1396 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah see I think that's where we differ KoP. If I dislike a character it's because I find him/her annoying (for a multitude) of reasons. If I'm indifferent to someone (like Sten) I don't hate them but I don't overly like their character either. 

I just said I don't hate her or her character. But if I am to judge her as a companion (and not strictly as a person), she'd rank as my least favorite because I am indifferent to her as a person. As in I feel she offers me nothing at all, and whatever she might offer other companions do twice as well. 

Personality wise I am indifferent to her.

EDIT: and I just took the D&D alignment test. Apparently I am Lawful Neutral.
Not entirely innaccurate, but mostly so.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 décembre 2010 - 06:09 .

[Reaverwind]

Addai67 wrote...

Responding to Glaucon's question over in the "Full of Win" thread:

I make no assumptions, I'm merely enquiring as to the breakdown of player characters that dislike Wynne.  I'm simply trying to understand why people dislike her and trying to discern if it is due to the alignment of PCs/NPCs. 

I play all generally good/ noble Wardens, but being that they are shaped by the experience of being pushed up against a wall and fighting impossible odds, they also have a pragmatic streak.  I'm not really familiar with the old alignment system, but I'd guess it's somewhere between Chaotic Good and Neutral.

I also tend to play "good" Wardens, but they can't be pigeon-holed into the oversimplified D&D alignment system.

My main dislike for Wynne stems from the Warden being forced into the role of a "brainless retard" when speaking with her, as one poster succintly put it.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 16 décembre 2010 - 06:19 .

[Addai]

Glaucon wrote...
If personalities, as implemented, operate in a likewise fashion to D&D alignments --in that conflicting personalities and actions by personalities lead to friction-- then it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to see these personalities translated into the game.  So, an action initiated by an 'evil' PC, in the presence of a 'good' NPC should have some consequences on that relationship.  I believe that I see that occurring in DA:O.

I'm not really sure I understand your point.  Perhaps there's some confusion in that I don't see many choices in the game that can be defined as "evil."  Most of them can be reasonably justified one way or another.

The way I see the characters set up in DAO, they respond positively to those things that tie in with their personal biases and the causes they like to champion.  Wynne likes anything you do that supports the Circle.  She dislikes anything that puts mages outside Circle control.  She likes anything that bolsters her belief that she's everyone's mentor.  She dislikes anything that challenges the assumption that she's there to guide you.

[Ryzaki]

Reaverwind wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Responding to Glaucon's question over in the "Full of Win" thread:

I make no assumptions, I'm merely enquiring as to the breakdown of player characters that dislike Wynne.  I'm simply trying to understand why people dislike her and trying to discern if it is due to the alignment of PCs/NPCs. 

I play all generally good/ noble Wardens, but being that they are shaped by the experience of being pushed up against a wall and fighting impossible odds, they also have a pragmatic streak.  I'm not really familiar with the old alignment system, but I'd guess it's somewhere between Chaotic Good and Neutral.

I also tend to play "good" Wardens, but they can't be pigeon-holed into the oversimplified D&D alignment system.

My main dislike for Wynne stems from the Warden being forced into the role of a "brainless retard" when speaking with her, as one poster succintly put it.

This is pretty much the same problem I have with Morrigan.

[yesnomaybe]

Reaverwind wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Responding to Glaucon's question over in the "Full of Win" thread:

I make no assumptions, I'm merely enquiring as to the breakdown of player characters that dislike Wynne.  I'm simply trying to understand why people dislike her and trying to discern if it is due to the alignment of PCs/NPCs. 

I play all generally good/ noble Wardens, but being that they are shaped by the experience of being pushed up against a wall and fighting impossible odds, they also have a pragmatic streak.  I'm not really familiar with the old alignment system, but I'd guess it's somewhere between Chaotic Good and Neutral.

I also tend to play "good" Wardens, but they can't be pigeon-holed into the oversimplified D&D alignment system.

My main dislike for Wynne stems from the Warden being forced into the role of a "brainless retard" when speaking with her, as one poster succintly put it.

I actually disliked Wynne MORE when playing as a good character. I at least understand why she lectures you like a little child when you act selfishly, but when you play as an upstanding and moral person in her own definition of the term (as in what gets her highest approval), she still has lots of wisdom to bestow. When she tells my character how a grey warden needs to protect people, when he or she has been doing at every opportunity so far, I kind of want to be able to shout, "I know! I've been doing that! Haven't you been paying attention?" 

