1618 réponses à ce sujet

[Ajensis]

Psst, Hrungr, this isn't the Twitter thread

[Natureguy85]

Why is that a problem?

Because this is a character driven series. Shepard has friends and teammates. The entire series is spent getting to know them, getting to know what their issues are, and growing close to them. Some die and some live. They are there for the important decisions that Shepard makes and they give their input, even if it's just to frame your options.

Look at the major arcs within Mass Effect 3. Would you really care that much about the genophage if it were not for Wrex or Mordin? Would you really care about the Geth and Quarian conflict if not for Tali and Legion? These are the people that make these conflicts real rather than ancient history.

So despite going through the entire series surrounded by other characters, for no reason Shepard is stranded alone with the antagonist and forced to make the most important decision of all by himself and without any reliable information.

[Hrungr]

Psst, Hrungr, this isn't the Twitter thread

 

Um... I knew that!

(Yeah, I was... just... testing you guys.)

 

[correctamundo]

Because this is a character driven series. Shepard has friends and teammates. The entire series is spent getting to know them, getting to know what their issues are, and growing close to them. Some die and some live. They are there for the important decisions that Shepard makes and they give their input, even if it's just to frame your options.

Look at the major arcs within Mass Effect 3. Would you really care that much about the genophage if it were not for Wrex or Mordin? Would you really care about the Geth and Quarian conflict if not for Tali and Legion? These are the people that make these conflicts real rather than ancient history.

So despite going through the entire series surrounded by other characters, for no reason Shepard is stranded alone with the antagonist and forced to make the most important decision of all by himself and without any reliable information.

 

No reason? As I recall Harbinger incinerated just about everyone else present. Anyway Shep should know friends and crew well enough by then to comprehend the consequences for them based on the choice made. Shep is not a stranger to difficult choices made without reliable information.

[Ajensis]

Um... I knew that!

(Yeah, I was... just... testing you guys.)

 

 

Of course!   

 

(I'm actually surprised it doesn't happen more often; I frequently enter one of the pinned threads thinking it's the other one )

[Natureguy85]

No reason? As I recall Harbinger incinerated just about everyone else present. Anyway Shep should know friends and crew well enough by then to comprehend the consequences for them based on the choice made. Shep is not a stranger to difficult choices made without reliable information.

Yes, that happened, but that's not a narrative reason. There was no reason for that to happen. Shepard didn't have to go through the conduit alone. But they wanted to have the dramatic beam run and have Shepard get blasted and have that terrible slow walk for the rest of the game. It's not about Shepard knowing his crew, it's about them being involved; it's about them remaining central to the story.

 

Having to make choices without information is not a strength, particularly when there is no hurry and we can't ask questions.

[themikefest]

Yes, that happened, but that's not a narrative reason. There was no reason for that to happen. Shepard didn't have to go through the conduit alone. But they wanted to have the dramatic beam run and have Shepard get blasted and have that terrible slow walk for the rest of the game. It's not about Shepard knowing his crew, it's about them being involved; it's about them remaining central to the story.

 

Having to make choices without information is not a strength, particularly when there is no hurry and we can't ask questions.

Which characters should be involved to help Shepard make the decision?

[Natureguy85]

At least the squadmates you bring. They were there for all the other decisions. They gave opinions, even when it was just to frame the choices. An interesting thing about that in the first game was thatsomebody like Garrus and Wrex would be for saving the Council if Ashley were there to say how the Council never did anything for them, but would be the one to remind Shepard of the Council's obstruction if Kaidan, Tali, or Liara were there.

On that note I really wonder what happens if you have Tali and Liara. If I ever did that, I don't remember. I'm guessing Tali would be the one to suggest focusing on Sovereign.

 

It might be possible to create a good scene with more characters, though you don't want to overload it. So I think at least the traditional two squadmates would be a start. Presentation might also be the problem. Had Shepard just made it to the beam and seen his team killed or at least cut off, without the ridiculousness of Shepard getting hit but not killed and Harbinger flying away, I might be more ok with Shepard's isolation. Or had they done something with the idea that the isolation was bothering Shepard after having others to lean on for so long. Also, in fairness, it did allow for the scene with Anderson. While the set up made no sense and I hated the conversation with TIM, except for the last bit of Renegade dialogue, I really like the final talk with Anderson.

[correctamundo]

Yes, that happened, but that's not a narrative reason. There was no reason for that to happen. Shepard didn't have to go through the conduit alone. But they wanted to have the dramatic beam run and have Shepard get blasted and have that terrible slow walk for the rest of the game. It's not about Shepard knowing his crew, it's about them being involved; it's about them remaining central to the story.

