1624 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

Oh, you mean prerelease footage like "Interactive Storytelling"?

Yes, exactly like that. Or, more importantly, like the demo they released that contained multiple missions.

[AtreiyaN7]

So is it wrong to call McDonald's out on their BS too?

 

Two words: food stylists. Also, I think you're being silly about this - both on calling McDonald's out and your attempt to equate BW not fulfilling your every wish/hope/dream as being the same as the illusion produced by stylists touching things up (a lot) in a commercial.

 

Just about any food product that you see in a commercial has almost always been worked on by a food stylist to make it look as delicious as possible and probably bears almost no resemblance to what you will actually get in a restaurant or store - this certainly applies to fast-food establishments in particular. If you want to say games do the exact same thing, then I disagree because games don't have their gameplay magically altered by stylists into something completely unrecognizable from what you get when you actually play the game.

 

What you see advertised gameplay-wise is generally exactly what you get (caveat: that's assuming that we're strictly talking about a finished game with advertisements showing actual gameplay, as opposed to entertaining live-action commercials OR still images that may have been touched up OR CGI commercials). Sure, you might dream about getting to do anything and everything you want when a dev says your character is customizable and that the story is all about you and your decisions, but being realistic about it, you have to know in your heart that you're just not going to get everything you want.

 

Now while TW3 might have done a fairly good job of letting you make your own choices with a diverse number of outcomes, it's not like you have true freedom - there are ultimately a finite number of outcomes for any story. It's not like if you do x/y/z, you're suddenly going to be able to get an infinite number of completely different endings tailored to you. Try that in FO4 and good luck with radically changing the outcomes in that game - I enjoyed it, but you are basically railroaded into eliminating two factions, at least one of whom you should probably be able to hypothetically negotiate peace with in an ideal world. And every storyline basically results in you killing someone (or more than one someone) in FO4 - I like the game, but I do agree with people who said it fell flat in some ways.

 

But hey, back to the food: If you actually believe that you're going to get a Big Mac or Quarter Pounder that looks as good as the one in the commercials (or that you imagine tastes as good as what you see in a commercial), that's never, ever going to happen. And it's not like it's McDonald's that is the only company that does this, they all do it. In fact, when you see that amazingly delicious-looking version of a food product in a commercial, it may well have components that aren't even edible (I remember a story about this where a stylist mentioned using shaving cream instead of whipped cream for effect, because it looked better/held up better than actual whipped cream).

 

Now, can everyone go back to maybe talking about ME:A tweets instead equating that BioWare saying that <x> protagonist being your character is a lie or is deceptive because the character isn't 100% malleable in every respect is the same as food-related advertising in which food is made to look pretty by food stylists? Sure, good on the devs at BW and elsewhere if they aim for ever higher degrees of complexity AND actually manage to give us multiple different endings with more than just minor differences in flavor. It would be great if everyone could do that, but honestly, I think people often seem too unrealistic about what they expect to get and then become overly upset when a game doesn't quite live up to their pie-in-the-sky hopes for said game.

[Iakus]

Yes, exactly like that. Or, more importantly, like the demo they released that contained multiple missions.

You do realize that the clip I linked was so deceptive as to be practically outright lying, yes?

 

And the demo had two missions that had zero choices of substance.  Not even much dialogue, right?

 

 

 

Two words: food stylists. Also, I think you're being silly about this - both on calling McDonald's out and your attempt to equate BW not fulfilling your every wish/hope/dream as being the same as the illusion produced by stylists touching things up (a lot) in a commercial.

 

Wasn't my comparison originally

 

 

Now, can everyone go back to maybe talking about ME:A tweets instead equating that BioWare saying that <x> protagonist being your character is a lie or is deceptive because the character isn't 100% malleable in every respect is the same as food-related advertising in which food is made to look pretty by food stylists? 

The Twitter thread is the one directly below this one.

 

Nice hyperbole though.

[Natureguy85]

It's not about right and wrong. It's about actually knowing what to expect. If you go to a McDonalds and get a Big Mac and then complain that it doesn't look like it does in the commercials, then I think everyone, worker and consumer alike, is going to roll their eyes at you.

 

You're right but in fairness, the previous product, Dragon Age Origins, did feature a more "blank slate" protagonist.

 

 

Oh, you mean prerelease footage like "Interactive Storytelling"?

 

 

Well my comment about Shepard being more defined reaches back to the first game.

[CronoDragoon]

YOu do realize that the clip I linked was so deceptive as to be practically outright lying, yes?

It doesn't really approach lying in any meaningful sense, but beyond that I imagine you're still listening to what they're saying, whereas I'm telling you to look at what they are showing you. The Thessia choice they show you is actually pretty indicative of how the game is. Largely binary choices with consequences limited to the immediate situation.
 

ANd the demo had two missions that had zero chocies of substance.

By your arguments, wouldn't that mean the demo was indicative of the final product?
 

You're right but in fairness, the previous product, Dragon Age Origins, did feature a more "blank slate" protagonist.

That's not even the previous product in the same line of products, though. It's a completely different series. And again as I said, the pre-release footage shows that Shepard isn't anything like the Warden.

