1624 réponses à ce sujet

[BabyPuncher]

Explaining the reaper threat is like rewriting the ending to Jurassic Park to explain a motivation for why dinosaurs are trying to eat us. Not only is it ridiculous and nonsensical, it's not even necessary because we don't care why they're doing it. They are dinosaurs and they eat people. That's all the story needs.

 

The Reapers are exactly the same. They are reapers and they periodically exterminate organic life. Our struggle against them is the story. We don't need to understand them, and if they operate on a whole other level of consciousness, we probably can't anyway.

 

That's a stupid analogy. First of all, dinosaurs have an obvious motivation. They're dinosaurs. As you said, they're aggresive animals who eat people. That's not an unknown motivation at all. It's perfectly well known motivation.

 

Secondly, and more importantly, the story goes absolutely out of its way to establish a very specific pattern that indicates the Reapers are doing this for an important reason. It goes absolutely out of its way to get the player to be intrigued by them and wonder why. You're completely wrong. Players absolutely care why the Reapers are doing it. You're going to try and claim there wasn't a great deal of discussion of the Reapers' motives before ME 3 came out?

[Sion1138]

That's a stupid analogy. First of all, dinosaurs have an obvious motivation. They're dinosaurs. As you said, they're aggresive animals who eat people. That's not an unknown motivation at all. It's perfectly well known motivation.

 

Secondly, and more importantly, the story goes absolutely out of its way to establish a very specific pattern that indicates the Reapers are doing this for an important reason. It goes absolutely out of its way to get the player to be intrigued by them and wonder why. You're completely wrong. Players absolutely care why the Reapers are doing it. You're going to try and claim there wasn't a great deal of discussion of the Reapers' motives before ME 3 came out?

 

So? Whether you care or not shouldn't be a factor.

 

That basically means they're writing the story based on what you want and I see a lot of people here are ill-disposed toward that idea.

 

The point of the analogy is, first, you don't care about why exactly a dinosaur wants to eat you when it's in your face and second, as you said, it's simply in their nature.

 

Now, the nature of a billion year old super-intelligence, hive-mind of an entire civilization would be such that you simply could not grasp it. A Reaper's brain is several orders of magnitude times larger than yours, there's nothing for you there.

 

All the story needs is that, the rest of it, the bulk of it in fact is told through how the characters react to it.

 

To surmise, what they do is in their nature and you don't have the capacity to understand that nature.

 

You should not even ask.

[pdusen]

That's a stupid analogy. First of all, dinosaurs have an obvious motivation. They're dinosaurs. As you said, they're aggresive animals who eat people. 

 

And reapers are monstrous living machines that reap organic life. See what I did there?

 

Secondly, and more importantly, the story goes absolutely out of its way to establish a very specific pattern that indicates the Reapers are doing this for an important reason. It goes absolutely out of its way to get the player to be intrigued by them and wonder why. You're completely wrong. Players absolutely care why the Reapers are doing it. You're going to try and claim there wasn't a great deal of discussion of the Reapers' motives before ME 3 came out?

 

 

Nope, I don't claim that at all. It's a big mystery and it's very interesting. That doesn't make it the central focus of the story. This isn't Soylent Green ("What is the secret of Soylent Green?"). The focus of the story is emphatically stated many times as beating the reapers, not learning their motivation.

 

It's a very interesting side-mystery. The fact that people wonder about it doesn't demand that it be answered. Side-mysteries go unanswered in good stories all the time.

 

 

The point of the analogy is, first, you don't care about why exactly a dinosaur wants to eat you when it's in your face and second, as you said, it's simply in their nature.

 

Now, the nature of a billion year old super-intelligence, hive-mind of an entire civilization would be such that you simply could not grasp it. A Reaper's brain is several orders of magnitude times larger than yours, there's nothing for you there.

 

All the story needs is that, the rest of it, the bulk of it in fact is told through how the characters react to it.

 

Bingo.

[goishen]

Ehhh, not for me.   If I had some generic third person shooter and we had absolutely no clue about why they were doing what they were doing, I'll pass.

 

I have got to find a reason to care.   If that's not there, then count me out, color me gone.  It was the humanization (agreed though, starkly absurd) of the reapers and their morals that did it.  Also, it was all the suspense leading up to that realization.

[pdusen]

Ehhh, not for me.   If I had some generic third person shooter and we had absolutely no clue about why they were doing what they were doing, I'll pass.
 
