429 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

What?! I live for fetch quests! How else would I have found all those mosiac pieces.

Dunno, but since Mosaics are not any part of any Fetch quest, but rather fall into Collections, guess that call is on you....

[Gwydden]

This may seem random, but I think it might explain why some people liked DAI and why some of us... didn't so much. Taken from here, but the relevant part is that someone asked what makes Bethesda games appealing to some people. A poster provided this story as an explanation:

 

Spoiler

Once, I was playing the Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, and I encountered a Unicorn being attacked by three Minotaurs. I decided to save it but in the fury of a fight I had no business being in, I accidentally struck the Unicorn. The Unicorn then turned on me, and was slain by the Minotaurs. I quickly looted its horn and fled, for I was no match for three Minotaurs.

 

I fled on my horse to the nearby town Bravil in the hopes of finding shelter. I entered a cabin just outside of the town in hopes of hiding, but the Minotaurs found me. They began attacking me and the inhabitant of the cabin, which I believe was the stable master's house, and I had to jump all over the place to squeeze by and activate the door. I crossed a narrow wooden bridge that led to the main gates of Bravil, in the hopes that the guards would help me. As it turns out, I was now wanted, apparently for getting the stable master attacked by Minotaurs. He was probably dead by now. So I turned around and left immediately, guards in tow. My horse was stuck on the bridge now, with Minotaurs blocking it and guards coming behind me.

 

Left with no other choice, I leapt from the bridge into the water below. My horse was killed by the Minotaurs, and the guards now started attacking them instead of me. It appeared that a brown bear and spriggin also joined the battle at some point. I fought and killed the spriggin, but tith only three or four guards battling, and also trying to kill me, I decided to take shelter in the cabin again and wait it out. As soon as I enter, my entire screen is filled by a Minotaur, standing over the corpse of the stable master. I of course turned around immediately.

 

Now outside again, with the spriggin shooting at me and the guards getting pwned by the Minotaurs and bear, and the third Minotaur now exiting the cabin behind me, I was left no choice but the flee west on the road. Fortunately, the guards had taken two Minotaurs with them, so now I was only being chased by a Minotaur and a bear. I could not fight them alone, so I attempted to seek whatever help I could.

 

Unfortunately, the help that I found on the road was an ambush by three bandits and later a wolf. I just ran past them, desperate for aid. I found some sort of tavern, which unfortunately was being camped by a wisp, a very deadly spirit. There was a man outside practicing archery, and he helped me fight the wisp, but was slain, so I ran inside the Tavern and healed myself. Soon after, the entire cadre of enemies following me came inside. A massive melee of bandits and monsters vs peasants ensued. Everyone was quickly slain, but the it was sort of a free for all, and the bandits were dealt with. I believe the wisp also entered, which I finished off.

 

Now there were only two left: the Minotaur, and some sort of badass warrior. He was going toe-to-toe with the Minotaur. I engaged in battle, and together we slew the monster. It turns out he was some sort of high level martial trainer, so naturally he was able to hold his own. I went outside and found nothing further pursuing me. Despite a massive loss in potions and a huge bounty, I decided to save over my previous saves, because that had to have happened. I couldn't allow such an epic adventure to disappear.

 

This is why people like Bethesda games.

 

TL; DR: The guy was playing Skyrim and got tangled up in a massive free for all battle as NPCs started attacking each other because he drew them together.

 

Now, someone answered this:

 

Spoiler

You can tell that all as a story, but when I'm playing it, all I see is "randomly scattered NPC enemies are attacking each other due to their overlapping AI awareness, they'll aggro me if I hit them, their animations are all **** during this process, their fight looks stupid."

 

Not to mention, such a scenario is 1 in 100 in the games.

 

Essentially, all I see when people get excited over this kind of gameplay is the same sort of thing happening when a kid plays with action figures. The majority of the "narrative" that is within the experience is being added by the player's imagination. The game is doing little on its own. It's just a bunch of bad AI spamming lame looking attacks at each other because they happen to be in the same area.