[Iakus]

It doesn't really approach lying in any meaningful sense, but beyond that I imagine you're still listening to what they're saying, whereas I'm telling you to look at what they are showing you. The Thessia choice they show you is actually pretty indicative of how the game is. Largely binary choices with consequences limited to the immediate situation.
 

It was highly deceptive, implying that the choice they showed there would have consequences or not.  Namely, that the asari may help you get to the temple on Thessia and die in the process, or refuse to help and you have to go it alone.  When in the actual game they help you (and die) no matter which dialogue option you chose.

 

So yeah, what they showed us was grossly innacurate.

 

 

By your arguments, wouldn't that mean the demo was indicative of the final product?

Sadly, you have a point there.  The assumption was it was simply a gameplay demo, but it was in fact indicative of the final product.

[CronoDragoon]

When in the actual game they help you (and die) no matter which dialogue option you chose.

Oh, is that so? In that case yes, that's deceptive.

[AlanC9]

This is an issue that goes back to the ME1 Distress Call trailer.

Did they release gameplay trailers for DA:O? I only ever saw Sacred Ashes.

[Barquiel]

This is an issue that goes back to the ME1 Distress Call trailer.

Did they release gameplay trailers for DA:O? I only ever saw Sacred Ashes.

I remember the "violence" trailer (mostly because of the unfitting music)

[Iakus]

This is an issue that goes back to the ME1 Distress Call trailer.

Did they release gameplay trailers for DA:O? I only ever saw Sacred Ashes.

Was the "Distress Call" a gameplay trailer?  Did it include cuts of each choice (falsely) implying that the decision actually mattered?

[AlexTGW]

I was sorely dissapointed with Dragon Age Inquisition because of their marketing campaign.They showcased gameplay footage with meaningfull enviromental damage ,active attacks on keeps, meaningfull choices that might have closed off areas of the game, customisable strongholds and a generally more reactive and engaging world. After that footage which was lenghty, and some interviews where they talked about those systems everything was quiet for a while and then the game released some months later with almost all of that cut out, and a game feeling empty and rushed.What bothered me then was because of the marketing of those systems i decided that i was going to buy the game and had to cut on buying food and other stuff in order to gather the money for the game.I was sorely dissapointed when i found out in the game that none of those mechanics were present anymore and they never said anything about those changes in the months prior to release.They also got away with it.If you market a tomato you should better sell me a tomato not a potato.I think you can still find that video on youtube, it's like a different game to what was sold in the end. They can get away with these because of reasons like "development  changes" because of reasons so you should not have believed that was the final game.Well if you scrap something during development you should let your buyers know.I felt cheated and discusted and i never got to play the game a second playthrough because i get that feeling every time i see it.Another more relevant example was the mass effect 3 ending where casey hudson i believe stated during the marketing campaign that the game would not have just 3 endings "  It's not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them."
A list of more quotes about mass effect 3 said prior to release:
http://www.gamefaqs....fect-3/62307752

The lengthy gameplay video about the systems that were cut from dragon age inquisition in the release

[Ajensis]

Well if you scrap something during development you should let your buyers know.

 

That happens with every major video game, though. Should every developer state this for every release, or should we just assume it since that's how development usually goes?

 

It sucks that you were disappointed, but at least now you know only to judge a product by what the developers officially release - or, even better, wait for the reviews to arrive. There are better ways to shape your expectations than by fan-recorded footage from a convention.

[Iakus]

That happens with every major video game, though. Should every developer state this for every release, or should we just assume it since that's how development usually goes?

 

It sucks that you were disappointed, but at least now you know only to judge a product by what the developers officially release - or, even better, wait for the reviews to arrive. There are better ways to shape your expectations than by fan-recorded footage from a convention.

But this particular tangent came from the advice to "look at what they are showing you" before making decisions.  Things like prerelease footage.  But that has proven highly unreliable.

 

I mean, yeah "Words are wind" are good to keep in mind when something is promised, especially something extravagant.  But as a marketing strategy?  Not okay.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I was sorely dissapointed with Dragon Age Inquisition because of their marketing campaign.They showcased gameplay footage with meaningfull enviromental damage ,active attacks on keeps, meaningfull choices that might have closed off areas of the game, customisable strongholds and a generally more reactive and engaging world. After that footage which was lenghty, and some interviews where they talked about those systems everything was quiet for a while and then the game released some months later with almost all of that cut out, and a game feeling empty and rushed.What bothered me then was because of the marketing of those systems i decided that i was going to buy the game and had to cut on buying food and other stuff in order to gather the money for the game.I was sorely dissapointed when i found out in the game that none of those mechanics were present anymore and they never said anything about those changes in the months prior to release.They also got away with it.If you market a tomato you should better sell me a tomato not a potato.I think you can still find that video on youtube, it's like a different game to what was sold in the end. They can get away with these because of reasons like "development changes" because of reasons so you should not have believed that was the final game.Well if you scrap something during development you should let your buyers know.I felt cheated and discusted and i never got to play the game a second playthrough because i get that feeling every time i see it.Another more relevant example was the mass effect 3 ending where casey hudson i believe stated during the marketing campaign that the game would not have just 3 endings " It's not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them."
A list of more quotes about mass effect 3 said prior to release:
http://www.gamefaqs....fect-3/62307752
The lengthy gameplay video about the systems that were cut from dragon age inquisition in the release
https://www.youtube....h?v=20s_cV_Mglg

All I got to say is that they better not **** this up with ME:A.

