1396 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Sabariel wrote...

You're being rather ridiculous again. When Uldred was making his speech in the Tower he didn't sound normal to me at all (hence why I have "normal" instead of normal in my original post). Even a powerful person who is possessed seems to devolve when the demon 'comes forward' and their voice changes.

Hardly.  Uldred sounded like your garden variety Meglomatic Villian with delusions of godhood, but that hardly requires demonic possession.  The ONLY reason you know that Uldred is possessed at this point is because he admits and even boasts about it.  Otherwise, compare the two voices.  They are the same.

-Polaris

[Sabariel]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

You're being rather ridiculous again. When Uldred was making his speech in the Tower he didn't sound normal to me at all (hence why I have "normal" instead of normal in my original post). Even a powerful person who is possessed seems to devolve when the demon 'comes forward' and their voice changes.

Hardly.  Uldred sounded like your garden variety Meglomatic Villian with delusions of godhood, but that hardly requires demonic possession.  The ONLY reason you know that Uldred is possessed at this point is because he admits and even boasts about it.  Otherwise, compare the two voices.  They are the same.

-Polaris

Not to me, he didn't. The ONLY reason I knew he was possessed was because he started talking like every other demon-possessed person in the game.

Modifié par Sabariel, 16 décembre 2010 - 05:18 .

[Reaverwind]

Collider wrote...

How did you feel about Wynne lecturing the player on the Grey Wardens?

Thanks for that link! I think this post sums up my feelings on the Grey Warden sermons rather nicely:

I just recently played through a Wynne conversation and now must rant.

I hated this particular conversation. "Do you know what it means to be a Grey Warden?"

Killing darkspawn, protecting mankind, selfless sacrifice, yada yada. Of course I must pretend I don't know all this, because when I get near Wynne my Warden becomes a brainless retard. The best I can do is click, "It means I've been called upon to do something important." Not too bad.

But no, this does not stop the lecture. She (or should I say, BioWare) proceeds to tell me what I already freaking know, at great length.

And afterward I go, "So you're saying I'm a protector?" W.T.F. Grey Warden = protector. No. Way. I totally did not know that.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 16 décembre 2010 - 05:19 .

[Leonia]

I love being lectured about how to be a Grey Warden.. from someone who is NOT a Grey Warden. I'd love to put Wynne through the Joining and see what happens.

Modifié par leonia42, 16 décembre 2010 - 05:23 .

[IanPolaris]

leonia42 wrote...

I love being lectured about how to be a Grey Warden.. from someone who is NOT a Grey Warden. I'd love to put Wynne through the Joining and see what happens.

She'd never survive it......hmmm....good idea.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Sabariel wrote...
Not to me, he didn't. The ONLY reason I knew he was possessed was because he started talking like every other demon-possessed person in the game.

Bollocks.  He does nothing of the sort.  Kitty and Conner clearly have the double-revbo voices.  So do some of the other weaker abominations.  Not so Flemeth and not so Uldred (nor the Baroness in Awakenings).

-Polaris

[Sarah1281]

Not to me, he didn't. The ONLY reason I knew he was possessed was because he started talking like every other demon-possessed person in the game.

Perhaps you could elaborate? Unlike most other demon possessed people, his voice does not change. You could say his TONE changes, but it is the same person doing the voice. Is it because he 'wants' something? So does Howe and we all know he isn't possessed. So does a lot of people in the game, particularly villains. What is it about Uldred aside from the fact he admits it and is turning people into abominations that sets him apart from all the non-possessed people in the game who want something?

[Reaverwind]

leonia42 wrote...

I love being lectured about how to be a Grey Warden.. from someone who is NOT a Grey Warden. I'd love to put Wynne through the Joining and see what happens.

LOL - too bad the game doesn't let you.

[Sabariel]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Not to me,
he didn't. The ONLY reason I knew he was possessed was because he
started talking like every other demon-possessed person in the game.

