429 réponses à ce sujet

[Kabraxal]

Given that out of everything you described companion quests are the only thing that can even possibly be argued as been done better in DA:I, I'm not really impressed by your comparison.

 

Companion quests: You have quite a few quests you do for your friends / companions in TW3, many of those quests are longer and arguably more meaningful than the average DA:I companion quest.

 

Judgements: Meh. Aside from the funny parts I didn't really care about it.

 

Astrariums: ... Is this really supposed to be something DA:I did better than TW3?... Seriously?

 

Notes, ruins, objects: There are actually some very interesting examples of exploration of ancient ruins in TW3. More things of this nature were added in the latest expansion. But yes, I would agree that generally, Dragon Age games go deeper into the Lore than TW, which is a real shame because the world of TW is no less interesting IMO.

 

Customization of Skyhold: You mean perhaps the parts that ended up being cut from the game?

Because as far as I remember, the upgrades are linear and are barely noticed even after the fact.

 

War table: It was mildly interesting. Very few missions really caught my attention. Certainly nothing to write home about.

 

The TW3 companion quests were jokes.... for crying out loud, you were a glorified errand boy with hardly any interaction with those companions.  And that is more meaningful?  

 

Judgements - again, it offered deeper role playing than TW3 could ever hope to offer.  Am I a staunch lawful Inquisitor that punishes harshly?  Or is there lenience and atonement? Or will I play along with the joke and have the box of remains go on tour? 

 

Astrariums - I enjoy puzzles.  It is different than the other quests.  Yes, having that is better than slamming me with the same boring style like TW3 did. 

 

Customisation - changing the throne, the windows, the décor, how you dress, the weapon you use, the crafting available being far better than TW3... yes, there is a lot there for dedicated roleplayers that want to make each run match the character they are running. 

 

Seriously, all I see is Inquisition's content being tossed away.  And what I am noticing is that the divide is coming from players that want a far more set protagonist and lesser customization around that protagonist and those players that are more the old school D&D style roleplayers that want the characters to be left up to them and the customization to really create a much deeper experience within that roleplay. 

 

The Witcher does fine for a far more defined protagonist with very limited roleplaying and questing that is less robust in variety.  Inquisition is better for less defined characters with a variety of quests and customization designed for the player to invest into creating and making the Inquisitor their own.  I am far more into one style than the other, which is why I prefer Inquisition.  And honestly, Bioware still does the other style better with Mass Effect so Bioware wins in my opinion regardless.

 

 

[RoboticWater]

And this is the attitude that is annoying.  It is my "tolerance for a lack of lore and context" that is apparently fact instead of it merely being an opinion.

But there was one. I haven't seen any convincing evidence to the contrary.
 

That sense of lore/context you got from that pan quest, I got from finding out how those occularum were built or the notes written by a dragon researcher that abruptly ended or the myriad of notes and items you find in the Hissing Wastes that reveal an aspect of history that was thought to be different.  I did not get that feeling from the pan quest.. in fact, by that point I was already bored of the repetitive nature of talk to X, follow the Witcher sense, dust hands off in completion quest system and felt about that game what many feel about Inquisition.

Even I I thought DA:I had an adequate amount of historical context (see the shards quest and others as for why I don't), I still think nearly every quest lacks a sense of personal investment and presentation. Not enough of DA:I's quests are contextualized with personal and meaningful stakes. A quest in Witcher or Pillars will tie itself into the culture of the community right in front of you and present you with characters with deep backstories and a genuine sense of belonging in their own world–and this is important; many of DA:I's quests could be transplanted into any old fantasy setting and sill work (most quests don't break free of their base archetypal nature), but quests in these other games are often so uniquely tied to their settings that they simply wouldn't work elsewhere. These quests have conflicts that are more than "I'm missing X," they're usually nuanced stories that hold up in their own right. 
 
History is fine and dandy, but an encyclopedia entry alone isn't going to cut it. Why does this place matter now? Why am I here (not just any old adventurer)? What part of this place's history can I relate to? And again, there are so many more questions of context for so much of DA:I's world. Why are these dragons here? What are they living off of? Do these bandits seem like an actual threat to villages around them? How are these isolated rifts affecting everyday life? I never felt like these kinds of questions were answered adequately enough. 
 

But then, the Witcher is the king of cut and paste design overall... I was sick of the generic village with the generic quest giver with a repetitive completion mechanic.  You people keep crying about how much more superior it was... all it did was cover repetition and its generic design up in cutscenes.  If you like that style more, fine... but it is not objectively better.

I found the Witcher's quests incredibly repetitive as well, but I can divorce my opinions of the gameplay from the overall narrative structure. But I don't think you could convince me that DA:I was any less repetitive than the Witcher's. The gameplay loop was essentially: start quest, kill mooks, get item(s), return. It's just the Witcher minus the red line following (and all the good stuff I mentioned earlier). I'm not sure where you're seeing this depth and variety. The Witcher at least had a better excuse for having the repetitive structure seeing as it's just a job and all.