 

Having to make choices without information is not a strength, particularly when there is no hurry and we can't ask questions.

 

And everybody surviving again? Nah, low ems beam run is the right beam run.

[themikefest]

At least the squadmates you bring.

 Why would my Shepard trust them?

 

I like to have my Shepard's number one fan, Conrad Verner, at her side when she makes that decision, but that would be hard to explain.

 

 I'm sure the folks who romanced Miranda, Jack, Steve and Samantha would like to have them at their Shepard's side when he/she make the final decision, but again that would be hard to explain.

[correctamundo]

 Why would my Shepard trust them?

 

I like to have my Shepard's number one fan, Conrad Verner, at her side when she makes that decision, but that would be hard to explain.

 

 I'm sure the folks who romanced Miranda, Jack, Steve and Samantha would like to have them at their Shepard's side when he/she make the final decision, but again that would be hard to explain.

 

Anyway, Shep has Anderson, TIM and Cata Lyst all giving sound advice.

 

When your patient is dying someone has to make the final call.

[Natureguy85]

And everybody surviving again? Nah, low ems beam run is the right beam run.

 

Not necessarily. They could die on the way out, like in ME2 if you take unloyal squadmates to fight the Human Reaper. That's after the decision to keep or destroy the base.

 

I do like that the squadmates can be killed by Harbinger. It's a really well done scene. I just wish they hadn't tied it to EMS or showed how that actually impacted the change in the events. It would have kept EMS as actual resources, not just a score. I also wish they'd show Shepard affected by it more. Maybe it would need to happen just a bit further from the end of the game.

 

Now that you mention it, I'm trying to figure out a way for those squadmates dying to work without the problem I have with the isolation now. My recent idea would be to have Shepard, whose mind is clearly breaking throughout the game, talk to phantoms of the dead squadmates, much like IT envisions TIM and Anderson to be. It would actually tie well into the dreams since you can hear quotes of dead squadmates in them. This could replace the conversation with TIM and Anderson or just replace Anderson and have them show up, whispering in Shepard's ear as TIM blathers on. There are things that could be done.

 

 

 Why would my Shepard trust them?

 

I like to have my Shepard's number one fan, Conrad Verner, at her side when she makes that decision, but that would be hard to explain.

 

 I'm sure the folks who romanced Miranda, Jack, Steve and Samantha would like to have them at their Shepard's side when he/she make the final decision, but again that would be hard to explain.

 

Shepard has trusted them for the entire game/series depending on who we're talking about. Why wouldn't he/she? But again, it's not that they are making the decision, it's that they are giving you input. It makes it clear what the characters think about the choices and how they will be impacted by them. The ambiguity of the ending on the consequences of the choices was a weakness, not a strength.

 

It wouldn't be hard to explain the prior squadmates. Heck, that would have been pretty cool if they let you take any of the living companions across the series on the very last mission. They could meet up with Shepard prior to the fleets deploying to Earth.

 

 

 

Anyway, Shep has Anderson, TIM and Cata Lyst all giving sound advice.

 

When your patient is dying someone has to make the final call.

 

Anderson hasn't been relevant since ME1. That game did a good job of establishing both and Shepard respecting if not looking up to Anderson. Then Anderson comes through for us at the end to help out. He's irrelevant in ME2, and is off in the distance in ME3. As much as I love the final conversation between the two, Anderson is dumb in ME3. That said, he's the only one who makes sense at the end.

 

TIM and the Catalyst don't give sound advice at all. They are both the enemy. TIM is Indoctrinated and the Catalyst controls the Reapers. 

 

I also like your doctor analogy in how it doesn't work because the patient isn't dying. One of the problems with the ending is the artificial sense of urgency. Why the rush to make a choice? Why not have the Reapers stop while Shepard and the Catalyst talk, like in the end of The Matrix Revolutions?

[Spacepunk01]

Here's a quote from the BioWare blog:

 

We knew we wanted to start with a foundation composed of the best parts of any Mass Effect game: exciting new worlds to discover, great characters, and intense action. At the same time, we clearly wanted to expand the definition of what you should expect from a Mass Effect game.

 

Does anybody have an idea about what this last line might entail?

[The Elder King]

Here's a quote from the BioWare blog:

 

We knew we wanted to start with a foundation composed of the best parts of any Mass Effect game: exciting new worlds to discover, great characters, and intense action. At the same time, we clearly wanted to expand the definition of what you should expect from a Mass Effect game.

 

Does anybody have an idea about what this last line might entail?

Exploration. ME2 and and ME3 had little of it, and ME didn't really do a good job.

