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[CosmicGnosis]

The weird Justinia spirit in the Fade implies a lot of crazy things. Her dialogue suggests that she is a spirit, but a spirit that may be unlike anything we have yet encountered. If you focus only on the revelations of Here Lies the Abyss, I think it's easy to conclude that "Andraste", or any other kind of divine intervention, was not at all involved in the events of the Inquisitor gaining the Anchor.

 

But the story's opening implies otherwise. Did you ever notice that the opening sequence completely contradicts the memories in Here Lies the Abyss? Justinia looks totally normal in those memories, and there is no emphasis placed on the Anchor. The Wiki describes it rather well:

 

 

It is useful to, soon after this quest completes, to create a new character of any type and re-watch the introductory videos as they give a somewhat different version of the events in the Fade. In the Here Lies The Abyss version, the Inquisitor is chased up the stairs by the spiders, looks back to the physical version of Justinia, reaches out to her, Justinia falls back and the Inquisitor goes forward into the veil tear. In the opening sequence, when the Inquisitor runs up the stairs, the white ghost version of Justinia is ahead and above the Inquisitor, Justinia reaches out to the Inquisitor, the anchor flashes and the screen does a white-out. The positions of the two characters are reversed between the two depictions of the same event and the ending is different.

 

 

This is very intriguing. Some have argued that the memories in Here Lies the Abyss are more likely to be the legitimate ones, but I'm not too sure about that. I think it's obvious now that BioWare deliberately muddled this event because the answers should be ambiguous. And the real kicker here is that the Anchor glows when the Inquisitor touches the spirit's hand during the opening. The focus on the Anchor suggests to me that some very strange things are happening, and the fact that this detail is missing in the Here Lies the Abyss memories makes me suspicious. 

 

And then there is this bizarre moment when the spirit attacks Nightmare:

 

https://youtu.be/4ppky9no5J4?t=20s

 

What is going on? Why is the Inquisitor freaking out? Why is no one else reacting in the same way? What is happening?

 

Both myself and my Inquisitor have come to some rather unnerving conclusions. We don't believe that he is the "Herald of Andraste", but we suspect that some powerful beings have manipulated events to bring us to this point. Even Corypheus doesn't understand how the Inquisitor survived the explosion. Could it all be dumb luck? Maybe, but the different presentations of the Fade sequence, along with the weird vibes coming from the Justinia spirit, imply that something far stranger is going on. The Inquisitor might be a "chosen one" after all, but not in the way that Andrastians would expect. Even if Andraste herself is responsible, it's likely that she isn't exactly the entity that mainstream Andrastianism believes her to be.

[In Exile]

Remember what Solas said about the Fade, and what you see when you gaze at history through it. You saw a version of history... but that's just what you see through the eyes of the Fade. 

[CosmicGnosis]

I also wonder about the spirit's concern for Leliana. Does this have any connection to Leliana's belief that the Maker spoke to her directly, which is actually a blasphemous claim? And what does all of this mean if Leliana becomes the Divine?

[andy6915]

My qunari was absolutely against the idea of being chosen or saved, while my human is agnostic and claims to not have been saved by Andraste and doesn't claim to be holy but doesn't rule out that some kind of greater power could have been involved... But she's pretty sure it wasn't any Maker or Andraste.

Anyway, there is a contradiction here. You're right that some kind of powerful being could have been involved, especially with whatever that Justinia looking thing was.

[In Exile]

I also wonder about the spirit's concern for Leliana. Does this have any connection to Leliana's belief that the Maker spoke to her directly, which is actually a blasphemous claim? And what does all of this mean if Leliana becomes the Divine?

 

Bioware's retconned that so hardcore that at this point that we pretty much have to accept this part of DA:O is now no longer part of the canon. 

[blahblahblah]

Bioware's retconned that so hardcore that at this point that we pretty much have to accept this part of DA:O is now no longer part of the canon. 

Everything happened in DAO epilogue is no longer a canon since DAA.

[In Exile]

Everything happened in DAO epilogue is no longer a canon since DAA.

 

Sure, but I specifically meant that the theology that the Maker isn't an active god is just wholesale abandoned by DA:I. 

[SwobyJ]

I like thinking that the original person of the Inquisitor 'died' in the Fade and something emerged from that. Our Herald.

 

We are playing a spirit. Etched out of the chaos, formed from creation, a greater order is appearing. Call it the Maker.

[Daerog]

Fade, spirits, timey whimey stuff, and nugs. I like to imagine my Inquisitor was a bit confused, shrugged it off and said "doesn't matter, I'm here and have a job to do, so I'll just carry on," and it didn't impact his faith at all, he was still all pro-Chantry Loyalist and all.

 

However, In Exile brings up something that has been bugging me as well. What's with the theology in this game? It is confusing, because Origins has the Maker just being an observer who plucks up the faithful departed and now we have people in Inquisition praying to the Maker for interventions.... what? Did they miss the part at chantry school where the Maker won't help out and turned away until the Chant is everywhere? I can understand if they pray to Andraste, or maybe even if the Maker sends Andraste or other Anointed people to help, but it isn't spelled out which is the case.