Bollocks. 
He does nothing of the sort.  Kitty and Conner clearly have the
double-revbo voices.  So do some of the other weaker abominations.  Not
so Flemeth and not so Uldred (nor the Baroness in Awakenings).



-Polaris

Flemeth isn't an abomination. She's something else entirely. Perhaps she
started out as an abomination, but according to Morrigan she isn't one
currently.



As
for Uldred, he did not talk as a normal person would. Not the sound of
his voice, his... I don't know what you would call them... speech
patterns (?) were off. The moment he opened his mouth my first thought was 'Oops, someone is possessed.'

The actual sound of Amalia's voice doesn't change
much when Kitty possesses her, but  the way she speaks changes
noticeably.

Sarah1281 wrote...

Not to
me, he didn't. The ONLY reason I knew he was possessed was because he
started talking like every other demon-possessed person in the game.

Perhaps you could elaborate? Unlike most other demon possessed people,
his voice does not change. You could say his TONE changes, but it is the
same person doing the voice. Is it because he 'wants' something? So
does Howe and we all know he isn't possessed. So does a lot of people in
the game, particularly villains. What is it about Uldred aside from the
fact he admits it and is turning people into abominations that sets him
apart from all the non-possessed people in the game who want something?

See above. Though apparently I'm the only one who sees a pattern in the way the possessed speak.

Modifié par Sabariel, 16 décembre 2010 - 06:21 .

[yesnomaybe]

Sabariel wrote...

As
for Uldred, he did not talk as a normal person would. Not the sound of
his voice, his... I don't know what you would call them... speech
patterns (?) were off. The moment he opened his mouth my first thought was 'Oops, someone is possessed.'

The actual sound of Amalia's voice doesn't change
much when Kitty possesses her, but  the way she speaks changes
noticeably.

They weren't trying to hide that they were possessed, though. Just because they acted like that doesn't mean it's impossible for them to hide it and talk normally if they wanted to.

[Ryzaki]

@Sabariel : No you're not the only one noticing the pattern I just don't want to debate the topic.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 décembre 2010 - 06:49 .

[Persephone]

Just tossing something out here:

Wynne lost the last thread of my respect for her when she referred to my DE's relationship with Alistair as a "fling". :innocent:

[IanPolaris]

yesnomaybe wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

As
for Uldred, he did not talk as a normal person would. Not the sound of
his voice, his... I don't know what you would call them... speech
patterns (?) were off. The moment he opened his mouth my first thought was 'Oops, someone is possessed.'

The actual sound of Amalia's voice doesn't change
much when Kitty possesses her, but  the way she speaks changes
noticeably.

They weren't trying to hide that they were possessed, though. Just because they acted like that doesn't mean it's impossible for them to hide it and talk normally if they wanted to.

Actually the actual sounds from Ameilia's voice DO change when she is possessed. She has a distinct "reverbo" quality.  Conner has the same.

Uldred does not.  Neither does Flemeth.

The point being is that apparently abominations if they are sufficiently skilled and/or powerful enough can talk like normal people in which case you can't tell just by sight (or sound) who is and is not an abomination.  The Templars certainly would agree with me and whatever you think of the Templars they are the experts in this regard.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Here's the deal.  When you play a tape of Conner's voice, or Kitty's (or Possessed Amelia) without any visual clues, it's clear that the voice is inhuman. 

However, if you just listened to the voice, neither Flemeth NOR ULDRED sound any more possed than Arl Howe.  Vile, Evil, Meglomaniac and self-important yes, but not inhuman.  Uldred in the tower if he wanted to could clearly pass for human (and in fact his voice is exactly the same as in Ostagar when before (presumably) he was possessed).

Modifié par IanPolaris, 16 décembre 2010 - 08:17 .

[Sabariel]

IanPolaris wrote...

yesnomaybe wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

As
for Uldred, he did not talk as a normal person would. Not the sound of
his voice, his... I don't know what you would call them... speech
patterns (?) were off. The moment he opened his mouth my first thought was 'Oops, someone is possessed.'

