1624 réponses à ce sujet

[Torgette]

This is going to sound stupid, and I'm probably depraved and the only one of my kind, but...

 

As much as I liked the trailer, especially the world designs, the warp speed travel and the Mako, it wasn't until the very last second that I got that Mass Effect tingle that I used to get listening to the music on the menu screen from Mass Effect 1. One single synth note when the character was standing there in his armour next to the title. It just said to me, "ssssssspace opera. Agaaaain with teh......exploring of teh sssssspace 'n stuff".

 

Whispered it really.  Like right in my ear and whatnot. And then I was having teh excite

 

That would be Vigil. 

[AlanC9]

The Catalyst is 100% tell. The last scene of the game is nothing but Shepard getting lectured. However the biggest problem of all with the ending is that the series never showed us that the catalyst is correct in its premise. In fact, it showed us the opposite. Yet despite what we've seen, we are told "this is how it is and here are your options."

I'd go further. Given the way the Stargazer scene plays out, the game come close to establishing that the Catalyst's premise is outright wrong. Picture an alternative Stargazer scene where two AIs are praising Shepard for his wisdom and selflessness in allowing evolution to reach its natural and desirable outcome, even though it meant the eventual confinement of organics to zoo planets. (I would have loved that, myself, and loved the ensuing freakout even more.)

Of course, this is after Shepard must decide, and so it's no help to her. Part of the decision is deciding whether you believe that premise, then.

[Valkyrja]

Zoo planets? Why not just free organic species from the shackles of corporeal existence and forcibly upload their minds to data banks.

 

The resulting gestalt entity could even be given a ship to fly around in...

[goishen]

I'd go further. Given the way the Stargazer scene plays out, the game come close to establishing that the Catalyst's premise is outright wrong. Picture an alternative Stargazer scene where two AIs are praising Shepard for his wisdom and selflessness in allowing evolution to reach its natural and desirable outcome, even though it meant the eventual confinement of organics to zoo planets. (I would have loved that, myself, and loved the ensuing freakout even more.)

Of course, this is after Shepard must decide, and so it's no help to her. Part of the decision is deciding whether you believe that premise, then.

 

 

However, the Catalyst lived in a bubble.  No other AI's around.  So, by the time organics had programmed AI's, the Catalyst had already moved beyond that.  Of course, this is if you consider AI's to be alive.  And there's the catch.

 

I'll agree with you this far, the end was reaching.  But, IMHO, it wasn't reaching that far.  

[In Exile]

Zoo planets? Why not just free organic species from the shackles of corporeal existence and forcibly upload their minds to data banks.

The resulting gestalt entity could even be given a ship to fly around in...

Only if we do it via blender. I know we've done great things in advancing the ability of technology to reconstruct brains from puree.

Edit:
Oh! And the only process could be done in a way that emulates a holocaust, but many times worse. Maybe we just, I don't know, turn a third of the species into shambling body horror abominations and use them as weapons, while reducing the other third to drooling husks by crushing their brains to putty using an electromagnetic signal.

[AlanC9]

Zoo planets? Why not just free organic species from the shackles of corporeal existence and forcibly upload their minds to data banks.
 
The resulting gestalt entity could even be given a ship to fly around in...

Well, I was trying to be nice to players who don't dig the whole transhumanism thing. Besides, the point is that organic intelligence just isn't important anymore. Though I suppose AIs shouldn't be sentimental about organics the way we are about wildlife.

[AlanC9]

However, the Catalyst lived in a bubble.  No other AI's around.  So, by the time organics had programmed AI's, the Catalyst had already moved beyond that.  Of course, this is if you consider AI's to be alive.  And there's the catch.

Well, I'm not sure "alive" is all that meaningful a term in the first place, so I'm going to punt on that.

[In Exile]

Well, I'm not sure "alive" is all that meaningful a term in the first place, so I'm going to punt on that.

Like organic, it has an important meaning but ME has zero grasp on what it actually means. Intestinal fauna is "organic". Life just has to be self-replicating.

[AlanC9]

And by that definition all sorts of AI designs can be alive, of course.

[In Exile]

And by that definition all sorts of AI designs can be alive, of course.

Absolutely. Which is why the question of whether something is alive is a bit pointless. Trees are alive. No one's really asking about their moral worth, though, because they're obviously not sentient (much less sapient). Just like asking if something is "organic". A bunch of household chemicals are "organic". And intestinal fauna is "organic life" but that's not really what anyone is going for here.

That's why the whole organic vs. synthetic thing is just gibberish.