 

Are they softening up the second abandoning thing? Are they changing it to, "well, the Maker nudges here and there, but isn't really intervening or setting up prophets, that's still Andraste's territory, like with Drakon"?

[andy6915]

Fade, spirits, timey whimey stuff, and nugs. I like to imagine my Inquisitor was a bit confused, shrugged it off and said "doesn't matter, I'm here and have a job to do, so I'll just carry on," and it didn't impact his faith at all, he was still all pro-Chantry Loyalist and all.

 

However, In Exile brings up something that has been bugging me as well. What's with the theology in this game? It is confusing, because Origins has the Maker just being an observer who plucks up the faithful departed and now we have people in Inquisition praying to the Maker for interventions.... what? Did they miss the part at chantry school where the Maker won't help out and turned away until the Chant is everywhere? I can understand if they pray to Andraste, or maybe even if the Maker sends Andraste or other Anointed people to help, but it isn't spelled out which is the case.

 

Are they softening up the second abandoning thing? Are they changing it to, "well, the Maker nudges here and there, but isn't really intervening or setting up prophets, that's still Andraste's territory, like with Drakon"?

 

More like "the world ending tends to cause people to start grasping at anything that gives them hope". People don't want to believe that the Maker will just stand by as a breach in veil kills everyone, even if that technically contradicts Chantry teachings.

[midnight tea]

But the story's opening implies otherwise. Did you ever notice that the opening sequence completely contradicts the memories in Here Lies the Abyss? Justinia looks totally normal in those memories, and there is no emphasis placed on the Anchor. The Wiki describes it rather well:

 

It is useful to, soon after this quest completes, to create a new character of any type and re-watch the introductory videos as they give a somewhat different version of the events in the Fade. In the Here Lies The Abyss version, the Inquisitor is chased up the stairs by the spiders, looks back to the physical version of Justinia, reaches out to her, Justinia falls back and the Inquisitor goes forward into the veil tear. In the opening sequence, when the Inquisitor runs up the stairs, the white ghost version of Justinia is ahead and above the Inquisitor, Justinia reaches out to the Inquisitor, the anchor flashes and the screen does a white-out. The positions of the two characters are reversed between the two depictions of the same event and the ending is different.

 

Eeeh... while I agree that there are questions about some differences between the opening and memories of Inquisitor, I'd say that this part of wiki is quite problematic, when it comes to its claims.

 

The opening scene simply ends earlier than regained IQ memories in the Fade - before the white-out no position is reverted and everything that happened after the white-out (the exact moment of getting out of the Fade and Justinia being torn away by demons) is part of wiped memory.

[CosmicGnosis]

Eeeh... while I agree that there are questions about some differences between the opening and memories of Inquisitor, I'd say that this part of wiki is quite problematic, when it comes to its claims.

 

The opening scene simply ends earlier than regained IQ memories in the Fade - before the white-out no position is reverted and everything that happened after the white-out (the exact moment of getting out of the Fade and Justinia being torn away by demons) is part of wiped memory.

Yes, but it's curious that the opening shows the spirit, rather than Justinia herself. This is a significant difference. And again, the Anchor is ignored in the Here Lies the Abyss memories.

[myahele]

Now that we know what spirits are capable of doing, then I guess it's safe to assume that most miracles that we see are due to the interference of Spirits?

 

The voice that spoke to Leliana and probably healed her when the Warden "killed" her was probably a Spirit. We know that if you exhibit lot of ___ traits then a Spirit of that same trait will take interest on that person and help them when needed or capable.

 

Cole is a nice indicator in how some Spirits will help people.Cole's methodology is to go to the person that needs help and then helps them depending on what they need and then lets them forget.

 

....we're learning so much about Spirts, especially in JoH. I do think that Justinia Spirit may very well have been the same spirit that "spoke" to Leliana and who lead Justinia to free her and eventually latched on to Leliana symbol of Faith: Justinia. Including getting memories of the dead, it could very well be possible that the spirit may have felt that s/he failed Leliana

 

Just like The Nightmare latched on the fear of the Blight in order to get stronger and stronger ..... I am sure a spirit latched on the faith of The Maker to get stronger and stronger somewhere deep in the Fade.

[midnight tea]

Yes, but it's curious that the opening shows the spirit, rather than Justinia herself. This is a significant difference. And again, the Anchor is ignored in the Here Lies the Abyss memories.

 

Considering that Inquisitor's memories were twisted and fragmented, I'd say that it could be either just a matter of Inquisitor's memory "filling in the blanks" or something genuinely mysterious happened there.

 

Anyway, the anchor is ignored I think predominantly because the scene in which Justinia (I'm talking about IQ memories here) reaching down for Inquisitor is cut earlier - we just don't see the moment in which IQ reaches towards the Divine and is about to grab her hand.