She also talks to you like she's warning a child not to misbehave both when Caladrius offers a deal to take the slaves and leave and to boost your health with blood magic, even though my character hasn't said yes, or even considered it. I'd understand if she got mad AFTER you say yes, but beforehand it just irks me to no end, especially if I have +100 approval with her and she should know my character better by now.

[yesnomaybe]

Ryzaki wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Responding to Glaucon's question over in the "Full of Win" thread:

I make no assumptions, I'm merely enquiring as to the breakdown of player characters that dislike Wynne.  I'm simply trying to understand why people dislike her and trying to discern if it is due to the alignment of PCs/NPCs. 

I play all generally good/ noble Wardens, but being that they are shaped by the experience of being pushed up against a wall and fighting impossible odds, they also have a pragmatic streak.  I'm not really familiar with the old alignment system, but I'd guess it's somewhere between Chaotic Good and Neutral.

I also tend to play "good" Wardens, but they can't be pigeon-holed into the oversimplified D&D alignment system.

My main dislike for Wynne stems from the Warden being forced into the role of a "brainless retard" when speaking with her, as one poster succintly put it.

This is pretty much the same problem I have with Morrigan.

That's the problem with almost every companion you talk about any kind of philosophy with. Zevran and Sten are the same. Leliana is the only one you can say something somewhat intelligent to when talking about the Maker. 

Modifié par yesnomaybe, 16 décembre 2010 - 06:55 .

[Ryzaki]

yesnomaybe wrote...

That's the problem with almost every companion you talk about any kind of philosophy with. Zevran and Sten are the same. Leliana is the only one you can say something somewhat intelligent to when talking about the Maker. 

You know now that I think about it it's very true. You odd nod yes or the time completely disagree but give no clarification or you act like naive child.

What is with that?

[Addai]

Glaucon wrote...
I would agree that choices can be reasonably justified with respect to their character.  But I think that in a successful implementation of personalities (which I believe DA:O to be) 'choice' is a many to many relationship.  To that end, if DA:O's implementation of characters and their personalities/alignments are indeed of the successful variety then it should impact on how --some unknown percentage of players-- perceive the characters.  

I don't think that I'm saying anything unusual when suggesting that the implementation of characters impacts on those characters popularity. 

So you're looking for what type of player and/or what type of PC is a Wynne-hater?  Not sure you can judge that.  For one thing, I know I'm not alone in saying I liked Wynne and used her a lot on my first playthrough or two, but one day I just thought "you know what, you suck."  Same thing with Leliana.

[CalJones]

In Wynne's case, familiarity breeds contempt. I don't think it's uncommon to like her initially and then slowly grow to dislike her. Some people have personality traits or habits that are OK in small doses, but if you're exposed to them a lot, they become insufferable. Wynne is one of those people.

[ejoslin]

Hmmmm, well, you won't get what you're looking for -- the best you'll get here is anecdotal.



I think I would generally be considered a true neutral character (at least, that's what all the on-line what-is-your-alignment things tell me).



Wynne bothers me for a few reasons. I don't mind receiving advice, even if I don't agree with it, if it is actually well reasoned. I do not like being proselytized, however; Wynne has been indoctrinated from a very young age and only sees her truth as The One True Answer.



She also makes assumptions about the warden that are completely unfair; they are not based on either the actions of the warden nor the situation at hand.



she does not take into what the warden has accomplished or has been taught. I think, personally, there should have been more dialog choices for Nobles in Wynne's lecture on kings and responsibility. How on earth would Wynne, a circle mage, think to lecture a dwarf noble, who was raised as royalty. What type of nerve does it take to tell someone in a caring close relationship that they're too much of a child for an intimate relationship and they're sadly mistaken if they think their fling will last.



Wynne can be downright nasty if you don't just give her the smile nod. But I don't like people in general whom I have to give the smile nod. I like being able to disagree with someone and have it not be a mortal insult.



There is much Wynne could learn from the people around her. but instead, she doesn't realize the value of other people's life experiences and still figures her way is the only right way.



Ah well.

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

yesnomaybe wrote...

That's the problem with almost every companion you talk about any kind of philosophy with. Zevran and Sten are the same. Leliana is the only one you can say something somewhat intelligent to when talking about the Maker. 

You know now that I think about it it's very true. You odd nod yes or the time completely disagree but give no clarification or you act like naive child.

What is with that?

It's probably easier than trying to anticipate every problem one might have with Wynne or other companion's philosphies. But I do SO wish that you could tell Wynne, when you're asking her to butt out, that she's not a GW so she shouldn't presume to act like she knows better than you on that particular matter.

[Reaverwind]

CalJones wrote...