[themikefest]

Shepard has trusted them for the entire game/series depending on who we're talking about. Why wouldn't he/she?

Your Shepard might, but mine doesn't. The game proves the squadmates don't care about Shepard.

If Jack isn't alive in ME3, Ensign Prangley is killed. Why didn't the squadmates provide cover fire while Shepard was helping Ensign Rodriquez get to the shuttle? Prangley most likely would live.

When facing Ashley/Kaidan during the coup, Udina says Shepard is with Cerberus. How hard would it been for the squadmates speak up saying that wrong or something else. Or speak up when Udina shows the fake vid of Shepard shooting the councilor? Remember Horizon in ME2? If Garrus is taken on the mission he speaks up when facing Ashley. What changed for him not to say anything this time? Was he and the other suffering from cat-got-your-tongue syndrome?

At the end of the ex-Cerberus scientists mission, who was there to help Shepard and provide cover fire? That's right. It wasn't the ME3 squadmates. It was a scientist, who without giving any thought to her own safety, jumped out of the shuttle to help Shepard, and Jacob provides cover fire making sure both get to the shuttle. If Jacob isn't in ME3, its Dr. Webber taking his place, another scientist. Are you taking notes ME3 squadmates on how to provide cover fire?

reporter: This is Khalisah al-Jilani live on scene with Commander Shepard. Commander. Why didn't your squadmates provide cover fire for you?
Shepard: Why don't you ask them yourself? I would be curious to hear what they have to say.
al-Jilani: Can you squadmates tell me why you didn't help the Commander?

Ashley and Tali: we were getting drunk
Liara: I was taking armor from dead bodies
Garrus: I was doing calibrations
edibot: trying to think of a joke
Javik: I don't care about you primitives. I'm here to kill reapers
Kaidan: My implant was giving me an headache
James: I was getting a tattoo

al-Jilani: What do you have to say Commander?
Shepard: Ask me after the reapers have been dealt with.

So yeah. My Shepard doesn't trust them enough to have them offer any advice when making the final decision.

 

It wouldn't be hard to explain the prior squadmates. Heck, that would have been pretty cool if they let you take any of the living companions across the series on the very last mission. They could meet up with Shepard prior to the fleets deploying to Earth.

It may of been cool to have them on the last mission, but it would be very hard to explain. Look at Samantha. She's not a squadmate. How would you explain having her on the Citadel standing beside Shepard offering her thoughts about the final choice? Its the same with the forward operating base. As much as I like to have her there, I can't come up with a good reason why she would be there.

I have made a few posts on other threads how the squadmates could go up the beam with Shepard. One is having Javik and another squadmate with Shepard fighting through the uglies. They make it to the beam. All three go up the beam only to encounter Cerberus soldiers. One of the squadmates tells Shepard to go open the arms while they hold off Cerberus. Shepard encounters TIM and Anderson. Just before Shepard shoots Anderson, one of the squadmates shoots TIM. Javik, Shepard, Anderson and the other squadmate take the magic carpet ride up to lala land. That's when Javik says he will destroy the reapers. A shuttle picks up the others. As it enters the Normandy, a red light can be seen.
 

Anderson hasn't been relevant since ME1.

He was never relevant. His comment he makes to the council about Shepard's visions was.....whatever.
 

That game did a good job of establishing both and Shepard respecting if not looking up to Anderson.

My Shepard never looked up to him. She respects him as a soldier. That's all.
 

Then Anderson comes through for us at the end to help out.

That's probably the only thing I can say that he got right. Of course it would be interesting if BioWare had Cerberus do it, maybe Miranda or Jacob, and then in ME2 they mention it.
 

He's irrelevant in ME2, and is off in the distance in ME3. As much as I love the final conversation between the two, Anderson is dumb in ME3. That said, he's the only one who makes sense at the end.

The moment he said its up to Shepard to defeat the reapers, he lost all respect. It told me he didn't care. It also proves nothing was done for the past two years to find a way to stop the reapers. I would've had a renegade interrupt to throw him over the balcony for saying something so stupid.

In ME3 he was lame when dealing with him face-to-face. As holo Anderson, he wasn't bad.

I don't like the last conversation. My Shepard never liked the guy. Had TIM carried a weapon when first seen, the scene plays out the same. Anderson wasn't needed.

[dekar25]

Your Shepard might, but mine doesn't. The game proves the squadmates don't care about Shepard.

If Jack isn't alive in ME3, Ensign Prangley is killed. Why didn't the squadmates provide cover fire while Shepard was helping Ensign Rodriquez get to the shuttle? Prangley most likely would live.

