178 réponses à ce sujet

[Basher of Glory]

@ Scofield

 

To Talk with good old Sand from NWN 2: "I derive pleasure from clarification..."

 

I guess, we all are convinced, that DA:I is a good game. At least I played games, which were far worse.

 

On the other hand, all these posts show, that we care about the game AND BioWare as one of the greatest developer of such games.

 

Perhaps this is why we are a bit sad, that especially this developer, who should be the vanguard and the shining example of brilliance,

fails when it comes down to seemingly peripheral stuff:

 

* hairstyles

* skillbar

* fetch quests

* etc.

 

justifying that with false excuses aka lies.

 

As I wrote earlier, they behave like nowadays politicians who seem to live in a world in which

truth is the exception and the lie a common way of communication between a company (government) and customer (people).

 

We all know about the problems of too early announced release dates and the results:

Postponements, unplayable versions 1.0, too late delivered fixes of game breaking bugs, promised but missing content etc.

 

Only speaking for me but being convinced, that this is the opinion of many:

I could live with all that if those who are responsible told me the truth. But unfortunately... see line about "politicians"

 

But perhaps it is like someone else stated:

 

They (the devs) still think, that the gamers (their customers) are a bunch of premature nerds, while some of us

already are retired (but not retarded) persons

[BansheeOwnage]

As stated before: They simply lie. Hard to understand, but a matter of fact.

Oh, I was here for the ME3 debacle. Trust me, I know they lie (or are unintentionally just plain wrong). I just get annoyed when people say "Nope, they never lie, ever! Everything they say must be believed as 100% accurate!"

 

Yes, yes... because it never happened to a company - big or no - that they had to cut some element or component they didn't manage to develop on time (when in more than one article they mentioned cuts that happened due to either schedule or technical limitations).... Plus, we've never seen the link to the article. I'd like to read it myself to see the context.

Here you go! It's near the bottom of the page, and here's the quote:

 

"I tried out FiberMesh a bit and it was pretty amazing. It's great for allowing you to create some more believable looking hair or fur really quickly."

[Felya87]

I'd like to know at least the reasoning from the choice of the hairstyles we got   expecially for the Qunari: how could those fat and badly implemented corncrows be thought as good, or the sad granny style, or the baby mohawke? Wouldn't have been just as much work make a normal bun or a ponytail be as much work?

 

In many cases aren't just the implemention, but the style of hair we got that are really questionable.

[Basher of Glory]

I'd like to know at least the reasoning from the choice of the hairstyles we got   expecially for the Qunari: how could those fat and badly implemented corncrows be thought as good, or the sad granny style, or the baby mohawke? Wouldn't have been just as much work make a normal bun or a ponytail be as much work?

 

In many cases aren't just the implemention, but the style of hair we got that are really questionable.

For me a RPG-character must be something I like to look at, for many hours.

 

Some might find it ridiculous, but nevertheless:

I started two Qunari and played them until they reached Skyhold. I stopped playing them because of their ugliness, caused by said hair in the first place.

For me they looked like Sumo wrestlers on diet.

[Felya87]

For me a RPG-character must be something I like to look at, for many hours.

 

Some might find it ridiculous, but nevertheless:

I started two Qunari and played them until they reached Skyhold. I stopped playing them because of their ugliness, caused by said hair in the first place.

For me they looked like Sumo wrestlers on diet.

 

I've finished my Qunari run, but her horrible hair bugged me the entire time. Even more, having to find a middle ground between the horns I liked (of course my preferred ones came with the horrible mohawke or with no hair at all) and the less repugnant hair.

I have this little habit of giveing to every hcaracter hair that fit their personality. With Qunari was basically impossible to do so. How can a Qunari that care about her appearance, for example, decorate with jevels her horns, but have such abominable hair? I really love play a Qunari woman. So tall and imposing. Such a breath of fresh hair! But than hair don't really let me have the character I want.

[midnight tea]

Oh, I was here for the ME3 debacle. Trust me, I know they lie (or are unintentionally just plain wrong). I just get annoyed when people say "Nope, they never lie, ever! Everything they say must be believed as 100% accurate!"

 

Here you go! It's near the bottom of the page, and here's the quote:

 

"I tried out FiberMesh a bit and it was pretty amazing. It's great for allowing you to create some more believable looking hair or fur really quickly."

 

Thanks.

 

And... ah, of course, as I expected - they were talking about something completely different.

 

Hon, FiberMesh is a mesh generator tool for ZBRUSH, not a hair/fur module for game engine.