I have got to find a reason to care.   If that's not there, then count me out, color me gone.  It was the humanization (agreed though, starkly absurd) of the reapers and their morals that did it.  Also, it was all the suspense leading up to that realization.

...but that clearly isn't true, since we didn't have any explanation until the last 5 minutes of the 3rd game. Since you got that far, the lack of knowledge of the reapers' motivation couldn't have been that big of a problem.

[In Exile]

Ehhh, not for me.   If I had some generic third person shooter and we had absolutely no clue about why they were doing what they were doing, I'll pass.

 

I have got to find a reason to care.   If that's not there, then count me out, color me gone.  It was the humanization (agreed though, starkly absurd) of the reapers and their morals that did it.  Also, it was all the suspense leading up to that realization.

 

Did you hate ME1 for not explaining it? Or ME2? Because Bioware strung that out for two games. 

[goishen]

Yes, it is true. 

 

From the very first word that Sovereign spoke to the very last word that the Rannoch reaper (or Leviathan, depending on which you played last) spoke, they were dropping hints.  And the catalyst, all he was there to do was to boil it down simply to one word.   Chaos.

[dreamgazer]

Did you hate ME1 for not explaining it? Or ME2? Because Bioware strung that out for two games.

I didn't hate them, clearly, but I was tapping my fingers in anticipation of an answer. Especially after the inane Space Terminator in ME2.

[In Exile]

Yes, it is true. 

 

From the very first word that Sovereign spoke to the very last word that the Rannoch reaper (or Leviathan, depending on which you played last) spoke, they were dropping hints.  And the catalyst, all he was there to do was to boil it down simply to one word.   Chaos.

 

The hints were incomprehensible gibberish. It's the equivalent of saying "We impose coherence on the disorder of organic thought" or "We impose structure on the alembic of individuality" or any other word salad version of purpose. 

[Ahriman]

Did you hate ME1 for not explaining it? Or ME2? Because Bioware strung that out for two games. 

But there was promise of the answer. Search for answers was main part of the plot after all.

Saying "there are evil guys who try to kill us, let's kill them back" is Doom level of writing. Did you enjoy it's plot?

[Sion1138]

But there was promise of the answer. Search for answers was main part of the plot after all.

Saying "there are evil guys who try to kill us, let's kill them back" is Doom level of writing. Did you enjoy it's plot?

 

Sometimes in life, you search for answers in vain.

 

It depends on how it's presented.

[pdusen]

But there was promise of the answer. Search for answers was main part of the plot after all.

 

No, the main part of the plot--in all 3 games--was gathering allies and building up power to stop X (Saren, The Collecters, and the Reapers, respectively). Solving the mystery of the Reapers' origins was not the goal and nobody in any of the games acted as though it was (with the possible exception of the Illusive man, who was on a quest for ways to control them.)

 

Saying "there are evil guys who try to kill us, let's kill them back" is Doom level of writing. Did you enjoy it's plot?

 

Except you can basically boil almost every goal-oriented plot down to something that simplistic, so that's not much of a criticism.

[Ahriman]

No, the main part of the plot--in all 3 games--was gathering allies and building up power to stop X (Saren, The Collecters, and the Reapers, respectively). Solving the mystery of the Reapers' origins was not the goal and nobody in any of the games acted as though it was (with the possible exception of the Illusive man, who was on a quest for ways to control them.)

Except it wasn't.

I'd like to watch how far you'd get into story if on questions like "What is this giant cuttlefish? What are they looking for? What do they need on Citadel?" you'd be getting answer "Just kill them, lol".

[pdusen]

Except it wasn't.

I'd like to watch how far you'd get into story if on questions like "What is this giant cuttlefish? What are they looking for? What do they need on Citadel?" you'd be getting answer "Just kill them, lol".

 

It would probably help me understand your argument if you could explain how it relates to my point.

[Ahriman]

It would probably help me understand your argument if you could explain how it relates to my point.

Your point about gathering armies? Fine.

In ME1 we search for Beacons and Cipher to understand Shepard's visions, we learn about Ilos and Saren's plans in order to stop him. ME1 is not about "gathering allies and building up power" in the slightest.

In ME2 we investigate who abducts colonists and how to stop them as well as getting team.

In ME3 we start with search for way to stop Reapers and then we try to find out what Crucible is and how to use it, as well as gathering army.

[pdusen]

Your point about gathering armies? Fine.