 

And someone else added this:

Spoiler

I think this difference in attitude is the entire crux of whether people love or hate the Bethesda games. If your imagination fills in the blanks and smooths over the gameyness of it all then you encounter immersive, emergent gameplay moments that stick with you.

 

I agree with you though. The jankyness of Bethesda games breaks any sense of immersion for me. The world is populated by identical dumb AI characters spouting the same lines. The dungeons/vaults are full of identical draugr/bandits. The combat is a flail button wih no depth or complexity. There's no worthwhile overall storyline or characters to make me care about anything happening. In the end it just feels like a giant, shallow sandbox to **** around in rather than a real place.

 

It's a similar thing to what happens when people talk about EVE. The stories that come out sound incredible when people recount them, but when I jump in game it just doesn't fundamentally interest me.

 

So I'm thinking that some people that like the game and think the sidequests were amazing were simply imagining stuff that wasn't there and giving the game credit for it. One could accuse me and people like me of lacking imagination or not wanting to use it, but the thing is that I take pride in that quality and use it almost constantly when writing my own stuff and playing PnP games. I do not need nor want video games as an outlet for stuff I myself came up with, and in fact I feel skeptical and downright insulted every time developers expect you to fill in major parts of their game by making stuff up. It's just an excuse for lazyness and blandness. Why on earth should I do their job for them?

 

It's like if a movie out of nowhere cut to black and showed a bunch of text saying "now in this part there's supposed to be a very profound and interesting dialogue that showcases the complex personalities and motivations of the main characters. We couldn't be bothered to actually write any of that down (whether for lack of skill or lack of will we won't say, of course) so could you please just imagine it? As a replacement, here you have some slapstick humor we got together at the last minute. Enjoy!"

[straykat]

This may seem random, but I think it might explain why some people liked DAI and why some of us... didn't so much. Taken from here, but the relevant part is that someone asked what makes Bethesda games appealing to some people. A poster provided this story as an explanation:

 

Spoiler

Once, I was playing the Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, and I encountered a Unicorn being attacked by three Minotaurs. I decided to save it but in the fury of a fight I had no business being in, I accidentally struck the Unicorn. The Unicorn then turned on me, and was slain by the Minotaurs. I quickly looted its horn and fled, for I was no match for three Minotaurs.

 

I fled on my horse to the nearby town Bravil in the hopes of finding shelter. I entered a cabin just outside of the town in hopes of hiding, but the Minotaurs found me. They began attacking me and the inhabitant of the cabin, which I believe was the stable master's house, and I had to jump all over the place to squeeze by and activate the door. I crossed a narrow wooden bridge that led to the main gates of Bravil, in the hopes that the guards would help me. As it turns out, I was now wanted, apparently for getting the stable master attacked by Minotaurs. He was probably dead by now. So I turned around and left immediately, guards in tow. My horse was stuck on the bridge now, with Minotaurs blocking it and guards coming behind me.

 

Left with no other choice, I leapt from the bridge into the water below. My horse was killed by the Minotaurs, and the guards now started attacking them instead of me. It appeared that a brown bear and spriggin also joined the battle at some point. I fought and killed the spriggin, but tith only three or four guards battling, and also trying to kill me, I decided to take shelter in the cabin again and wait it out. As soon as I enter, my entire screen is filled by a Minotaur, standing over the corpse of the stable master. I of course turned around immediately.

 

Now outside again, with the spriggin shooting at me and the guards getting pwned by the Minotaurs and bear, and the third Minotaur now exiting the cabin behind me, I was left no choice but the flee west on the road. Fortunately, the guards had taken two Minotaurs with them, so now I was only being chased by a Minotaur and a bear. I could not fight them alone, so I attempted to seek whatever help I could.

 

Unfortunately, the help that I found on the road was an ambush by three bandits and later a wolf. I just ran past them, desperate for aid. I found some sort of tavern, which unfortunately was being camped by a wisp, a very deadly spirit. There was a man outside practicing archery, and he helped me fight the wisp, but was slain, so I ran inside the Tavern and healed myself. Soon after, the entire cadre of enemies following me came inside. A massive melee of bandits and monsters vs peasants ensued. Everyone was quickly slain, but the it was sort of a free for all, and the bandits were dealt with. I believe the wisp also entered, which I finished off.