 
I wish DA:I's quests had unique and engaging mechanics supporting them (I think that's another area where ME:A can improve to please everyone) because that would tide me over their lackluster presentation.

[Laughing_Man]

*snip*

 

Oh well, you are entitled to your opinion. I don't really feel the need to convince you otherwise.

 

For me the bottom line is the game experience overall: With DA:I I felt a noticeable measure of frustration and annoyance due to gameplay mechanics,

and an overall sense of boredom through most of the quests (aside from a handful of occasions that all happened during the main quest chain).

 

With TW3 what I felt most of the time was interest, fun, and amusement.

(the few problems I had with gameplay elements were easily fixed by mods, something which was notoriously more difficult with DA:I)

 

That's more than enough for me, and considering how the game was received I'm guessing that those feelings are quite common.

[Kabraxal]

But there was one. I haven't seen any convincing evidence to the contrary.
 

Even I I thought DA:I had an adequate amount of historical context (see the shards quest and others as for why I don't), I still think nearly every quest lacks a sense of personal investment and presentation. Not enough of DA:I's quests are contextualized with personal and meaningful stakes. A quest in Witcher or Pillars will tie itself into the culture of the community right in front of you and present you with characters with deep backstories and a genuine sense of belonging in their own world–and this is important; many of DA:I's quests could be transplanted into any old fantasy setting and sill work (most quests don't break free of their base archetypal nature), but quests in these other games are often so uniquely tied to their settings that they simply wouldn't work elsewhere. These quests have conflicts that are more than "I'm missing X," they're usually nuanced stories that hold up in their own right. 
 
History is fine and dandy, but an encyclopedia entry alone isn't going to cut it. Why does this place matter now? Why am I here (not just any old adventurer)? What part of this place's history can I relate to? And again, there are so many more questions of context for so much of DA:I's world. Why are these dragons here? What are they living off of? Do these bandits seem like an actual threat to villages around them? How are these isolated rifts affecting everyday life? I never felt like these kinds of questions were answered adequately enough. 
 

I found the Witcher's quests incredibly repetitive as well, but I can divorce my opinions of the gameplay from the overall narrative structure. But I don't think you could convince me that DA:I was any less repetitive than the Witcher's. The gameplay loop was essentially: start quest, kill mooks, get item(s), return. It's just the Witcher minus the red line following (and all the good stuff I mentioned earlier). I'm not sure where you're seeing this depth and variety. The Witcher at least had a better excuse for having the repetitive structure seeing as it's just a job and all.

 
I wish DA:I's quests had unique and engaging mechanics supporting them (I think that's another area where ME:A can improve to please everyone) because that would tide me over their lackluster presentation.

 

I had the more personal quests in the companion content.  I had the contextual present quests in judgements and places like Suledin Keep.  I then also got puzzles to solve in the Astrariums, historical revelations, contextual information on how the world is faring in the face of these conflicts through realistic methods of discovery, and then the management of a massive organization through the war table.  And this is before taking in to account I create the character.  I decide what to wear, how to act, how the interior and even some exterior portions of my headquarters will look, and what my characters feelings are.  I'm not told this.  I'm not locked into just being one character that is the same thing in every run that you can ever play.

 

The more personal, intimate, and contextual content is in Inquisition.  The variety is there in Inquisition. And the breadth of roleplaying is there in Inquisition.  But then, reading how you can just drag and drop these quests into another game and they magically work is sort of telling me all I need to know about your viewpoint... if you only mean the STYLE of all these quests, then obviously. Same thing for the witcher.  You can drag and drop any Witcher sidequest into any RPG and it works (because it has been done before).  If you mean straight drag and drop, then you clearly just didn't pay attention to how these quests actually did integrate specifically into the world.  Especially considering there is more than one type of side quest in Inquisition. 

 

Your opinion on the Witcher v Inquisition quests are not fact by any stretch, no matter how many people keep screaming it.  You like it.  Good for you.  The Witcher bored me in almost everyway possible, including those repetitive quests.  The only redeeming moments from that game (and mostly franchise as a whole) was the drinking scene in Kaer Morhen, the attempt at actual complexity in the Baron questline (not really a sidequest by the way), and Gwent.   But do you find me on CDPR forums continually screaming that they need to be more like Bioware and feature puzzles, and companions in a party, and a character creation screen with a better combat system that allows for a variety of playstyles?  No... CDPR and its fans can have that franchise and enjoy it for what it is.  I will just avoid it and hope to whatever gaming gods there are that Bioware does not bow to the pressure and put out a game like The Witcher....... that would be a disaster.   