The actual sound of Amalia's voice doesn't change
much when Kitty possesses her, but  the way she speaks changes
noticeably.

They weren't trying to hide that they were possessed, though. Just because they acted like that doesn't mean it's impossible for them to hide it and talk normally if they wanted to.

Actually the actual sounds from Ameilia's voice DO change when she is possessed. She has a distinct "reverbo" quality.  Conner has the same.

Uldred does not.  Neither does Flemeth.

The point being is that apparently abominations if they are sufficiently skilled and/or powerful enough can talk like normal people in which case you can't tell just by sight (or sound) who is and is not an abomination.  The Templars certainly would agree with me and whatever you think of the Templars they are the experts in this regard.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Here's the deal.  When you play a tape of Conner's voice, or Kitty's (or Possessed Amelia) without any visual clues, it's clear that the voice is inhuman. 

However, if you just listened to the voice, neither Flemeth NOR ULDRED sound any more possed than Arl Howe.  Vile, Evil, Meglomaniac and self-important yes, but not inhuman.  Uldred in the tower if he wanted to could clearly pass for human (and in fact his voice is exactly the same as in Ostagar when before (presumably) he was possessed).

Where did I say that Amalia's voice doesn't change? I said it doesn't change much. The way she speaks changes much more than how the sound of her voice changes.

Again, Flemeth? Not an abomination. Unless of course you think Morrigan doesn't know squat about Flemeth.

And once more, Uldred may have sounded "normal" and "human" to you, but to me he did not.

I see a sign at the end of this road. The sign says: "Dead End". So I think our conversation will end here, Mr. Polaris.

[IanPolaris]

Sabariel wrote...
Where did I say that Amalia's voice doesn't change? I said it doesn't change much. The way she speaks changes much more than how the sound of her voice changes.

Her voices changes quite a lot actually and in much the same way (except in reverse) that Conner's voice changes when you drive the demon out. 

Again, Flemeth? Not an abomination. Unless of course you think Morrigan doesn't know squat about Flemeth.

Really?  Morrigan at least in DAO and DAA consistantly says her mother is an abomination and certainly all the legends say so.   However, if the original Flemeth was destroyed and only the demon remained would that still be an "abomination" or something else.  The point being, however, that Flemeth by ALL accounts (including Morrigan's) is the result of a demon taking up residence in a human body and that (at least initially) makes Flemeth an abomination (as it does with Wynne).

And once more, Uldred may have sounded "normal" and "human" to you, but to me he did not.

When everyone but you (ok one other person but it's a party of two) senses something one way and you sense it the other, chances are you're the one that isn't sensing it correctly.  Enough said.

I see a sign at the end of this road. The sign says: "Dead End". So I think our conversation will end here, Mr. Polaris.

I agree.   There is nothing we can say that will change your mind about Wynne and none of your arguments are compelling.  There is no point in continuing.

-Polaris

[Stoomkal]

Well... the voice change is a fact.



But everything else is definitely in dispute.



I think Flemeth is the best "unknown" here. She may well be an abomination, but I think she has become somthing far more interesting.



We really cannot say...yet.

[IanPolaris]

Stoomkal wrote...

Well... the voice change is a fact.

Which one?  Amalie's?  Conner's (definately)

Uldred?  I've compared his Ostagar and Circle voice over and over again, and I'd have to say definately not.  Nor (for that matter) did the Baroness in Awakening have the "reverbo" voice either.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Sabariel wrote...

Wynne had to fight off who-knows-how-many Abominations, save Petra, die, live again, maintain a barrier, and run through the entire Tower with your Warden fighting more baddies, and she's not a young woman. I think she was weakened from all of that (especially the whole dying thing) and that is why she was fooled by the Demon in the Fade.