 

Now there were only two left: the Minotaur, and some sort of badass warrior. He was going toe-to-toe with the Minotaur. I engaged in battle, and together we slew the monster. It turns out he was some sort of high level martial trainer, so naturally he was able to hold his own. I went outside and found nothing further pursuing me. Despite a massive loss in potions and a huge bounty, I decided to save over my previous saves, because that had to have happened. I couldn't allow such an epic adventure to disappear.

 

This is why people like Bethesda games.

 

TL; DR: The guy was playing Skyrim and got tangled up in a massive free for all battle as NPCs started attacking each other because he drew them together.

 

Now, someone answered this:

 

Spoiler

You can tell that all as a story, but when I'm playing it, all I see is "randomly scattered NPC enemies are attacking each other due to their overlapping AI awareness, they'll aggro me if I hit them, their animations are all **** during this process, their fight looks stupid."

 

Not to mention, such a scenario is 1 in 100 in the games.

 

Essentially, all I see when people get excited over this kind of gameplay is the same sort of thing happening when a kid plays with action figures. The majority of the "narrative" that is within the experience is being added by the player's imagination. The game is doing little on its own. It's just a bunch of bad AI spamming lame looking attacks at each other because they happen to be in the same area.

 

And someone else added this:

Spoiler

I think this difference in attitude is the entire crux of whether people love or hate the Bethesda games. If your imagination fills in the blanks and smooths over the gameyness of it all then you encounter immersive, emergent gameplay moments that stick with you.

 

I agree with you though. The jankyness of Bethesda games breaks any sense of immersion for me. The world is populated by identical dumb AI characters spouting the same lines. The dungeons/vaults are full of identical draugr/bandits. The combat is a flail button wih no depth or complexity. There's no worthwhile overall storyline or characters to make me care about anything happening. In the end it just feels like a giant, shallow sandbox to **** around in rather than a real place.

 

It's a similar thing to what happens when people talk about EVE. The stories that come out sound incredible when people recount them, but when I jump in game it just doesn't fundamentally interest me.

 

So I'm thinking that some people that like the game and think the sidequests were amazing were simply imagining stuff that wasn't there and giving the game credit for it. One could accuse me and people like me of lacking imagination or not wanting to use it, but the thing is that I take pride in that quality and use it almost constantly when writing my own stuff and playing PnP games. I do not need nor want video games as an outlet for stuff I myself came up with, and in fact I feel skeptical and downright insulted every time developers expect you to fill in major parts of their game by making stuff up. It's just an excuse for lazyness and blandness. Why on earth should I do their job for them?

 

It's like if a movie out of nowhere cut to black and showed a bunch of text saying "now in this part there's supposed to be a very profound and interesting dialogue that showcases the complex personalities and motivations of the main characters. We couldn't be bothered to actually write any of that down (whether for lack of skill or lack of will we won't say, of course) so could you please just imagine it? As a replacement, here you have some slapstick humor we got together at the last minute. Enjoy!"

 

It's fair to give credit to the game. It's summed up as emergence.. where insignificant features add up and behave in unexpected ways. It can come in many forms (or limited forms.. like parts of MGS5). DAI is open, but not emergent. This is why I'd compare it more to Ubi's stuff. 

 

It's the same reason I like Rockstar (compared to many GTA clones), but to a lesser extent.

[Elhanan]

No; for myself, I wish to choose my path: race, gender, class, CC, dialogue, quests, etc. As a rule, the more freedom to do this, the better the experience. Plus, it adds to replay value, and helps make each campaign unique from the others. DAI offers more of this, for which I am grateful. I do not accept the straw man premise no matter how well dressed it may be.

DAI has fewer cut-scenes depicting every minor encounter, less auto-dialogue, fewer auto-decisions, and avoids missteps encountered in the previous titles. It allows for RP; not sitting and watching a predetermined character in a mass amount of mini-films apparently filled with On the Rails conversations, and just a couple of dialogue choices.