 

Anyhoo, I don't have a horse in this race - it could be either of them or it could even be some strange mix of both. 

 

 

 

Cole is a nice indicator in how some Spirits will help people. 

 

Well Cole actually makes comments (after Adamant, if he was in the Fade) that indicate that he and the spirit f Divine may be similar, in some way at least. Though that may not say much, as both spirit of Justinia and Cole are both relatively rare and powerful spirits.

[zambingo]

I like the idea that many different things can be true at the same time and demands that these things are mutually exclusive are fabricated by mortals limited perhaps even linear perspectives. Which fits with the concept Solas presents.

eg. In the Fade the Quizzy saves themselves, helps Justina and is also saved. Action and aid all occur, the flipping of the positions of the Quizzy and Justina from opening to memory can be seen as a honest, poetic telling of the event. Believers can attribute this all to divine intervention, quite literally, or not. All told I think it's a wonderful presentation of Faith, knowing but not knowing.

[andy6915]

And I strongly feel the Elven Gods are involved in this somehow, and of course Soals would lie and say no, since he's a liar and trickster. And I may or may not believe Sera is not what she is either. One thing's for sure, when I met her in DAO, I got a creepy vibe from that house.

 

What house? Who did you meet in DAO, a her? Sera? Uh... What?

[SwobyJ]

I think a lot of it is how you see it, since you ARE the Inquisitor.

 

For me, I do not like or believe in the Maker in a good way. All who worship him have died or suffered, or when they say the famous line about may he watch over them, they are dead soon after. I came up with a rather silly idea that the Maker is a demon or evil spirit of some sort that fooled Andraste and when everyone speaks the Chant of Light, they are pulling this monster slowly into their world. Like the Nightmare it's feeding off their belief and one day it will rise and take over. 

 

I find the "chosen ones' are people that the spirits are choosing to aid them in stopping this from happening. Leilana's voices are a spirit trying to reach her through her dreams, like Mythal did with Sandal. One thing that is considered plot, but I wonder if we could look deeper into it, is why was only your Inquisitor the one to hear the commotion going on with the Divine and Corypheus? What if the Divine was really that same spirit manifested like Cole and was calling to your PC? 

 

It's a rather silly theory as I said, but it's something I've been focusing on lately in my games, and I am never again going to support the Chantry, especially after JOH.

 

And I strongly feel the Elven Gods are involved in this somehow, and of course Soals would lie and say no, since he's a liar and trickster. And I may or may not believe Sera is not what she is either. One thing's for sure, when I met her in DAO, I got a creepy vibe from that house.

 

I think the Nightmare may explain some parts of some aspects of the Maker - from a certain point of view of course - but I don't think he's nearly as evil as the Nightmare, nor originated (if he exists in any sense) in the same sort of way.

 

But I also think its possible that you'll be allowed to keep your position that the Maker is not something that should be or is worthy of worship. This is a major position by characters in Dragon Age, and its something supported. But its also supported that the Maker is perhaps (again if he exists) the most powerful PLUS benevolent entity in Dragon Age, no matter one's personal issues with HOW powerful he is (could one be more powerful? is the Maker actually so powerful?) and HOW benevolent he is (can he be good if he turned his back on us?).

[SwobyJ]

Maybe, in the context of the DA world at least, its a good thing if everyone sings the Chant of Light then. Purify. Send those words and feelings and thoughts out into the Fade and change it.

 

Of course I don't really like the pure vision of the Chantry so whatever. But I'm a greeny Solas abstract reality kinda person.

[Ariella]

I think Dorian has the best conversation about religion and the Maker and the Chantry. That the Makers doesn't need people to believe in him. His existance doesn't hinge on it, but Dorian believes because he finds the alternative, that there is nothing a great deal more disturbing.

[midnight tea]

I think Dorian has the best conversation about religion and the Maker and the Chantry. That the Makers doesn't need people to believe in him. His existance doesn't hinge on it, but Dorian believes because he finds the alternative, that there is nothing a great deal more disturbing.

 

Oh I don't know, seeing how things work in Thedas and how a lot depends on power of will/belief/faith/memory, I wouldn't be surprised that gods (or whatever constitutes as "god" there) do indeed need people to believe in them in order for them to either exist or be powerful. In fact, the core belief of the Chantry - the Maker won't return until the Chant Of Light would be sung in every corner of Thedas - might be argued to reflect that as well.

[Laughing_Man]

There are things out there greater and more terrible than what the most exquisitely insane mortal can imagine in his most terrifying nightmares.

 

Things that warp reality itself merely by existing. Things that can destroy worlds with a stray thought.

 

Things that even their pale shadow or a mere mention of their unholy name is enough to leave the strongest mortal broken minded and gibbering in fear and delight.

 

Some things are not meant to be known by mortals. Because merely in knowing they seal their own doom.

 

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn