178 réponses à ce sujet

[Basher of Glory]

Really, if there is someone out there who can explain it to me, I'd be delighted. The problem:

 

 

I remember the discussions about NWN 2 shortly after release. It was about the ugliness of our - mainly the female - characters and the even more ugly hairstyles. In fact Obsidian did not create real hairstyles; they just threw some paint onto our characters head and called it "hair". Fortunately some modders solved this in an impressive way AND in a very short time, so that we finally could look at our created characters without bleeding eyes (e.g. "Ren's Hair").

 

In DA:O the drama continued, but again some modders helped us (e.g. "Pineappletree's Vibrant Hair"). I guess, I must not continue to list all the stuff we saw in DA II and Mass Effect 1-3.

 

For some reasons neither Obsidian nor BW have put noticeable efforts into acceptable graphics for this part of the character creation. I never saw a statement, why they disregarded this tenaciously.

 

Out of boredom and because the PC-ports of these games are cheap, I purchased FF XIII / -2. Nice to play,  nice stories and all, but the most intriguing thing for me was the fact, that Square Enix is obviously able to design and implement credible, nice looking hairstyles. Not only in the movie sequences, but also in normal mode the hair of all characters looked natural, authentic and - well, just nice. I realize, that all the characters in FF... are given and thus, just one hairstyle per character must be created and implemented.

 

OTOH, NWN 2 and DA:O showed, what modders did  in a short time.

 

Now I ask, why is BW seemingly not able to deliver the same results?

[nightscrawl]

For some reasons neither Obsidian nor BW have put noticeable efforts into acceptable graphics for this part of the character creation. I never saw a statement, why they disregarded this tenaciously.

...
 
OTOH, NWN 2 and DA:O showed, what modders did  in a short time.
 
Now I ask, why is BW seemingly not able to deliver the same results?

Bioware has to develop their graphics for the lowest common denominator and that is, unfortunately, consoles. I don't care whether you think they should or not, but I can pretty much guarantee that they will not create hair specifically for the PC players, or put in some sort of toggle, or whathaveyou.
 
There is also the quality of the hair and the fitness within the Dragon Age setting. As much as I like the various DAO hair mods, the vast majority of them are totally inappropriate for the Dragon Age setting. Additionally, they vary in quality and texture, and almost all of the long hair styles have clipping issues -- yes, I DO know that some of the standard hair styles have clipping issues as well, but they DO try to avoid that).
 
Here is a tumblr post where David Gaider expounded on this specific issue. 

I’ve noted, when it comes to hair mods, that it’s not always that mods are the best that things can be but rather that mods have a lower bar for quality expectation — meaning that, if what you’re really interested in is new hairstyles for your character, you’re unlikely to mind things like awkward hair animation or clipping very much.
 
Read more...

That said, I do think that Bioware should look at reasonable mods like Tucked Hair, to see alternatives and what can be done with the hair as it currently is in a given game.

[Felya87]

IS not the console "fault". IS just an excuse elitariatic pc players bring out For no reason, since the old consoles have proven many Times to not have problems with many even moving, hairstyles. Dragon's dogma. Saint row. DA2. The FF games. And so on and so on. Hair moved in FF by the time of the PS2.

[midnight tea]

Hair might have moved in FF by time of PS2, but how simpler graphics were and how many features or mechanics didn't exist there, out of sheer limitation of hardware/software or inability of previous engine to deal with layers of graphic enhancers and filters that we have in games now?

Those graphic enhancers and filters will also come at the cost of having to rethink/re-design how, say, hair or skin or entire models were built before compared to now.

 

I mean, isn't Bioware credited for creating quadrupedal like horses for Frostbite 3? It's not like those didn't exist in previous engines, yet for current Frostbite they've had to re-think and design it, pretty much from the scratch, if I'm not mistaken.

[Felya87]

Hair might have moved in FF by time of PS2, but how simpler graphics were and how many features or mechanics didn't exist there, out of sheer limitation of hardware/software or inability of previous engine to deal with layers of graphic enhancers and filters that we have in games now?
Those graphic enhancers and filters will also come at the cost of having to rethink/re-design how, say, hair or skin or entire models were built before compared to now.

I mean, isn't Bioware credited for creating quadrupedal like horses for Frostbite 3? It's not like those didn't exist in previous engines, yet for current Frostbite they've had to re-think and design it, pretty much from the scratch, if I'm not mistaken.

Still nothing to fault console, since every time I see the crap "is the console fault!!!!!", while there is proof is not true.

[Guitar-Hero]

Its obviously because they have to create foliage and three extra leaves for the pc crowd, i am not making a value judgement or saying they should stop development for the pc, i am just saying they should stop developing for the pc.

[midnight tea]

Still nothing to fault console, since every time I see the crap "is the console fault!!!!!", while there is proof is not true.

 

You mean... the example you've given before? I think I wrote enough about the problem with such straightforward comparisons.

[midnight tea]

Its obviously because they have to create foliage and three extra leaves for the pc crowd, i am not making a value judgement or saying they should stop development for the pc, i am just saying they should stop developing for the pc.

 

Eh?

[Sunnie]

Still nothing to fault console, since every time I see the crap "is the console fault!!!!!", while there is proof is not true.

Such anger. I suppose you are a hardcore console apologist from the vitriol in your 2 posts. No biggie, wear it out.

It is true though, having to maintain downward compatibility with old-gen consoles has been detrimental to Inquisitions visuals/models, as well as crappy control schemes due to being designed first and foremost for consoles.

 

 

Its obviously because they have to create foliage and three extra leaves for the pc crowd, i am not making a value judgement or saying they should stop development for the pc, i am just saying they should stop developing for the pc.

lol

[duckley]

Well I too would be curious as to why the hair in all three games is kind of meh - including ME by the way. I am totally just curious. I don't see how it could be a console issue given Dragons Dogma, Tomb Raider,  and more recently, the Witcher. The clipping argument is a non-issue for me - I don't notice any game or immersion breaking clipping issues in Dogma or Witcher for example. I do however, find the shaved balding heads on women in  DA:I as well as some of the 21st century punk hairdos very immersion breaking - so go figure.

 

Anyway the main thing is that many players like myself are just genuinely curious to understand the thinking that went into the current range of hairstyles, and if there are any plans to add something for this game or try something different for next.

[SharpWalkers]

Can't say I ever had issues with the hairstyles in DA:O. Not for my male or female wardens. 

[Basher of Glory]

I'm not sure for which consoles FF XII / -2 were developed, because I do not own a console.

 

Nevertheless, isn't that evidence enough, that THIS issue is not caused by consoles?

 

The port to PC for both FF-games is generally considered "poor". So I don't think, that Square Enix put any effort into enhancements for the PC-port.

Yet not only the hair looks awesome.

 

IMO the discussion went a wrong path by blaming certain systems for the "ugly stuff" we have to look at.

 

 

For DA:O and NWN2 mods:

 

As an "early adopter" of mods, I saw indeed clipping issues. In general one week later a new version was available which fixed the glitches. The same goes for NWN2-mods.

 

The argument "immersion breaking"  must be a joke. When I have all the sudden dozens of nice hairstyles, it is up to me to decide about my immersion and things able to break it, right?

[midnight tea]

Well I too would be curious as to why the hair in all three games is kind of meh - including ME by the way. I am totally just curious. I don't see how it could be a console issue given Dragons Dogma, Tomb Raider,  and more recently, the Witcher. The clipping argument is a non-issue for me - I don't notice any game or immersion breaking clipping issues in Dogma or Witcher for example. I do however, find the shaved balding heads on women in  DA:I as well as some of the 21st century punk hairdos very immersion breaking - so go figure.

 

Anyway the main thing is that many players like myself are just genuinely curious to understand the thinking that went into the current range of hairstyles, and if there are any plans to add something for this game or try something different for next.

 

Honestly, I LOVED Dragon's Dogma, mostly because if extensive CC, bad-ass combat, customization pawns and delightful vocations.

 

Anything other than that was pretty underdeveloped - the map was kinda on the small-ish side, the story and characters had potential, but the execution was shaky at best, no crafting, not many many choices (in fact, the game either punished players who strayed from chosen path or forced them on it), and cut-scenes were... either kinda meh or funny (unless they were awkward).

 

Oh and the affinity system.... OH MY GOD the affinity system was the most hilarious thing EVER.

 

Honestly, I'd actually preferred for them if they cut a bit of customization for the sake for say, more story options for the character, because at some point I realize that it rally doesn't matter how bad-ass and unique my characters or pawns look, the story is always the same... Truly, at some point the only reason to keep loading another NG++ save is to go on BitterBlack Isle to troll Death and try and collect the ultimate version of OP armor, with its insane RNG.

[Hrungr]

All I know is I miss my Warden's epic hair...

 

 

*sigh* 

 

O for a DAI toolset....

[devSin]

I think it mostly comes down to time and customization (with a sprinkling of memory limitations on the old consoles).

They could do it if they wanted to, but it would be a nontrivial investment because of the many character creation and equipment options. BioWare routinely chooses to direct their efforts elsewhere.

[Felya87]

I'm not sure for which consoles FF XII / -2 were developed, because I do not own a console.

Nevertheless, isn't that evidence enough, that THIS issue is not caused by consoles?

The port to PC for both FF-games is generally considered "poor". So I don't think, that Square Enix put any effort into enhancements for the PC-port.
Yet not only the hair looks awesome.

IMO the discussion went a wrong path by blaming certain systems for the "ugly stuff" we have to look at.

FF XIII/2 was on PS3 and xbox360.

Since so many, even older games had more and better hair than DAI, I really can't see the old console as the ones to blame. It is becaming quite tiredly, expecially when DA2 had hair that moved, and not so many shaved styles.

Is quite Clear the problem wasn't the consoles, but hair implementation in General.

[devSin]

FF XIII/2 was on PS3 and xbox360.

Since so many, even older games had more and better hair than DAI, I really can't see the old console as the ones to blame. It is becaming quite tiredly, expecially when DA2 had hair that moved, and not so many shaved styles.

Inquisition does more than just hair.

Resources are finite, especially with the old consoles. If you spend X amount of the capability of the machine doing one thing, that's X less you have for something else.

So yes, there's no technological limitation that would keep them from being able to have better hair, but it's likely it would require compromises to other parts of the game.

[Sunnie]

Lets also not forget that BW was forced to use Frostbite 3, an engine that was never meant to do things like detailed hair or RPG mechanics. Consider us lucky that they got working what we got. Had it not taken 70% of the dev cycle to get all the added systems in place and working in FB3, we might have gotten quite a few things better.

[Basher of Glory]

Sounds conclusively.

 

BTW, it is not "detailed" hair, like the screenie above shows. It's not even animated, if I remember correctly.

It just looks WAYS better than all the pre-made stuff which came with the game.

 

But then I ask, how a modder can make dozens of (not clipping) hairstyles (as one example among many great mods) within a couple of weeks, given that he had a toolset like in DA:O?

 

Perhaps my thinking of "the modder" is false, because until now I considered them as persons with a job, who have chosen to mod games in their

free time, as hobby.

 

If my thinking is not false and the modder-scene consists of "very advanced amateurs", who dedicate their free time to their hobby:

How can these people have "the resources" which BW has supposedly not?

 

Obsidian showed, how "missing resources" can be compensated:

 

Instead of creating a totally new AI for NWN2, they came to an agreement with Tony K., literally outsourcing the AI-coding.

 

In other words: It's hard for me to believe all these dev-excuses. When there is a will, there will be a way.

[BansheeOwnage]

Bioware has to develop their graphics for the lowest common denominator and that is, unfortunately, consoles. I don't care whether you think they should or not, but I can pretty much guarantee that they will not create hair specifically for the PC players, or put in some sort of toggle, or whathaveyou.
 
There is also the quality of the hair and the fitness within the Dragon Age setting. As much as I like the various DAO hair mods, the vast majority of them are totally inappropriate for the Dragon Age setting. Additionally, they vary in quality and texture, and almost all of the long hair styles have clipping issues -- yes, I DO know that some of the standard hair styles have clipping issues as well, but they DO try to avoid that).
 
Here is a tumblr post where David Gaider expounded on this specific issue. 

That said, I do think that Bioware should look at reasonable mods like Tucked Hair, to see alternatives and what can be done with the hair as it currently is in a given game.

Okay, a few things I need to say here:

 

1. I don't generally see people complaining about the graphical level of the hairstyles. Some, sure, but the main gripes are that there are simply not enough good-looking styles, as well as the whole sideburns/baldness thing. So why are you even talking about graphical level in a way that it sounds like you're excusing bad hair design? The two are unrelated.

 

2. I seriously doubt hair styles are limited by consoles (at least not very much anymore). Graphical level? Yes. Animation? Sure. But not the design, which is the key complaint.

 

3. So you're saying a lot of modded hairstyles don't fit in Dragon Age? I agree, but that's irrelevant. Modders can make whatever they want. That doesn't mean devs couldn't make more styles that do fit in DA. More importantly though, have you seen the styles in Inquisition? If you want to see a set of hairs that doesn't fit the theme, look no further. It's jarring to see the characters in DA:O/2 vs DA:I. The hair is a big part of that, and that is immersion-breaking.

 

4. Please don't equate every request for hair as a request for long hair. We all understand that can clip (but doesn't have to). Now, most of us probably don't mind, especially considering the exorbitant amount of clipping in DA:I alone, but it's not a baseless excuse. That said, there is no reason they can't have more short, medium, braided, and up-do styles.

 

5. As for what Gaider said about sacrificing good animation when you use modded hair: What?... None of the hair for Shepard, the Warden, Hawke, or the Inquisitor have any animation whatsoever. Occasionally, you'll see some on NPCs. But his point is, well, pointless, because it doesn't even apply.

 

Anyway, all it comes down to is "does Bioware want to do it?" If I were them, I'd have already done it. You would at worst generate a lot of goodwill, and at best do that as well as make some easy money. I bet they'd make more money from a hair/Skyhold outfit pack than Spoils of the Avvar. Easily. So in the end I think they're extremely stubborn, both at our disadvantage as well as their own.

[Basher of Glory]

Two comments:

 

Point 5:

During the last years I have more and more the feeling, that these devs talk like politicians, who absolved a basic marketing-seminar.

Many words, precious little message, almost nothing concrete, avoid the topic, if necessary simply lie.

 

Last paragraph:

I didn't buy the DLC "Spoils of the Avvar". Why would I want another mount? What should I do with another style for my fortress?

I'd certainly buy said "Hair / Outfit pack" IF it would catch up with standards set by other developers.

[BansheeOwnage]

Two comments:

 

Point 5:

During the last years I have more and more the feeling, that these devs talk like politicians, who absolved a basic marketing-seminar.

Many words, precious little message, almost nothing concrete, avoid the topic, if necessary simply lie.

 

Last paragraph:

I didn't buy the DLC "Spoils of the Avvar". Why would I want another mount? What should I do with another style for my fortress?

I'd certainly buy said "Hair / Outfit pack" IF it would catch up with standards set by other developers.

I definitely agree. I'm really tired of the evasive, snarky comments instead of just being direct but also polite. Their wording is very political and that's depressing. Gaming is supposed to be about fun, not legal-speak to cover yourself. Some developers are still fun, but it's fading

 

I'm not going to buy it either. Exactly, who wants more mounts? I haven't seen a single person ask for more mounts, or more Skyhold decorations you barely see, etc. What I have seen many, many, many people all over the internet ask for is a hair/outfit pack, and that's why I would bet they'd make more money with one comparatively. So I can't help but wonder what the reasoning for not making one is. Where's the *shakes fist* emoticon when you need it?

[KaiserShep]

Can't say I ever had issues with the hairstyles in DA:O. Not for my male or female wardens. 

 

I thought most were so-so, but there were at least a larger number out of the lot that I felt were acceptable to good. Here, it's downright criminal lol. Between both male and female, I think that there are only three styles that I care for at all, and that's for both genders. 

 

I just don't understand what the big problem is with creating hair. Even Cassandra's hair kind of bugs me with that odd braid thing crowning her head. Cullen, Varric and Sera at least get decent hair (with Sera's even being somewhat dynamic). I guess Calpernia deserves a notable mention as well. 

[Basher of Glory]

Don't forget Morrigan!

 

In DA:O and DA II her style was only available after a modder made it happen.

 

"downright criminal".... that's really good!

[InterrogationBear]

Lets also not forget that BW was forced to use Frostbite 3, an engine that was never meant to do things like detailed hair or RPG mechanics. Consider us lucky that they got working what we got. Had it not taken 70% of the dev cycle to get all the added systems in place and working in FB3, we might have gotten quite a few things better.

What a bunch of BS. Even if your engine doesn't have special hair renderers, you can always use middleware like TressFX or Hairworks.

 

The female characters in BF4 have much better hair than the PCs/NPCs in recent Bioware games. The hair in the Mass Effect games wasn't bad because they used Unreal, it was bad because Bioware is not good at making convincing looking hair.