[The Hierophant]

I want to see the team expand on the depth of the sidequests in this game in relation to their significance to the lore. Being that there are new races, cultures, and histories involved. I'd like to see more quests other than the companion quests having multiple conclusions as well. I hope the team doesn't adopt DAI's minimalist approach as the receiving of information would mostly be through codices, and feel inorganic to the narrative versus Skyrim's/Pillar's/TW3's approach. I approve of TW3's approach in sidequest design. 

[slimgrin]

TW3 showed you can have a certain degree of redundancy in your design template if you go the extra mile with your narrative and C&C. I don't want to be delivering packages to random strangers on the Arc. That stuff won't fly with gamers now. 

[Kabraxal]

I want to see the team expand on the depth of the sidequests in this game in relation to their significance to the lore. Being that there are new races, cultures, and histories involved. I'd like to see more quests other than the companion quests having multiple conclusions as well. I hope the team doesn't adopt DAI's minimalist approach as the receiving of information would mostly be through codices, and feel inorganic to the narrative versus Skyrim's/Pillar's/TW3's approach. I approve of TW3's approach in sidequest design. 

 

So instead of recieiving information realistically through notes and reports from your advisors, you want what exactly?  Please tell me how more organic you can get from the war table, or finding the bodies and notes of people lying around in a dangerous world.... cutscenes where you either magically see things happen your character is not around to see?  Or maybe cutscenes where your Inquisition is always around for every event in the history of the world?  Yes... that is o so organic. 

 

And there are judgements... with different conclusions.  There are quests like Suledin Keep... with different outcomes.  There are war table missions that not only have multiple outcomes, but some even include opening/closing down a questline or actually starting a quest.  There is even a short quest of finding a confession note that has separate choices to be made.  Why are all these examples continuously ignored?  I think some here just need to admit they prefer a different stylistic approach and that all these "facts" they are spouting are simply opinions... though some of them are simply wrong as so easily shown in regards to some dubious claims in the post above. 

[Gwydden]

I want to see the team expand on the depth of the sidequests in this game in relation to their significance to the lore. Being that there are new races, cultures, and histories involved. I'd like to see more quests other than the companion quests having multiple conclusions as well. I hope the team doesn't adopt DAI's minimalist approach as the receiving of information would mostly be through codices, and feel inorganic to the narrative versus Skyrim's/Pillar's/TW3's approach. I approve of TW3's approach in sidequest design. 

TW3 showed you can have a certain degree of redundancy in your design template if you go the extra mile with your narrative and C&C. I don't want to be delivering packages to random strangers on the Arc. That stuff won't fly with gamers now. 

Guys... Kabraxal thinks The Witcher 3 is absolutely irreedemable garbage and that DAI is a masterpiece to last through the ages 

 

I've given up on debating her on this point, not because of any flaw in her character (quite the opposite), but because it is such a bizarre experience; kind of like a bad drug trip or looking at the face of the great god Pan.

[PunchFaceReporter]

And why were the fetch quest givers so ugly? It's like they pressed the randomise button and threw them into the game.

[Laughing_Man]

...a bad drug trip or looking at the face of the great god Pan.

 

Sounds interesting, tell me more...

[straykat]

Guys... Kabraxal thinks The Witcher 3 is absolutely irreedemable garbage and that DAI is a masterpiece to last through the ages 

 

I've given up on debating her on this point, not because of any flaw in her character (quite the opposite), but because it is such a bizarre experience; kind of like a bad drug trip or looking at the face of the great god Pan.

 

I was more surprised she had such a poor opinion of MGS5.. But I still like her for some reason. Like you said, no flaw in her character itself. 

 

Sorry for talking about you in the third person Kabraxal

[Laughing_Man]

I was more surprised she had such a poor opinion of MGS5..

 

With that I can agree. Maybe it's because I didn't play any of the previous ones, but IMO the game was absolutely terrible, I abandoned the game a few missions in.

 

But I'll happily concede that this is probably more related to my personal tastes than anything else.

[Elhanan]

Guys... Kabraxal thinks The Witcher 3 is absolutely irreedemable garbage and that DAI is a masterpiece to last through the ages 
 
I've given up on debating her on this point, not because of any flaw in her character (quite the opposite), but because it is such a bizarre experience; kind of like a bad drug trip or looking at the face of the great god Pan.

Why bizarre? I am not even willing to purchase it due to objectionable content and no Pause functionality. At least she played it and is basing an opinion on actual game experience.

Not all folks are willing to ride the same bandwagon, no matter how popular it may be to do so.

[straykat]

With that I can agree. Maybe it's because I didn't play any of the previous ones, but IMO the game was absolutely terrible, I abandoned the game a few missions in.

 

But I'll happily concede that this is probably more related to my personal tastes than anything else.

 

Do you like stealth games at least? I know they're not for everyone...

[PunchFaceReporter]

Do you like stealth games at least? I know they're not for everyone...

