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[Jedi Master of Orion]

There were a few bits and pieces of lore from DAI that made me reflect back to the Temple of Sacred Ashes from the first game. Specifically, do you think maybe the Guardian of Sacred Ashes is supposed to be a spirit in the same vein as Cole? He has a solid body, and identifies himself as a real person who was one of Andraste's disciples. Perhaps a spirit of faith directly assumed the identity of a specific real person in the same way Cole did to the original Cole. Morrigan calls him a spirit and he does sort of behave in a certain way that is reminiscent of Cole's ability to appear and disappear. 

 

There was also a War Table quest related to the Temple of Sacred Ashes that mentions a Guardian who once guarded the temple of Sacred Ashes and then eventually left. I think there was a mission about finding his final resting place on one of Ferelden's islands.

 

That would also fit with my theory about the other apparitions in the temple. The ones who give you the test of knowledge appear to have memories from the time of Andraste, but it always seems unlikley they would have been actual ghosts of Andraste's followers, especially since some appear to be those who wouldn't actually have perished in a Ferelden temple. My feeling was that they were fade spirits who adopted the identities and beliefs of Andraste's oldest followers at the time the temple was built.

[Gervaise]

I think you are probably right and the ghosts of the followers of Andraste were faith spirits that followed them around.   After all the spirit in the Fade took on the form and memories of Justinia.   As for the Guardian, the fact that he can see into the minds of you and your companions definitely suggests he is a spirit with the appearance of the original bearer of the ashes, Havard.    I seem to recall that Morrigan even refers to him as a spirit when she refuses to answer his questions.

 

I don't think the Guardian is what we find on the island.    He was meant to have left with the ashes and I'm pretty sure we don't find them.    He said his role was to guard them until Tevinter is no more.   So I think he is still out there, waiting for it to happen.     May be since it seems likely the next game will be in Tevinter and thus it will be in peril, we could encounter him again.

 

Incidentally, I don't know if you have played Jaws of Hakkon but the beliefs of the Avaar concerning spirits and gods make the beliefs of the Disciples of Andraste that the Warden encounters make a whole lot more sense considering they are also the descendants of southern barbarians.

[Basement Cat]

Incidentally, I don't know if you have played Jaws of Hakkon but the beliefs of the Avaar concerning spirits and gods make the beliefs of the Disciples of Andraste that the Warden encounters make a whole lot more sense considering they are also the descendants of southern barbarians.

It also puts the Old Gods of Tevinter in a new light.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think you are probably right and the ghosts of the followers of Andraste were faith spirits that followed them around.   After all the spirit in the Fade took on the form and memories of Justinia.   As for the Guardian, the fact that he can see into the minds of you and your companions definitely suggests he is a spirit with the appearance of the original bearer of the ashes, Havard.    I seem to recall that Morrigan even refers to him as a spirit when she refuses to answer his questions.

 

I don't think the Guardian is what we find on the island.    He was meant to have left with the ashes and I'm pretty sure we don't find them.    He said his role was to guard them until Tevinter is no more.   So I think he is still out there, waiting for it to happen.     May be since it seems likely the next game will be in Tevinter and thus it will be in peril, we could encounter him again.

 

Incidentally, I don't know if you have played Jaws of Hakkon but the beliefs of the Avaar concerning spirits and gods make the beliefs of the Disciples of Andraste that the Warden encounters make a whole lot more sense considering they are also the descendants of southern barbarians.

 

What I meant was that there was an original Guardian that protected Andraste's ashes. But he was still mortal, and somehow a spirit of faith or duty or something took his place and his identity to fulfill his duty to guard the Sacred Ashes "until the Imperium crumbled", when he could not. And the original Guardian is the who went to that island afterward. The Guardian we see in the game does appear to have the ability to see into the memories of people very much like Cole does. 

 

I'm not sure if the Cult of Andraste is supposed to be a parallel to the Jaws of Hakkon, though. We learn more about the Avvar religion and they see the spirits themselves taking on the ideas of the beings they worship as their gods, I think. Kolgrim and his cult seemed to believe the dragon was literally Andraste herself reborn, not unlike the ancient Neromenians, I think actually.

 

I think the Avvar also have to enact special rituals both to draw the spirit to their desires to become reborn as one of their gods and in order to to bind the spirit into a dragon.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Guardian being a flesh and blood man living nearly a thousand years is implausible and yet having a demon become the original person isn't?

This fan base

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I didn't actually say it was implausible. Until recently I thought that's probably what he was. But his powers do seem to match up rather closely with Cole's. Plus we know Cole the spirit did become like Cole the person, so obviously there is precedent. There isn't any for humans becoming immortal by living next to a lot of lyrium. It's actually one of the reasons I thought there was a case to be made for the healing power of the Ashes, since there isn't any recording of random dust in lyrium mines the dwarves use becoming magical healing dust.

[Master Warder Z_]

Kolgrim claimed the guardian drew power from the ashes to sustain himself.

[The Baconer]

Kolgrim claimed the guardian drew power from the ashes to sustain himself.

 

Yet that wouldn't explain his ability to read minds, which has been, time and time again, a characteristic of spirits. Or blood mages, but I really don't believe that is the case here.

[myahele]

They could be Spirits tasked to protect the ash and ended up taking those forms.

 

"The brazier that stands atop the stairs in the great hall of our templehas always been something of a mystery to us. This is the brazier that created the beings we call the ash wraiths. This is where Andraste'sfollowers immolated themselves and became the eternal guardians of Her temple.