[Sion1138]

(We need to) Go deeper.

[Natureguy85]

I'd go further. Given the way the Stargazer scene plays out, the game come close to establishing that the Catalyst's premise is outright wrong. Picture an alternative Stargazer scene where two AIs are praising Shepard for his wisdom and selflessness in allowing evolution to reach its natural and desirable outcome, even though it meant the eventual confinement of organics to zoo planets. (I would have loved that, myself, and loved the ensuing freakout even more.)

Of course, this is after Shepard must decide, and so it's no help to her. Part of the decision is deciding whether you believe that premise, then.

 

Comes close? It outright refutes it. The Quarians instigated violence with the Geth yet the Geth did not utterly destroy them despite it being within their power at the time. The Quarians would have defeated the Geth in ME3 had it not been for Reaper influence. Then you have EDI helping Organics willfully and getting into a romantic relationship with Joker. The only times we see Synthetics wiping out Organics is when a VI goes haywire. These instances have nothing to do with Synthetics being superior, but with Organics giving control of vital systems to Synthetics. But the premise was not that Organics are too dependent on Synthetics.

[The Twilight God]

(We need to) Go deeper.

...

That's what she said.

[Kotor3onPS4]

personally I think this game looks very gay why because there's no Commander Shepard for 1 I'm guessing that there's no longer any of the previous characters from the previous mass effect franchise so what now we just play a some random male or female human at least I hope you put a whole bunch of more fully customized details for are characters and more costumes and more contact I love the previous Mass Effect games I have all of them but this game is making me real one uneasy. and I wonder how the story is going to be since there is no more Commander shepherd please do not make a multiplayer on this your freaking multiplayer on Mass Effect 3 sucked ass

[Natureguy85]

personally I think this game looks very gay why because there's no Commander Shepard for 1 I'm guessing that there's no longer any of the previous characters from the previous mass effect franchise so what now we just play a some random male or female human at least I hope you put a whole bunch of more fully customized details for are characters and more costumes and more contact I love the previous Mass Effect games I have all of them but this game is making me real one uneasy. and I wonder how the story is going to be since there is no more Commander shepherd please do not make a multiplayer on this your freaking multiplayer on Mass Effect 3 sucked ass

 

Would it still be a problem if we had new characters but almost everything else about the setting was the same? Such as all the races will all be there and we'd still be in the Milky Way.

[Dirgegun]

personally I think this game looks very gay why because there's no Commander Shepard for 1 I'm guessing that there's no longer any of the previous characters from the previous mass effect franchise so what now we just play a some random male or female human at least I hope you put a whole bunch of more fully customized details for are characters and more costumes and more contact I love the previous Mass Effect games I have all of them but this game is making me real one uneasy. and I wonder how the story is going to be since there is no more Commander shepherd please do not make a multiplayer on this your freaking multiplayer on Mass Effect 3 sucked ass

 

Please don't use gay as an insult. It's a misuse of the word and rather impolite. (:

 

I love my Shepard as much as the next person, but ME3 was always supposed to be the end of Shepard's story. We knew that long, long before ME3 even came out. I really don't mind moving onto a fresh character in a fresh part of the universe, personally, because I do love the lore in general and want to see more of it, the different alien species, and I want to experience it from a new character's perspective.

 

Mass Effect 1 started with a random man/woman, as none of us knew Shepard when we started. This is just an opportunity to make/get to know another new character, one we'll surely become just as attached to. I will, anyway, because I'm attached to all my Bioware protagonists to different degrees and I enjoy creating characters in general.  

[AlanC9]

That's why the whole organic vs. synthetic thing is just gibberish.

Well, there are ways to make that work if Bio had put the time in. The Hyperion Cantos handled this fairly well -- AIs are fundamentally alien to humans because they originated from an "ecosystem" that really is what the Social Darwinists fantasized nature to be, and so never developed empathy and altruism except as tactical moves. Or the whole zombie problem (David Chalmers, the Chinese Room, etc. --you're familiar with this material, right?)

The sad thing is that EDI would have been a great way to explore these concepts if Bio had actually been thinking about them. Say, she goes full Skinner on Joker because free will is a silly illusion anyway, and he'll be happier when properly conditioned.

[AlanC9]

Comes close? It outright refutes it. The Quarians instigated violence with the Geth yet the Geth did not utterly destroy them despite it being within their power at the time. The Quarians would have defeated the Geth in ME3 had it not been for Reaper influence. Then you have EDI helping Organics willfully and getting into a romantic relationship with Joker. The only times we see Synthetics wiping out Organics is when a VI goes haywire. These instances have nothing to do with Synthetics being superior, but with Organics giving control of vital systems to Synthetics. But the premise was not that Organics are too dependent on Synthetics.