The new MGS game was the first one I ever played, couldn't really get into it though. I liked Dishonoured, looking forward to the new one.

[Laughing_Man]

Do you like stealth games at least? I know they're not for everyone...

 

Well, I liked Dishonored well enough, It's not a pure stealth game but it encourages stealth.

 

Also enjoyed the last Deus Ex game.

[Gwydden]

Sounds interesting, tell me more...

The Great God Pan is an 1894 short story by Arthur Machen, seminal in the cosmic horror genre.

 

A bad trip is, and I quote the most succinct definition I could find, "what happens when you freak out on LSD." 

 

I was more surprised she had such a poor opinion of MGS5.. But I still like her for some reason. Like you said, no flaw in her character itself. 

Not all folks are willing to ride the same bandwagon, no matter how popular it may be to do so.

It's not that she likes DAI; I know plenty of people who do and I get why. No, it's the reasons she provides for it. The specific things she liked in DAI are the exact specific things I thought were terribly handled... and for what I've gathered, she thinks they're great for the exact same reason I think they're horrible.

 

We agree on other stuff not related to RPGs, I believe, but on this point I can only say that she's mad, and I'm mad, and we're all mad here 

[straykat]

Well, I liked Dishonored well enough, It's not a pure stealth game but it encourages stealth.

 

Also enjoyed the last Deus Ex game.

 

Fair enough. They do a similar thing.. provide creativity in getting the mission done. Which is where MGS shines. Those are just more structured.

[The Hierophant]

So instead of recieiving information realistically through notes and reports from your advisors, you want what exactly?  Please tell me how more organic you can get from the war table, or finding the bodies and notes of people lying around in a dangerous world.... cutscenes where you either magically see things happen your character is not around to see?  Or maybe cutscenes where your Inquisition is always around for every event in the history of the world?  Yes... that is o so organic. 

Organic in not being an uninspired copypasted codex entry from the 'World of Thedas', or an info dump like the Astrariums with no relevance to the overarching plot or is never touched upon in the narrative, while key info is withheld from players about supposedly important characters like Cory, Selene and Briala is from outside sources. 

 

And there are judgements... with different conclusions.  There are quests like Suledin Keep... with different outcomes.  There are war table missions that not only have multiple outcomes, but some even include opening/closing down a questline or actually starting a quest.  There is even a short quest of finding a confession note that has separate choices to be made.  Why are all these examples continuously ignored?  I think some here just need to admit they prefer a different stylistic approach and that all these "facts" they are spouting are simply opinions... though some of them are simply wrong as so easily shown in regards to some dubious claims in the post above.

These examples are few and far in between amongst DAI's sidequests, and are not the norm.

[Laughing_Man]

A bad trip is, and I quote the most succinct definition I could find, "what happens when you freak out on LSD."

 

Hmm... I guess I really had a sheltered childhood...

 

Fair enough. They do a similar thing.. provide creativity in getting the mission done. Which is where MGS shines. Those are just more structured.

 

I don't think it was structure Vs. open world that turned me off.

 

Things that certainly didn't help were the wacky theme and non existent internal logic of the MGS universe, with flying fire whales in one section, and traditional military sneaky shooter the next, Quiet's... situation seemed to have been handled more awkwardly than even Miranda in ME2 and is contrived as all hell (and I'm saying that despite usually vehemently disagreeing with the SJW claptrap), menu navigation inside the game and the base management were also a complete nightmare for me.

[straykat]

Hmm... I guess I really had a sheltered childhood...

 

 

I don't think it was structure Vs. open world that turned me off.

 

Things that certainly didn't help were the wacky theme and non existent internal logic of the MGS universe, with flying fire whales in one section, and traditional military sneaky shooter shooter the next, Quiet's... situation seemed to have been handled more awkwardly than even Miranda in ME2 and is contrived as all hell (and I'm saying that despite usually vehemently disagreeing with the SJW claptrap), menu navigation inside the game and the base management were also a complete nightmare for me.

 

It's definitely wacky, I'll give you that. Have you played his other games?

[Laughing_Man]

It's definitely wacky, I'll give you that. Have you played his other games?

 

No, maybe part of the reason I didn't like it.

[The Hierophant]

No, maybe part of the reason I didn't like it.

MGS1-3 were actually good but then it went downhill from there.

 

[straykat]

No, maybe part of the reason I didn't like it.

 

I can't blame you. If it wasn't so dated now, I'd say to start with MGS 1 or 2.. Ease yourself into it.

 

But whatever. I like Deus Ex as well.

[Laughing_Man]

I like Deus Ex as well.

 

Yup, and I can appreciate them trying to build on the success of the previous game with the new one, rather than trying to reinvent the franchise with each game like, say, Bioware. Hopefully "Mankind divided" will have interesting story and fun mechanics.