[Ajensis]

But this particular tangent came from the advice to "look at what they are showing you" before making decisions.  Things like prerelease footage.  But that has proven highly unreliable.

 

I mean, yeah "Words are wind" are good to keep in mind when something is promised, especially something extravagant.  But as a marketing strategy?  Not okay.

 

But Bioware didn't release the footage that ruined AlexTGW's experience with DA:I.

 

I do agree with the overall criticism of a small part of Bioware's marketing for ME3 - exemplified rather well in the video you posted some days ago (and which I gave a Like). It's not something I'd like to see again. On the other hand, I think some members are quick to exaggerate the issue. The poster I responded to seemed a particularly suitable recipient for some advice about expecting certain changes during development and to look at outside sources for a relatively honest impression of the product.

 

Edit: I expect ME:Andromeda to be hyped up - a lot. They'll talk about things like the wonder and amazement of taking your spaceship and fly it to dozens of different worlds, the seamless gameplay with no apparent loading screen, the immersion of it, stuff like that. You'll see beautiful landscapes with a slowly panning camera. They'll make it sound like something completely new and wondrous when it's pretty much just like ME1's exploration with prettier graphics. It's what marketing does. Everyone will be a lot better off if we just accept that and don't get too carried away. I still expect ME:A to be a solid game (little as we have to go on presently), but I probably won't expect it to be revolutionary in any way. That's what I'm hoping will rub off on AlexTGW so he won't have to write such a strongly worded post on these forums.

[Fallen_silver]

So from space saver to now space cowboy/ghost rider lol what  . Does look good and even money says ME:A will have a keep like system. I dub it Mass Effect Black Box. 

[Natureguy85]

That happens with every major video game, though. Should every developer state this for every release, or should we just assume it since that's how development usually goes?

 

 

If it was an advertised feature, then yes, absolutely they should make customers aware. 

[Catastrophy]

How hard is it to accept the fact you need to judge the finished product and not what marketing tells you that might be in?

[Natureguy85]

How hard is it to accept the fact you need to judge the finished product and not what marketing tells you that might be in?

 

How hard is it to accept the fact that this doesn't mean marketing shouldn't be honest? So lying is ok now if you know the person is lying?

[Catastrophy]

How hard is it to accept the fact that this doesn't mean marketing shouldn't be honest? So lying is ok now if you know the person is lying?

Lol, good luck on changing that. A bit naive maybe, but hey - the world would be a bit better indeed.

In the meantime you could just save some common sense and not believe everything they tell you. And I'm pretty sure they have these disclaimers that tell about everything is subject to change and that, so good luck with accusing them for "lying".

[Natureguy85]

Lol, good luck on changing that. A bit naive maybe, but hey - the world would be a bit better indeed.

In the meantime you could just save some common sense and not believe everything they tell you. And I'm pretty sure they have these disclaimers that tell about everything is subject to change and that, so good luck with accusing them for "lying".

 

You must be in marketing. "Hey, it's all in the fine print." We're talking about what they ought to do, not what they can legally get away with or even what they will do. Of course everything is subject to change and major changes should be advertised or announced.

[pdusen]

You must be in marketing. "Hey, it's all in the fine print." We're talking about what they ought to do, not what they can legally get away with or even what they will do. Of course everything is subject to change and major changes should be advertised or announced.

Software development, and especially games, can't work that way. It's simply not practical because it happens hundreds of times over the course of a project.

If you were to give me an ultimatum like that, I'd just stop telling you about early design goals and wait until I was nearly done.

...oh wait.

[Catastrophy]

You must be in marketing. "Hey, it's all in the fine print." We're talking about what they ought to do, not what they can legally get away with or even what they will do. Of course everything is subject to change and major changes should be advertised or announced.

I don't need to be in marketing to see how things work. And when you know how it works it's up to you if you fall for it or not.

 

Do you understand? It is the consumers, who WANT to believe. They create dreams you crave for. And if they're clever, they do it legally sound. Just don't fall for it and you're good.

[Natureguy85]

Software development, and especially games, can't work that way. It's simply not practical because it happens hundreds of times over the course of a project.

If you were to give me an ultimatum like that, I'd just stop telling you about early design goals and wait until I was nearly done.

...oh wait.

 

Hey, I'd actually prefer that. Again, I'm not talking about every little thing, but major things

[Natureguy85]

I don't need to be in marketing to see how things work. And when you know how it works it's up to you if you fall for it or not.

 

Do you understand? It is the consumers, who WANT to believe. They create dreams you crave for. And if they're clever, they do it legally sound. Just don't fall for it and you're good.

 

Absolutely but if somebody tries to trick me, I still don't appreciate it even if I don't fall for it. "It's how this works" doesn't make it good or right and as consumers, we ought to demand better. Now, we may never get it, but we certainly won't if we simply accept it as the status quo.