As for Fetch quests, I prefer the ones with impact and connection, and can live with less of the non-essential objects. Close-up views with the camera are fine; cut-scenes, not so much.

[The Hierophant]

The cutscene argument is weird because it implies that dialogue exchanges are non interactive like Final Fantasy's movie sequences.

[straykat]

No; for myself, I wish to choose my path: race, gender, class, CC, dialogue, quests, etc. As a rule, the more freedom to do this, the better the experience. Plus, it adds to replay value, and helps make each campaign unique from the others. DAI offers more of this, for which I am grateful. I do not accept the straw man premise no matter how well dressed it may be.

DAI has fewer cut-scenes depicting every minor encounter, less auto-dialogue, fewer auto-decisions, and avoids missteps encountered in the previous titles. It allows for RP; not sitting and watching a predetermined character in a mass amount of mini-films apparently filled with On the Rails conversations, and just a couple of dialogue choices.

As for Fetch quests, I prefer the ones with impact and connection, and can live with less of the non-essential objects. Close-up views with the camera are fine; cut-scenes, not so much.

 

DAI is more limiting than DAO. You're even more pigeonholed with the origin backgrounds. And it's a far cry from TES (or just RPG tradition in general) even moreso.

 

I like open-ness too, but there's no need to deceive myself here. There are better games to praise for this.

[straykat]

The cutscene argument is weird because it implies that dialogue exchanges are non interactive like Final Fantasy's movie sequences.

 

It's not just weird. It's self-deceptive and superficial. Like a game mechanic suddenly changes because you moved a camera angle. No.

[Elhanan]

DAI is more limiting than DAO. You're even more pigeonholed with the origin backgrounds. And it's a far cry from TES (or just RPG tradition in general) even moreso.
 
I like open-ness too, but there's no need to deceive myself here. There are better games to praise for this.

DAO is the better experience; agreed. And I do prefer the freedom to bear armor and weapons for any class.

That said, DAI has weapon and armor crafting, so one does not have to take the same gear each campaign. DAI has more dialogue choices, and removes the Gift tailoring and possible linear conversation choices needed to progress with some Companions (eg; DAA). The Spells, Talents, Skills, and abilities are not locked into a four tier selection; more freedom for design. One does not have to hear the same shop banter each time before trading; something that some newer games appear to repeat.

DAI is still a better experience than many titles. Better to play a RPG than watching some film fest.

[The Hierophant]

It's not just weird. It's self-deceptive and superficial. Like a game mechanic suddenly changes because you moved a camera angle. No.

This. The only difference between TES, TW, ME and DA was the camera angle. Admittedly i was initially interested in DAI's free camera, but it was limited by it's lack of a zoom/expand feature, and free roaming vertical/horizontal angles.

[Sartoz]

                                                                                   <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>>

 

Bio's action titles seem to move towards a more cinematic experience than old style RPG mechanics.  This trend necessitates a change   and why we see more cut scenes.

 

 A cinematic type game needs to adopt a different mechanic for leveling up purposes. Experience Points can be granted by means other than stupid fetch quests that have nothing to do with the main story arc. These are just time sinks that permit the developer to brag about their 90 hour game.

 

Role playing has everything to do with your decisions and their rippling effects on the world. How you interact, which quest you complete or refuse and its impact on the world. Unfortunately, the main world is static with key points that allow you to move forward.  I prefer a "living" world where things go on and you can impact it as you move in it and interact with it.

[Elhanan]

<<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>>
 
Bio's action titles seem to move towards a more cinematic experience than old style RPG mechanics.  This trend necessitates a change   and why we see more cut scenes.
 
 A cinematic type game needs to adopt a different mechanic for leveling up purposes. Experience Points can be granted by means other than stupid fetch quests that have nothing to do with the main story arc. These are just time sinks that permit the developer to brag about their 90 hour game.
 
Role playing has everything to do with your decisions and their rippling effects on the world. How you interact, which quest you complete or refuse and its impact on the world. Unfortunately, the main world is static with key points that allow you to move forward.  I prefer a "living" world where things go on and you can impact it as you move in it and interact with it.