In Wynne's case, familiarity breeds contempt. I don't think it's uncommon to like her initially and then slowly grow to dislike her. Some people have personality traits or habits that are OK in small doses, but if you're exposed to them a lot, they become insufferable. Wynne is one of those people.

Or not so slowly come to dislike her. The second playthrough I had her along, which was with my mage Warden, it didn't take long for me to notice her famed Wynpocrisy, and her sermons already were grating. The other characters have their flaws, but while I find Morrigan to be a ****, she remains consistent and doesn't lecture the way Wynne does. Furthermore, she comes with the virtue of not being forced into your party for most of a questline and can be told to take a hike, which, unfortunately can't be said of Wynne.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 16 décembre 2010 - 08:37 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Personality wise I am indifferent to her.

EDIT: and I just took the D&D alignment test. Apparently I am Lawful Neutral.
Not entirely innaccurate, but mostly so.

I would have guessed you as such, though sliding towards either True neutral or Lawful Evil (The most difficult alignment, bar none, to role-play).

Naturally, I am your polar opposite.
easydamus.com/chaoticneutral.html 

Modifié par Skadi_the_Evil_Elf, 16 décembre 2010 - 08:44 .

[Sarah1281]

I was initially surprised to find myself True Neutral but looking back on it...

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I was initially surprised to find myself True Neutral but looking back on it...

Doesn't surprise me at all, really, given your fondness for playing devil's advocate and arguing from almost every point of view.

The D&D alignment system, while limited, is actually a pretty fun exercise into the philisophical nature of morality and ethics.

[Avilia]

@Glaucon - if it helps your study of Wynne's supporters/non supporters. My canon choices are:

Help in Lothering
Recruit Leliana
Recruit Sten
Betray Kitty/recruit Shale
Annul the Circle
Crown Bhelen/destroy Anvil
Kill Avernus and Sophia
Cure the werewolves
Kill Connor
No defiling of ashes/no killing of high dragon
Alistair rules/marries Anora
Recruit Loghain/allow Loghain to kill the Archdemon

That's probably enough detail. In my canon run I kept Morrigan in group and killed Wynne at the first meeting on entering the tower. She took exception to Morrigan's being an apostate. Morrigan then travelled back to camp and was replaced by Shale.

I am not a supporter of Wynne. I've come to the conclusion after reading this and other threads that she is written the way she is deliberately, and that the player is prevented from properly discussing her opinions with her with the intent of driving some of us mad with frustration. At least that's what I tell myself ;-)

(Chaotic neutral btw - yay!)

Modifié par Avilia, 16 décembre 2010 - 09:11 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Personality wise I am indifferent to her.

EDIT: and I just took the D&D alignment test. Apparently I am Lawful Neutral.
Not entirely innaccurate, but mostly so.

I would have guessed you as such, though sliding towards either True neutral or Lawful Evil (The most difficult alignment, bar none, to role-play).

Naturally, I am your polar opposite.
easydamus.com/chaoticneutral.html 

I think a slightly more complex analysis would be:
Me in a position of political power: Lawful neutral.
Me if I am trying to get political power: lawful evil
Me at my core: True neutral

[Sarah1281]

I'm be more inclined towards Lawful Neutral if it weren't for the plethora of stupid laws I'm aware of.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah see I think that's where we differ KoP. If I dislike a character it's because I find him/her annoying (for a multitude) of reasons. If I'm indifferent to someone (like Sten) I don't hate them but I don't overly like their character either. 

I just said I don't hate her or her character. But if I am to judge her as a companion (and not strictly as a person), she'd rank as my least favorite because I am indifferent to her as a person. As in I feel she offers me nothing at all, and whatever she might offer other companions do twice as well. 

Personality wise I am indifferent to her.

EDIT: and I just took the D&D alignment test. Apparently I am Lawful Neutral.
Not entirely innaccurate, but mostly so.

I didn't say you hated her.

But I could've sworn I saw the word dislike in your post.

According to D&D I'm Chaotic Neutral.
"Might save your life, might steal your car." 

Whole thing: 

Chaotic Neutral- A chaotic neutral character follows his whims.
He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but
doesn't strive to protect others' freedom. He avoids authority, resents
restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character
does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of
anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a
desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those different
from himself suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable,
but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off
a bridge as to cross it. Chaotic neutral is the best alignment you can
be because it represents true freedom from both society's restrictions
and a do-gooder's zeal. However, chaotic neutral can be a dangerous
alignment because it seeks to eliminate all authority, harmony, and
order in society.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 décembre 2010 - 09:48 .