 

I have painstakingly pieced together information from old books and from the tales and half-truths passed down to us by our forefathers. I believe I now understand the ritual used to create the wraiths. The brazier was lit with a consecrated taper, its flame taken from the everlasting fire that long ago consumed Andraste Herself. The chosen disciple would fast and pray for weeks, taking into his body nothing but a sip of water a day. When the disciple was finally ready, he would place in his mouth a flawless black pearl, and step into the flames. In ancient Tevinter, black pearls were thought to be magical, able to stop the soul from passing through the Veil when held in the mouth at the moment of death.

 

Thus, Andraste's disciples consigned themselves to the eternal flame; they became dust and ashes, and rose again and again to protect the most Beloved of the Maker."

-- From the journal of Father Kolgrim.

 

Its possible these desciples knew a lot of Andraste due to the fact that their cult was the closest/ truest to Andraste's creed and have her unadulterated tomes ... or being spirits they can access that info in the Fade memory database ala Solas?

[Master Warder Z_]

Yet that wouldn't explain his ability to read minds

It could.

Unless if you have a documented and cited listing of all their properties and effects and residual exposure to them can cause over the course of centuries.

Honesty this is a theory that stinks of trying to explain faith as logic.

[Deztyn]

Honesty this is a theory that stinks of trying to explain faith as logic.

 

I really don't understand the need people have to rationalize away everything in Dragon Age.

 

Being a real life atheist? Sure, I get that.

 

Refusing to believe a real god could exist in a fantasy story? That boggles.
 

[Null_Mime]

I really don't understand the need people have to rationalize away everything in Dragon Age.

 

Being a real life atheist? Sure, I get that.

 

Refusing to believe a real god could exist in a fantasy story? That boggles.
 

 

Actually, given that a lot of the game is based on debating the credibility of Andrastean faith, I think it makes a good topic for lore speculation. Did the "Maker" really leave? Or was he never there to begin with? Maybe the pantheon of Old Gods wasn't cast down by this "Maker", but simply succumb to another cataclysm. One that left the "throne of the gods" empty and created the Blight. Maybe the "Maker" was one of the Old Gods, and it's his betrayal Mythal speaks of.

 

In other words, it's a pretty legit topic to debate.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Refusing to believe a real god could exist in a fantasy story? That boggles.

 

Really? When there's magic everywhere, you know there could be entities more powerful than you, but at what point do they become gods? I'd say that what fantasy does is muddy the definition of godhood still further than in real life. Is it truly a god if it can be killed or imprisoned such as it seems that the Old Gods and Elven Gods can? Given that you have magic, how does a god generate a bona fide miracle?

[Ariella]

I got the impression he was based of the Guardian in Indiana Jones, who was indeed a spirit. I doubt it was a spirit that became the Guardian though, I would say he lived a very long time like implied by using the ashes. Why I think that is if you kill Leliana, she says the ashes brought her back to life in DAI. When the ashes were shown to the world, the Guardian was no longer needed and could finally rest.

 

In regards to Cole, I am more than confirmed in my belief he is both Mercy (Asunder) and Compassion due to the spirit you meet who gave Andraste mercy by killing her in a moment of compassion for her suffering.

 

The Guardian in Last Crusade wasn't a spirit, he was the actual knight of the First Crusade who stayed with the Grail. The knight in the movie used the Grail, but not continuously. In the novelization, which I know isn't canon, it's mentioned he didn't believe he was worthy much of the time.

 

Remember, there was also a LOT of lyrium under that temple, which is why Oghren makes his one intelligent observation of the entire game: maybe THAT is why the ashes work. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You know, nothing about my suggestion is meant to imply the Maker doesn't exist.

[Ariella]

I meant at the end when he vanished. It was like he was finally leaving for good, so I think spirit when I see that, but he and the DAO Guardian are the same as in, both are not spirits inhabiting them, but when their tasks was done, they faded away eventually, their time having finally come and so they stopped living off of what was keeping them alive.

 

I wouldn't say the Grail Guardian disappears. The temple is falling down around them as Indy and Company are running out. He raises a hand to Indy and then boom. But yes, the whole bloody Temple of Sacred Ashes was an homage to Last Crusade, lacking only the tank and Sean Connery

[Ariella]

Lol yes, I think by the end you wonder if he is still around or not, but I guess I got the impression he faded away like a spirit. And yeah we actually get Arl Eamon as Sean Connery. 

 

The knight always seemed to... solid for me to think that. Thought I guess it's better than getting buried in a pile of rubble. 

 

And as much as I love Eamon, he just doesn't have Connery's voice. And I just realized, we even had a version of the Knights of the Cruciform Sword... they just happen to be evil blood mages and reavers.

[Ariella]

Lol yeah I think I dreamed up the spirit part because I didn't want him to die a gruesome death.

 

Lol I think DAO has waaay too many movie references, as does DA2 and just talking to Cole in DAI is one big movie spoiler!

 

Cole cannot be as bad as Joker. Half the things out of Jeff's mouth are movie references. Then, if you're going to get someone to play a pop culture critiquing wiseass you get Seth Green, and then you go full barrels.

[Ariella]

Mlady,

 

Admittedly I usually don't take Cole out so I haven't caught a lot of references from him but...

 

As for Cole, if there is someone I suspect of being like a little Spirit of Compassion, it's Justina... I know, it sounds strange, but from everything I've seen of her history, how she interects with Leliana including that journal at Redcliff, the fact the memories are different than the opening sequence... I'm not sure exactly and I have no proof, but....