 

It also doesn't help create "realistic hair and fur extremely quickly" - it helps to create "more believable looking hair or fur really quickly". There's a significant difference between the two. FiberMesh is a tool that helps to speed-up the process (of generating hair on a model in that case), just like scripts that help lay out texture on entire model, but it doesn't do the job of creating realistic coiffures by itself.

 

It also doesn't help them create more believable low poly hair or fur in game (with all the animation and physics), only when they're designing (static) models and assets in Zbrush itself.

 

Conclusion? Please don't accuse them of lying when you don't know what you're talking about.

Modifié par midnight tea, 22 juin 2015 - 04:11 .

[Basher of Glory]

Conclusion? Please don't accuse them of lying when you don't know what you're talking about.

Nobody "accused" the quoted person in particular.

 

But then again, it is not the customer's job to verify such messages. We must not learn and study everything to understand our medics,

lawyers and game developers. Instead it's their duty to inform us in an understandable way.

 

If they prefer to talk their profession specific lingo, they take the risk to be misinterpreted. This is why many of them prefer to evade and use "diplomatic" phrases,

which are in the best case bland and in the worst nothing but lies.

 

Now add the marketing-gibberish and you have your "newspeak".

[midnight tea]

Nobody "accused" the quoted person in particular.

 

But then again, it is not the customer's job to verify such messages. We must not learn and study everything to understand our medics,

lawyers and game developers. Instead it's their duty to inform us in an understandable way.

 

If they prefer to talk their profession specific lingo, they take the risk to be misinterpreted. This is why many of them prefer to evade and use "diplomatic" phrases,

which are in the best case bland and in the worst nothing but lies.

 

Now add the marketing-gibberish and you have your "newspeak".

 

Nobody asks you to understand everything game developer does - what is asked is you is not to jump to conclusions for no reason other than your own ignorance on the matter, or taking things wildly out of context.

 

I'd also like to point out that every information you needed was there, in the interview, for even a random joe who drifts on the site understand what the article's about - in that part they talked VERY SPECIFICALLY about using Zbrush and its features and they even had a link - in the quote itself - that led to a site that explained what FiberMesh is. The only thing to understand the context of the quote needed here is basic reading comprehension.

 

In any case, it wasn't an interview done for, say, gaming magazine done for marketing purposes - it was an interview done for creator of Zbrush itself (Pixologic), posted on their site, that operated with lingo appropriate to why the article was made in the first place (talking with a few game devs from DA dev team predominantly about their use of Zbrush in design - be it the concept stage or design that happens prior to converting it to low poly or animating it).

 

Having that in mind your strange claims of creating "newspeak" and marketing-gibberish are hilarious at best.

[BansheeOwnage]

Thanks.

 

And... ah, of course, as I expected - they were talking about something completely different.

 

Conclusion? Please don't accuse them of lying when you don't know what you're talking about.

I read a quote, that seemed like its thought started and ended in it's own paragraph, that said they used a tool to make hair quickly. How is that jumping to conclusions? It's what they said, even if it's apparently misleading.

 

I didn't accuse them of lying about this, ever. I read that it was easy, and said that meant forumgoers who claimed it was hard should read that it was easy. I didn't say anything about the devs lying.

 

Regardless of it all, they did an abysmal job, and apparently won't consider fixing it, which I find vexing and rather annoying. Made more tragic by the fact the the lack of hair undermines the awesomeness of the rest of the CC. Ever heard the expression "goes as fast as the slowest person"? In this case, the CC only "goes as fast" as the number of hairs you find acceptable.

[BansheeOwnage]

Having that in mind your strange claims of creating "newspeak" and marketing-gibberish are hilarious at best.

Again, it seems like you're taking things out of context. Basher of Glory was talking about a general attitude Bioware (and other companies) have had in an increasing amount in the last few years, not this interview. And s/he's right.

[midnight tea]

I read a quote, that seemed like its thought started and ended in it's own paragraph, that said they used a tool to make hair quickly. How is that jumping to conclusions? It's what they said, even if it's apparently misleading..

 

Every single paragraph above and below (up until they asked another question) is an answer to "What new features were the most helpful to you in your work this time around?". It's pretty clear to everyone who reads more than one line.

 

You specifically took ONE paragraph out of it, as if anything else didn't matter. This is a textbook example of "quote mining" (also known as contexomy) and "jumping to conclusions".

 

 

 

I didn't accuse them of lying about this, ever. I read that it was easy, and said that meant forumgoers who claimed it was hard should read that it was easy. I didn't say anything about the devs lying.