Reason I like DAI and skip TW3. My choices matter, as opposed to ones written in a book, delivered in a cut-scene, etc.

The unimportant quests can be eliminated; adding unwanted cinematics to them does not make them less dreary. Hope to see more like DAI and less like ME2 and ME3.

[SofaJockey]

Reason I like DAI and skip TW3. My choices matter, as opposed to ones written in a book, delivered in a cut-scene, etc.

 

As you skipped TW3 you don't realise how inaccurate your ignorant criticism of TW3 is.

I loved and rate DAI, but I accept TW3 as the better game and also one where my choices mattered more (as well as having many better fetch quests).

[Elhanan]

As you skipped TW3 you don't realise how inaccurate your ignorant criticism of TW3 is.
I loved and rate DAI, but I accept TW3 as the better game and also one where my choices mattered more (as well as having many better fetch quests).

My criticism and opinion may differ than yours and others, but it is based upon info taken from the game. Folks love a lot of stuff I do not care for; does not make it or them better, correct, or right.

And TW3 can keep the cut-scene Fetch quests; no need for them in the ME or DA series.

[vnth]

My criticism and opinion may differ than yours and others, but it is based upon info taken from the game. Folks love a lot of stuff I do not care for; does not make it or them better, correct, or right.

And TW3 can keep the cut-scene Fetch quests; no need for them in the ME or DA series.

this person is amazing. while it is clear that you havent played w3 (and the fact that you keep talking about it as if you do continues to fascinate me), any person who has only watch the trailers or demo videos can tell that you are not even remotely correct on what you think w3 is. finally, and i dont know how many times i have to say this, taste isnt the same as accuracy. not enjoying a superior product like w3 is anyone's prerogative. not seeing that it is superior is ignorance.

[Cyonan]

So I'm thinking that some people that like the game and think the sidequests were amazing were simply imagining stuff that wasn't there and giving the game credit for it. One could accuse me and people like me of lacking imagination or not wanting to use it, but the thing is that I take pride in that quality and use it almost constantly when writing my own stuff and playing PnP games. I do not need nor want video games as an outlet for stuff I myself came up with, and in fact I feel skeptical and downright insulted every time developers expect you to fill in major parts of their game by making stuff up. It's just an excuse for lazyness and blandness. Why on earth should I do their job for them?

 

It's like if a movie out of nowhere cut to black and showed a bunch of text saying "now in this part there's supposed to be a very profound and interesting dialogue that showcases the complex personalities and motivations of the main characters. We couldn't be bothered to actually write any of that down (whether for lack of skill or lack of will we won't say, of course) so could you please just imagine it? As a replacement, here you have some slapstick humor we got together at the last minute. Enjoy!"

 

but the story didn't actually rely on imagination to tell it. It was for the most part a factual retelling of what happened in that player's game.

 

Sure it was drawn out into a fairly lengthy story that ultimately came down to "Drew a bunch of different NPCs into one big fight as I ran around trying to stay alive" but the person didn't imagine anything nor did they attempt to make up any big narrative for why the things that happened were happening.

 

It's funny that people are trashing Oblivion over this because the story is just a hectic random encounter. DA:I doesn't tell you any narrative every time you get into a fight with some rogue Templars or Mages in the Hinterlands, so I guess it demands that I imagine everything as well by this logic.

 

Oblivion actually has a narrative that it tells you, just not one that it puts a ton of focus into. It would rather focus on creating a vast world where crazy unscripted things can happen. That's what Bethesda wants to do while BioWare wants to create a vast world with a big epic narrative as the main focus.

 

Both games require equally as much or as little imagination as you want to put into RPing a character.

[Cyonan]

My criticism and opinion may differ than yours and others, but it is based upon info taken from the game. Folks love a lot of stuff I do not care for; does not make it or them better, correct, or right.

And TW3 can keep the cut-scene Fetch quests; no need for them in the ME or DA series.

 

Well you said that choices don't matter outside of a book or cutscene in TW3.

 

Which isn't your opinion. It's objectively wrong, and you would know that if you had played the game.