And before you say, omg! That proves a demon and not a spirit possessed her! I think that once Wynne was back to full strength she would be able to tell that a demon or a spirit was inside her.

Plus, again, the whole thing about her not acting like someone who's been possessed by a demon at all.

If all this is true, then she has no business accompanying you when you cleanse the tower much less (effectively) forcing you to take her....any more than an injured football player has any business on the field.  Again it's a sign of misplaced pride if what you say is so.

-Polaris

[Sabariel]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Wynne had to fight off who-knows-how-many Abominations, save Petra, die, live again, maintain a barrier, and run through the entire Tower with your Warden fighting more baddies, and she's not a young woman. I think she was weakened from all of that (especially the whole dying thing) and that is why she was fooled by the Demon in the Fade.

And before you say, omg! That proves a demon and not a spirit possessed her! I think that once Wynne was back to full strength she would be able to tell that a demon or a spirit was inside her.

Plus, again, the whole thing about her not acting like someone who's been possessed by a demon at all.

If all this is true, then she has no business accompanying you when you cleanse the tower much less (effectively) forcing you to take her....any more than an injured football player has any business on the field.  Again it's a sign of misplaced pride if what you say is so.

-Polaris

I very much doubt pride motivated Wynne to accompany the Warden. But, again, "Dead End".

[IanPolaris]

Sabariel wrote...
I very much doubt pride motivated Wynne to accompany the Warden. But, again, "Dead End".

Why not?  More than any other kind of demon, pride demons are very much individuals.  I can think of many good reasons why a pride demon would want to accompany the Warden.

1.  Get out of the tower.  This dovetails with Wynne's own desires, but a pride demon would not be comfortable surrounded by alert and suspicious templars that are actively hunting for abominations.  Sure the pride demon may think it can fool them, but is that really a risk worth taking?  I think that 4 out of 5 pride demons would say, no.

2.  See the world.  More than anything, demons are unified in their desire to experience life and see the world as a mortal and through that mortal experience the emotion that makes them what they are.  In fact as another poster already mentioned,pride demons more than any other really seem to take on the characteristics of their human host.

3.  Influence.   Other than sitting on the throne yourself, what better place to be for a pride demon than whispering trusted advice to the most powerful being in this part of Thedas.  The Pride Demon after seeing the warden in action would know perfectly well that the Warden is going to have a major impact on Ferelden and reflected glory is not a bad thing at all (especially if this particular pride demon is aware that a pride demon is lurking for the Mage Warden).

3.a.  That last point also gives a good indication why a possessed Wynne forces the bloodmage confrontation.  Unlike other Wardens and even other Mage Warden, the Bloodmage Warden's power and influence and undeniable strength in the Fade is probably too close of a threat to ignore.  A bloodmage Warden (especially if the demon knows another Pride Demon is just waiting to turn him or her into the Pride Abomination from hell) is the one thing that can fight and destroy the Demon on it's own terms.  In that case, I can see the Pride demon essentially chucking Wynne's life away on a gamble.  If Wynne wins, a major threat to the demon's existance is gone.  If Wynne loses, then at least those pesky Templars are destroyed.  Wynne, Wynne for the demon.

I can think of others, but I find it very reasonable and even likely that a very clever pride demon would not only want but be eager to help, advise and accompany the warden....as long as he's not a bloodmage warden (again because a bloodmage warden of that power is too big a threat to play games with).

-Polaris

[yesnomaybe]

IanPolaris wrote...

yesnomaybe wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

As
for Uldred, he did not talk as a normal person would. Not the sound of
his voice, his... I don't know what you would call them... speech
patterns (?) were off. The moment he opened his mouth my first thought was 'Oops, someone is possessed.'

The actual sound of Amalia's voice doesn't change
much when Kitty possesses her, but  the way she speaks changes
noticeably.

They weren't trying to hide that they were possessed, though. Just because they acted like that doesn't mean it's impossible for them to hide it and talk normally if they wanted to.