 

You've used a quote-mined line as an argument to say that Bioware's not exactly honest about how easy/hard something can be. True, that's not straightforward accusation of lying - that's Basher's doing, but it's still not cool thing to do. If anything, this is a good reminder to use sources we quote - people can read it and point out what it's actually about (if there are any doubts about that).

 

 

 

 

Regardless of it all, they did an abysmal job, and apparently won't consider fixing it, which I find vexing and rather annoying. Made more tragic by the fact the the lack of hair undermines the awesomeness of the rest of the CC. Ever heard the expression "goes as fast as the slowest person"? In this case, the CC only "goes as fast" as the number of hairs you find acceptable.

 

I'm not claiming that they've made a marvelous job out of hair - I'd certainly prefer to at least see more variety. At this point however, I prefer for them to focus on new SP DLC rather than customization options. If anything, it seems that adding a few of those is harder than some may assume, especially if taking into consideration how many adjustments have to be done to fit those to all available races. It's just not as easy as slapping a few hair meshes and textures, just like it's not easy to create optional armors, with all the clipping and moving parts.

 

 

 

Again, it seems like you're taking things out of context. Basher of Glory was talking about a general attitude Bioware (and other companies) have had in an increasing amount in the last few years, not this interview. And s/he's right.

 

 

Uh... read the comment more carefully, please. This end remark was thrown after Basher basically said "well, its their fault if we dig out a line out of an interview made by designer pros FOR designer pros using specific software (and not your regular gamer) and misinterpret something (taken clearly out of context) they describe in their profession-specific lingo"... which is absurd.

[Basher of Glory]

Well, midnight tea, we all see that you are not up for a discussion.

I started to wonder, when the first of your sort pops in, after two pages of this thread were peaceful and civilized.

 

If I should be too touchy and you really want to talk:

 

Every time, but then you should change your tone and your attitude AND read exactly what we wrote.

[BansheeOwnage]

You specifically took ONE paragraph out of it, as if anything else didn't matter. This is a textbook example of "quote mining" (also known as contexomy) and "jumping to conclusions".

That's because that one paragraph seemed largely unrelated to the others. My impression of the interview (yes, I read more than the paragraph) was that they kept jumping all over the place with questions, and had short answers. To me, it seemed like I included all the context I saw. Don't treat me like an idiot, because I don't think I did anything stupid. Sometimes, you try to do something right, and still end up wrong. (Although I'm still confused about exactly how I'm wrong.)

 

You've used a quote-mined line as an argument to say that Bioware's not exactly honest about how easy/hard something can be. True, that's not straightforward accusation of lying - that's Basher's doing, but it's still not cool thing to do. If anything, this is a good reminder to use sources we quote - people can read it and point out what it's actually about (if there are any doubts about that).

I never said Bioware said it was hard. I said people said it was hard. I found an example of Bioware saying it wasn't too hard. If I misinterpreted that, so be it, but I never accused the devs of lying in this regard.

 

I'm not claiming that they've made a marvelous job out of hair - I'd certainly prefer to at least see more variety. At this point however, I prefer for them to focus on new SP DLC rather than customization options. If anything, it seems that adding a few of those is harder than some may assume, especially if taking into consideration how many adjustments have to be done to fit those to all available races. It's just not as easy as slapping a few hair meshes and textures, just like it's not easy to create optional armors, with all the clipping and moving parts.

Well, they are apparently intent on selling us things like Spoils of the Avvar alongside working on SP DLC, so why not simply make a different kind of pack (that more people want)? There is no reason to assume they can't do both, as they've made gear/aesthetic packs since ME2 alongside SP DLC, no problem.

 

Uh... read the comment more carefully, please. This end remark was thrown after Basher basically said "well, its their fault if we dig out a line out of an interview made by designer pros FOR designer pros using specific software (and not your regular gamer) and misinterpret something (taken clearly out of context) they describe in their profession-specific lingo"... which is absurd.

The quote I provided wasn't technical. At all. The only "profession-specific lingo" in it was the title of the program.

 

"I tried out FiberMesh a bit and it was pretty amazing. It's great for allowing you to create some more believable looking hair or fur really quickly."

 

What in that paragraph is complicated? How else am I supposed to read it so it doesn't appear to say "We can use this to make hair fairly fast"?

[line_genrou]

BioWare have two obvious limitations:

 

Hair and facial animation

.

 

I mean, for f's sake, compared to DAI Capcom had immensely superior facial animation with Resident Evil 5 which was released in 2009!

 

I really don't know what is the problem with BioWare. Can't they just hire talented people for this?

[BansheeOwnage]

BioWare have two obvious limitations:

 

Hair and facial animation

.