[Elhanan]

this person is amazing. while it is clear that you havent played w3 (and the fact that you keep talking about it as if you do continues to fascinate me), any person who has only watch the trailers or demo videos can tell that you are not even remotely correct on what you think w3 is. finally, and i dont know how many times i have to say this, taste isnt the same as accuracy. not enjoying a superior product like w3 is anyone's prerogative. not seeing that it is superior is ignorance.

Never have claimed to have played it; fact is most folks already know that I kept my cash for better things. But those trailer, vids, and other source materials were plenty to provide the info needed to make an informed choice.

Nothing too amazing at all; simply able to discern that opinion =/= fact.

[vnth]

Never have claimed to have played it; fact is most folks already know that I kept my cash for better things. But those trailer, vids, and other source materials were plenty to provide the info needed to make an informed choice.

Nothing too amazing at all; simply able to discern that opinion =/= fact.

yeah they sort of do do they? and somehow you watched them wrong. probably any of them could have invalidate all of your claims. as i said, amazing.

 

taste =/= accuracy.

[Elhanan]

Well you said that choices don't matter outside of a book or cutscene in TW3.
 
Which isn't your opinion. It's objectively wrong, and you would know that if you had played the game.

From what I can see, Geralt is a set PC; no gender, race, or CC options. Dialogue has fewer options than the DA games, and some choices are made by the cut-scenes; not the Players. The game looks beautiful, but can make some Players queasy looking thru that Fishbowl lens at the frequently changing weather system indicating gale force winds one moment; bright sunny day the next.

Not wrong or incorrect; may simply be looking at other published material than others may be seeing, but it is present. Pass.

[Cyonan]

From what I can see, Geralt is a set PC; no gender, race, or CC options. Dialogue has fewer options than the DA games, and some choices are made by the cut-scenes; not the Players. The game looks beautiful, but can make some Players queasy looking thru that Fishbowl lens at the frequently changing weather system indicating gale force winds one moment; bright sunny day the next.

Not wrong or incorrect; may simply be looking at other published material than others may be seeing, but it is present. Pass.

 

I'm not saying you should rush out to try the game or hail it as the greatest thing of all time.

 

I'm pointing out that you saying there is no meaningful C&C is an objectively incorrect fact, because the game has that.

[Elhanan]

I'm not saying you should rush out to try the game or hail it as the greatest thing of all time.
 
I'm pointing out that you saying there is no meaningful C&C is an objectively incorrect fact, because the game has that.

Customized content; Yes, but not so much on Geralt other than hair. Still stuck with same gender, race, look, and voice.

Will give credit for being easier to mod and the QA patching, but still has too much objectionable content for me.

[Cyonan]

Customized content; Yes, but not so much on Geralt other than hair. Still stuck with same gender, race, look, and voice.

Will give credit for being easier to mod and the QA patching, but still has too much objectionable content for me.

 

C&C = choice and consequence.

 

Your exact line was "Reason I like DAI and skip TW3. My choices matter, as opposed to ones written in a book, delivered in a cut-scene, etc."

 

I'm saying that your assessment of TW3 in that very specific regard is false because your choices do matter in that game.

 

Going on about things not related to this in the slightest doesn't actually change my point. It's just you either avoiding the fact or horribly misunderstanding what I'm saying here.

[Elhanan]

C&C = choice and consequence.
 
Your exact line was "Reason I like DAI and skip TW3. My choices matter, as opposed to ones written in a book, delivered in a cut-scene, etc."
 
I'm saying that your assessment of TW3 in that very specific regard is false because your choices do matter in that game.
 
Going on about things not related to this in the slightest doesn't actually change my point. It's just you either avoiding the fact or horribly misunderstanding what I'm saying here.

While some choices are made by the player, many others are made by the game. This is truth.

[Cyonan]

While some choices are made by the player, many others are made by the game. This is truth.

 

This is also truth of DA:I.

 

What's your point?

[Elhanan]

This is also truth of DA:I.
 
What's your point?

More cut-scenes and auto-choices for TW3.