have been corrupted.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Here's a thought. Maybe it's Wynne that corrupted the spirit and turned it into a demon.

[IanPolaris]

Reaverwind wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Stoomkal,

That's an interesting thought. Perhaps the abominations that spoke in the "reverbo" voices then are those where the Demonic spirit hasn't completely taken over. It's worth noting that Justice in Awakening (a special case if there ever was one) also doesn't sound abnormal (aside from the fact he's literally a walking rotting body) so perhaps there is something to this. I note that in the final confrontation with Uldred in the tower, he says, "Uldred? Uldred is gone."

Of course what this means about Wynne is most disquieting.......

-Polaris

Even more disquieting is Justice's suggestion that demons are spirits that have been corrupted.

Yep.  I think we are thinking in tandem on this one.....

-Polaris

[Stoomkal]

IanPolaris wrote...

Stoomkal,

That's an interesting thought. Perhaps the abominations that spoke in the "reverbo" voices then are those where the Demonic spirit hasn't completely taken over. It's worth noting that Justice in Awakening (a special case if there ever was one) also doesn't sound abnormal (aside from the fact he's literally a walking rotting body) so perhaps there is something to this. I note that in the final confrontation with Uldred in the tower, he says, "Uldred? Uldred is gone."

Of course what this means about Wynne is most disquieting.......

-Polaris

hmmmm... very interesting. I don't remember that from Uldred...

Yes... there is certainly some vast differences between the kind of possession that Flemeth and Wynne seem to have, and the kind that Connor or Kitty have.

It is just... that so many demons, like the Baroness, or Uldred, seem like a symbiotic being rather than a singular entity once they cross the Fade.

You mention Justice... he is the only example of a spirit that seems to have a focused identity, rather than a symbiotic relationship. He "is" himself, so to speak.

Of course, I am not sure if all of this was intended in the game to give a perfectly accurate picture of the specifcis of possession... but it is interesting.

Wynne, however, seems more like she has a "spirit rider"... there, but not in control.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Here's a thought. Maybe it's Wynne that corrupted the spirit and turned it into a demon.

You jest, but if you look at what Justice has to say about spirits, it's quite possible IMHO and AFAIK for a lifetime of association to turn a spirit of faith into a demon of pride (or some other type of demon).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Stoomkal wrote...

Wynne, however, seems more like she has a "spirit rider"... there, but not in control.

...or perhaps the being we think of as Wynne is really the spirit/demon personality all along especially if it absorbed Wynne's outlook and personality.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Here's a thought. Maybe it's Wynne that corrupted the spirit and turned it into a demon.

You jest, but if you look at what Justice has to say about spirits, it's quite possible IMHO and AFAIK for a lifetime of association to turn a spirit of faith into a demon of pride (or some other type of demon).

-Polaris

I was half-jesting, I do believe it's possible. 

If the Wynne / Spirit bond is mutual, the spirit can change into something else. We see Justice changing and even somewhat understanding demons (and he could become one).
Wynne's spirit has the added "bonus" of being linked to someone who, let's face it, has a bit too much pride for such a very limited amount of power and wisdom (add hypocrisy in there).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 décembre 2010 - 04:19 .

[Stoomkal]

Yeah... that would have to be one fast acting spirit, though.



I do also like the idea that it is a desire demon that has Wynne convinced of its benevolence.



However, I think it is totally not-in-control.



Personally I think it heard her lectures and comitted a Demo-lobotomy... which is why it cannot be the prominant personality.

[Reaverwind]

Stoomkal wrote...

Yeah... that would have to be one fast acting spirit, though.

I do also like the idea that it is a desire demon that has Wynne convinced of its benevolence.

However, I think it is totally not-in-control.

Personally I think it heard her lectures and comitted a Demo-lobotomy... which is why it cannot be the prominant personality.

ROFL - only the Uldred Abomination can withstand the Wynne sermons! 

[IanPolaris]

Reaverwind wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...

Yeah... that would have to be one fast acting spirit, though.

I do also like the idea that it is a desire demon that has Wynne convinced of its benevolence.

However, I think it is totally not-in-control.

Personally I think it heard her lectures and comitted a Demo-lobotomy... which is why it cannot be the prominant personality.

ROFL - only the Uldred Abomination can withstand the Wynne sermons! 

Ines in Awakenings speculates that Wynne's sermons are why Uldred went off the deep end to begin with.

-Polaris

[maxernst]

IanPolaris wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...

Yeah... that would have to be one fast acting spirit, though.

I do also like the idea that it is a desire demon that has Wynne convinced of its benevolence.

However, I think it is totally not-in-control.

Personally I think it heard her lectures and comitted a Demo-lobotomy... which is why it cannot be the prominant personality.

ROFL - only the Uldred Abomination can withstand the Wynne sermons! 

Ines in Awakenings speculates that Wynne's sermons are why Uldred went off the deep end to begin with.

-Polaris

Niow that's a theory I can credit!

[Sabariel]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Plus, again, the whole thing about her not acting like someone who's been possessed by a demon at all.

We have only a handful of examples. Sophia, Amalia, and Connor were all possessed by desire demons and not even trying to hide it. Uldred was also possessed by a pride demon and aside from the whole torturing mages into becoming abominations and his transformation at the end, it really wasn't easy to tell that he'd been possessed. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Uldred did not get possessed DURING the meeting Irving called after Wynne tattled about Loghain. He was possessed beforehand and acting perfectly normal until he didn't think he'd get his way and then he continued with his plan to have a blood mage revolt. Pride demons are higher on the demon hierachy than desire demons. If the one example of a pride demon shows that they CAN act like normal people, why judge all demon possessions like desire demon possessions?

Edit: You guys do realize that the whole Wynne-is-possessed theory isn't even a completely serious one, right? 

Uldred still spoke of wanting and longing even though his voice was completely "normal". I've said this all before. Every demon talks of the same thing and every one possessed by a demon (no matter what kind of demon it was) does as well.

Lots of perfectly normal people speak of longing and wanting too.  Are you going to lock away every person with strong wants and desires as an abomination?  Really?  Unless you are willing to say 'yes', then you can not reliably tell an abomination by sight or in conversation .... this is the one thing that Cullen is dead right about.

-Polaris

You're being rather ridiculous again. When Uldred was making his speech in the Tower he didn't sound normal to me at all (hence why I have "normal" instead of normal in my original post). Even a powerful person who is possessed seems to devolve when the demon 'comes forward' and their voice changes.

Modifié par Sabariel, 16 décembre 2010 - 04:58 .

[Collider]

How did you feel about Wynne lecturing the player on the Grey Wardens?