 

I mean, for f's sake, compared to DAI Capcom had immensely superior facial animation with Resident Evil 5 which was released in 2009!

 

I really don't know what is the problem with BioWare. Can't they just hire talented people for this?

They get very slightly better each game (with animations) but at a rate much too low, and now we still have animations from the ME1 era being used, so it's definitely time for an upgrade. I'm hoping the next game does a total redo, with actual mo-cap for everything.

[Basher of Glory]

They get very slightly better each game (with animations) but at a rate much too low, and now we still have animations from the ME1 era being used, so it's definitely time for an upgrade. I'm hoping the next game does a total redo, with actual mo-cap for everything.

What should they do else? If we look at actual games and even go back some years, BW's last competence is the narrative element

and their reputation of the past years.

 

While other companies try to deliver more content, better graphics and even more enjoyable gameplay (topic: Toolbar limitation),

BW seems to be on the (EA?-) trip to want max profit for min efforts.

 

Of course they still produce good games. But I see reviews in the future with phrases like

"...still a good game in old BW-tradition. Graphics, interface etc. seem to be from a past era, so it can be only 5/10..."

[Felya87]

Facial animation actually wasn't that bad this time. Not always, of course, but there are some good facial animation, expecially for companions. I know I can't really expect the levels of Naughty Dogs or Quantic Dream. Surely the facial customization of the Inquisitor is a factor against animations, but is a great improvemant from DAO and DA2.

[BansheeOwnage]

Facial animation actually wasn't that bad this time. Not always, of course, but there are some good facial animation, expecially for companions. I know I can't really expect the levels of Naughty Dogs or Quantic Dream. Surely the facial customization of the Inquisitor is a factor against animations, but is a great improvemant from DAO and DA2.

Yes, facial animations were definitely better. Movement, hand gestures, body language, etc... Please improve

 

As a bit of an aside: Bioware really needs to work on animations that involve collisions. Bioware games almost never have a character hand someone something on-screen, and that needs to be fixed. I just played the intro again, and not even the handshakes are onscreen. Actually, you can see the hand a little, and you can blatantly see that the Inquisitor's hand is not in Cassandra's at all during the "handshake" So yeah. Try to actually have people touch each other and hand each other items. Thanks.

[perfect_victime]

If they would have kept some of the DA: 2 hair would have been better. Sadly, this is all moot. I seriously doubt any hair DLCs are going to be made. IF any were being worked on it would be a few years down the line on a DA:4 game.  The most we can hope for is a story DLC another armor pack, and a couple Multi-player packs. I hope I am wrong, but that is my belief.

[Felya87]

Yes, facial animations were definitely better. Movement, hand gestures, body language, etc... Please improve

 

As a bit of an aside: Bioware really needs to work on animations that involve collisions. Bioware games almost never have a character hand someone something on-screen, and that needs to be fixed. I just played the intro again, and not even the handshakes are onscreen. Actually, you can see the hand a little, and you can blatantly see that the Inquisitor's hand is not in Cassandra's at all during the "handshake" So yeah. Try to actually have people touch each other and hand each other items. Thanks.

 

Yep. Hand movemant outside of fighting are terrible  there are certain scene that are very "doll" feeling. Like the animators couldn't make the fingers bend in any way.

[Basher of Glory]

There are certainly many things to be "polished" during the next years.

 

If we look closely, every game has (at least) minor flaws. In regard of these I believe it, when the devs say "...we had to concentrate on other things and

neither the resources nor the time to make everything 100%...".

 

I can just hope, that they will acknowledge our wishes and suggestions as serious and valid and not dismiss them as "overblown and unrealistic".

[DreamSever]

sorry there is no excuse to defend this, since when has there been more options for bald heads, no long hairstyles or ponytails, I understand clipping, but look at its rival rpg's they can do it, why cant bioware

[Basher of Glory]

The worst they could do right now is to release a DLC "Hairstyles and Inquisitor dress pack" for more than 0.00 $ 

[BansheeOwnage]

 

I can just hope, that they will acknowledge our wishes and suggestions as serious and valid and not dismiss them as "overblown and unrealistic".

sorry there is no excuse to defend this, since when has there been more options for bald heads, no long hairstyles or ponytails, I understand clipping, but look at its rival rpg's they can do it, why cant bioware

Exactly. If other games manage great (or at least acceptable) hair all the time, Bioware can, if they try. But even if other games didn't, that's still no reason for Bioware not to try. They should always strive to out-do themselves, in every regard, and no matter what, not diminish in quality as they go.

 

A constant is acceptable, but regression is not.

[Zered]

For an such experienced studio to put so little effort into the customization of our character is a big disappointment.