Actually the actual sounds from Ameilia's voice DO change when she is possessed. She has a distinct "reverbo" quality.  Conner has the same.

Uldred does not.  Neither does Flemeth.

The point being is that apparently abominations if they are sufficiently skilled and/or powerful enough can talk like normal people in which case you can't tell just by sight (or sound) who is and is not an abomination.  The Templars certainly would agree with me and whatever you think of the Templars they are the experts in this regard.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Here's the deal.  When you play a tape of Conner's voice, or Kitty's (or Possessed Amelia) without any visual clues, it's clear that the voice is inhuman. 

However, if you just listened to the voice, neither Flemeth NOR ULDRED sound any more possed than Arl Howe.  Vile, Evil, Meglomaniac and self-important yes, but not inhuman.  Uldred in the tower if he wanted to could clearly pass for human (and in fact his voice is exactly the same as in Ostagar when before (presumably) he was possessed).

I didn't say Conner's or Amalia's voices didn't change, just that they might be able talk normally for a human if they wanted to, though they don't in the game, you're right. It's not like they're really trying to blend in when the warden's around, since Conner's demon doesn't even try to be subtle and Kitty is trying to strike a bargain where you free her, which means you know she's a demon. 

Modifié par yesnomaybe, 16 décembre 2010 - 05:17 .

[Addai]

Responding to Glaucon's question over in the "Full of Win" thread:

I make no assumptions, I'm merely enquiring as to the breakdown of player characters that dislike Wynne.  I'm simply trying to understand why people dislike her and trying to discern if it is due to the alignment of PCs/NPCs. 

I play all generally good/ noble Wardens, but being that they are shaped by the experience of being pushed up against a wall and fighting impossible odds, they also have a pragmatic streak.  I'm not really familiar with the old alignment system, but I'd guess it's somewhere between Chaotic Good and Neutral.

The problem with assuming that Wynne is a "good" character is that it carries over the assumption that what the Chantry says is good and going against the Chantry is evil.  While Wynne sometimes talks like she is against Chantry doctrine, I see her as generally a brainwashed Chantry tool, too stubborn to see past the POV she's been indoctrinated with.  Whatever the Circle (i.e. the Chantry) says goes.  So, in defling the ashes, you're preventing further killing, but because it's a blood ritual in an Andrastian site, to Wynne it's an unmitigated evil.  If you're a blood mage, that's baaaad even if you use blood magic against darkspawn and the abominations that were threatening her own existence.

Personally I find that those self-righteous, avenging angel, idealistic types can end up being more evil in practice than someone who's not as bought into a doctrine and operates more in grey.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glaucon wrote...
I make no assumptions, I'm merely enquiring as to the breakdown of player characters that dislike Wynne.  I'm simply trying to understand why people dislike her and trying to discern if it is due to the alignment of PCs/NPCs. 

While I am pretty sure some if not many would qualify me as "evil" / something in the D&D alignement, I consider myself pure neutral if I am ever to indulge in that very limited categorization.

I personally do not dislike Wynne as a person. I am mostly indifferent despite her many flaws that can tick me off. I feel she has nothing to offer.  I end up being nice to her, but that's because I am polite with everyone.
The fact that I am indifferent to her however, makes me dislike the character. My experience in the game is virtually unchanged whether she is a companion or not.

A character that is loved or hated / disliked, for me, is a well written and / or interesting character. The fact that I am indifferent to Wynne makes her neither imo.  The only thing interesting about her is the spirit and we don't get to learn that much of it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 décembre 2010 - 05:52 .

[Ryzaki]

Ah see I think that's where we differ KoP. If I dislike a character it's because I find him/her annoying (for a multitude) of reasons. If I'm indifferent to someone (like Sten) I don't hate them but I don't overly like their character either.



That said I have a grandmother who reminds me of her (plenty of useless advice with a few rare gems to be had, self-righteous and really irritating most of the time) so I guess I've developed an immunity to her annoyance.