 

Ah, there's the problem. I never said anything about gathering armies. I said gathering allies, which we did in all 3 games.

 

And that also wasn't my point. My actual point was that discovering the origin of the reapers was, at best, a sidequest next to the actual point of the games. Therefore it didn't demand an answer, and since such an answer could only serve to harm the story, trying to come up with one was a mistake.

[In Exile]

But there was promise of the answer. Search for answers was main part of the plot after all.

Saying "there are evil guys who try to kill us, let's kill them back" is Doom level of writing. Did you enjoy it's plot?

 

What? No it wasn't. We spent absolutely no part of the ME1 plot understanding the reapers. We straight up got told by Vigil to not care about their motives. Same with ME2, though in that game Bioware actually tried to hint at the motives of the reaping until their endgame reveal (I guess to make more reapers). But you weren't investigating them. 

[Torgette]

The more I think about it the more I want them to make ME:A a space western. 

[The Red Shadow]

Well think of the wild west. It was around the time The Immigrants began Spreading Beyond the original settlements and Colonizing more of the US as we know it today.

And concidering Bioware, they wont make it a Default Cowboy Bebop. they will make it where a Origin story of the PC makes it a Space Western only with that Origin story. But I can garuntee it will have a Colonization feel of what it might have been like in the western... only with Aliens and High tech Guns...

NOT like Cowboys and ALiens... 

[animedreamer]

since this game isn't coming out until holiday 2016 isn't it kind of early for them to be showing even a teaser trailer?

[The Red Shadow]

Its not even that, Sure there are slight hints. But this was more or less Showing what they WANT it to look like. ALl and all it was more of a Reveal than a teaser As that it didnt tease any sort of Plot or What ever. 

[Paridave]

since this game isn't coming out until holiday 2016 isn't it kind of early for them to be showing even a teaser trailer?

When you consider how many people felt burned by the ME3 ending and swore off Bioware forever, this is a good idea.  The reveal that the game will now take place in Andromeda was also smart, it gives the fans in these forums a chance to thrash out their feelings before marketing hype kicks into gear.  They're going to be at Comicon in a couple of weeks so I would expect them to dribble out a little more info.

[dreamgazer]

When you consider how many people felt burned by the ME3 ending and swore off Bioware forever, this is a good idea.

Bah. People have been "swearing off" BioWare for one reason or another for the better part of a decade, at least.

[CronoDragoon]

I was anticipating the Why ever since ME2 brought up the How. Why would it matter how Reapers are made unless we were going to delve into the reason all this was being done? If you want to make the Reapers a mystery, then I can get on board with that. But once you start trying to solve that mystery, I'm going to expect the plot thread to end up somewhere other than a shoulder shrug.

 

My personal preference would be to roll with the Leviathan background, except drop the Catalyst and really focus on the Leviathan's fatal flaw. The Leviathans made the Reapers because they believed they could get AI right after their vassal races kept failing and getting owned. They made Harbinger and the other cuttlefish, they rebelled. Being made in the image of the Leviathans, the Reapers believe they are organic life perfected (being immortal versions of history's apex species) and start developing cycles to keep ascending races and adding to their perfect existence. There, I've tied in Sovereign's disdain for organics with Harbinger's ascension spiel and the Leviathan backstory, and all without the Catalyst.

[Sion1138]

I was anticipating the Why ever since ME2 brought up the How. Why would it matter how Reapers are made unless we were going to delve into the reason all this was being done? If you want to make the Reapers a mystery, then I can get on board with that. But once you start trying to solve that mystery, I'm going to expect the plot thread to end up somewhere other than a shoulder shrug.

 

My personal preference would be to roll with the Leviathan background, except drop the Catalyst and really focus on the Leviathan's fatal flaw. The Leviathans made the Reapers because they believed they could get AI right after their vassal races kept failing and getting owned. They made Harbinger and the other cuttlefish, they rebelled. Being made in the image of the Leviathans, the Reapers believe they are organic life perfected (being immortal versions of history's apex species) and start developing cycles to keep ascending races and adding to their perfect existence. There, I've tied in Sovereign's disdain for organics with Harbinger's ascension spiel and the Leviathan backstory, and all without the Catalyst.

 

But there can be value in the search for the truth itself and there can be value in the failure to find it.

 

It all depends on how it's presented and whether the writer can make it more than just a 'shoulder shrug'. 

 

There's no dichotomy.

 

Again, it can be done and it has been done before.