I don't see how the geth and EDI refute anything. The whole case is about sufficiently advanced AIs, and the geth are manifestly not that advanced. If they were, they wouldn't have been losing to the quarians. If someone made a case millions of years ago that primates would dominate the Earth, demonstrating that australopithecenes couldn't do that would not refute the argument.

[Iakus]

Well, there are ways to make that work if Bio had put the time in. The Hyperion Cantos handled this fairly well -- AIs are fundamentally alien to humans because they originated from an "ecosystem" that really is what the Social Darwinists fantasized nature to be, and so never developed empathy and altruism except as tactical moves. Or the whole zombie problem (David Chalmers, the Chinese Room, etc. --you're familiar with this material, right?)
 

The same could be said for organics as well.  Humans, krogan, turian, salarians, are all supposed to be very different from one another, yet are all basically Rubber Forehead Aliens.

 

Heck that's what made Legion and the geth so interesting in ME2, the geth were an alien mindset, not necessarily hostile to organics (except the Heretics) but not really understanding them either, and so generally choosing to remove themselves from their presence.  After all, it's not like the geth need garden worlds to survive.

 

 

The sad thing is that EDI would have been a great way to explore these concepts if Bio had actually been thinking about them. Say, she goes full Skinner on Joker because free will is a silly illusion anyway, and he'll be happier when properly conditioned.

Isn't that Synthesis?  

[Sion1138]

Well, there are ways to make that work if Bio had put the time in. The Hyperion Cantos handled this fairly well -- AIs are fundamentally alien to humans because they originated from an "ecosystem" that really is what the Social Darwinists fantasized nature to be, and so never developed empathy and altruism except as tactical moves. Or the whole zombie problem (David Chalmers, the Chinese Room, etc. --you're familiar with this material, right?)

 

 

Yeah, maybe. Although you'd think they would build that in. Priority one stuff.

 

It may even be necessary for practical reasons.

 

As an aside, there are humans who are like that, no empathy. Plenty of them.

[AlanC9]

Isn't that Synthesis?  

More seriously, it might be Control.

[Wulfram]

I don't see how the geth and EDI refute anything. The whole case is about sufficiently advanced AIs, and the geth are manifestly not that advanced. If they were, they wouldn't have been losing to the quarians. If someone made a case millions of years ago that primates would dominate the Earth, demonstrating that australopithecenes couldn't do that would not refute the argument.

If the Geth had completed their super-structure they might have become sufficiently advanced. I do wish they'd taken the opportunity to explore that - not only is it interesting in itself, but it could have helped prepare the ground for the ending, and it would provide a better justification for the Quarians starting the war at such a stupid time - they needed to act before the Geth went all Singularity.

[Sion1138]

If the Geth had completed their super-structure they might have become sufficiently advanced. I do wish they'd taken the opportunity to explore that - not only is it interesting in itself, but it could have helped prepare the ground for the ending, and it would provide a better justification for the Quarians starting the war at such a stupid time - they needed to act before the Geth went all Singularity.

 

You know what would have been interesting?

 

If they had finished the super-structure, put every program on it, and then it all just went dark for no apparent reason.

[the red boon]

This is it? Some pre-rendered cut scenes with bass. Oh man, please be more generic.

[Natureguy85]

I don't see how the geth and EDI refute anything. The whole case is about sufficiently advanced AIs, and the geth are manifestly not that advanced. If they were, they wouldn't have been losing to the quarians. If someone made a case millions of years ago that primates would dominate the Earth, demonstrating that australopithecenes couldn't do that would not refute the argument.

 

Then there's no reason for the Reapers to be around reaping then is there? All you're pointing out is that the Geth lacked the ability to wipe out Organics. What the Geth and EDI show is a lack of will to wipe out Organics. They don't have hostility. They want to coexist. The Catalyst's premise is that Synthetics always wipe out their creators.

 

If the Geth had completed their super-structure they might have become sufficiently advanced. I do wish they'd taken the opportunity to explore that - not only is it interesting in itself, but it could have helped prepare the ground for the ending, and it would provide a better justification for the Quarians starting the war at such a stupid time - they needed to act before the Geth went all Singularity.

 

Actually had they waited for the Geth to all upload, there would be no need to fight them. They would all be in there, not in ships or mobile platforms. At the very least, they could kill them all by just taking out one target; a target they showed they could destroy.