When facing Ashley/Kaidan during the coup, Udina says Shepard is with Cerberus. How hard would it been for the squadmates speak up saying that wrong or something else. Or speak up when Udina shows the fake vid of Shepard shooting the councilor? Remember Horizon in ME2? If Garrus is taken on the mission he speaks up when facing Ashley. What changed for him not to say anything this time? Was he and the other suffering from cat-got-your-tongue syndrome?

Beside time constrictions of game development (they had to make time for animating kai leng sick flips and running animations) i would say that it was done to cover the fact that some of the scenes don't leave you much of a choice. It was dumbed down from your choice affecting the outcome to watching a cutscene.

[Gold Dragon]

At the end of the ex-Cerberus scientists mission, who was there to help Shepard and provide cover fire? That's right. It wasn't the ME3 squadmates. It was a scientist, who without giving any thought to her own safety, jumped out of the shuttle to help Shepard, and Jacob provides cover fire making sure both get to the shuttle. If Jacob isn't in ME3, its Dr. Webber taking his place, another scientist.

 

A PREGNANT Scientist, if it's Jacob.

[Dalinne]

A PREGNANT Scientist, if it's Jacob.

 

Brynn is probably thinking in that moment: oh no! If Shepard dies I will have to call my baby after her. No way! No child of mine is gonna be called "Shepard-Taylor", is ****** stupid! I MUST SAVE THIS BIATCH!!!

And then she changed her mind and got used to like that name.

Damn you, Hawke!

[Natureguy85]

Your Shepard might, but mine doesn't. The game proves the squadmates don't care about Shepard.

 

It really doesn't. You love to rant about Grissom and you're right to, but that's cutscene incompetence. It's clear from your interaction that several do care, particularly those from the first game. ME3, even more than ME2, is set up like a movie. Characters who are supposed to be important in that particular scene are the ones to act. That explains why Garrus or whoever doesn't speak up on the Citadel and why Brynn is shooting on that mission. In other scenes they do act, like Leviathan where one will go get Shepard's stumbling body into the shuttle. Though the squadmate will shoot the Virmire Survivor if you don't get them to back down and shoot them yourself.

 

 

 

 

It may of been cool to have them on the last mission, but it would be very hard to explain. Look at Samantha. She's not a squadmate. How would you explain having her on the Citadel standing beside Shepard offering her thoughts about the final choice? Its the same with the forward operating base. As much as I like to have her there, I can't come up with a good reason why she would be there.

 

Hello, strawman. I'm talking about the combat squad that you take on every single mission except Arrival. Were there any others? These are the ones who were there with Shepard for every other decision. We're talking about narrative themes, so it really doesn't matter what you personally thought of the particular characters.

 

 

My Shepard never looked up to [Anderson]. She respects him as a soldier. That's all.

I don't like the last conversation. My Shepard never liked the guy. Had TIM carried a weapon when first seen, the scene plays out the same. Anderson wasn't needed.

 

I said respects. Anyway, yes your Shepard did like Anderson. Like it or not, that was taken out of your R/P hands in the last game and decided for you. I don't like it either, but it is what it is. Shepard isn't and never has been nearly the blank slate that the Warden or other RPG characters were.

 

Actually, I just realized that Anderson and TIM are exactly what I was talking about. They are two characters you've known for at least two games and are framing two different ideologies. This would be great except that TIM is clearly the villain, TIM is clearly Indoctrinated, and the scene can only end with him dead, either shot by Shepard or himself.

[Rip504]

EA makes such horrid and poorly developed games, that I will now wait to buy this game until I can get it used.

Last time I enjoyed an EA title it was indeed ME3,yet even that game had issues.

Here is hoping that Bioware still has enough talent left to deliver an epic game. I obviously have my doubts now.

[themikefest]

It really doesn't. You love to rant about Grissom and you're right to, but that's cutscene incompetence.

Is that the same excuse you would use when Tali stands around doing nothing while the geth uploads the code before her species is wiped out?
 

It's clear from your interaction that several do care, particularly those from the first game.

And if they did care, they would've made an effort to find a way to stop the reapers. They saw the same thing as Shepard during the events of ME1. Even Anderson says I believe you. Unfortunately Shepard can't ask them why they made no effort in ME2. I would guess it was to avoid any friction between them and Shepard. It seems Anderson spoke for everyone when he said its up to Shepard to stop the reapers. Where's a renegade interrupt when you need one?
 

In other scenes they do act, like Leviathan where one will go get Shepard's stumbling body into the shuttle.

Whippy do da. They couldn't do that the other 3 times?
 

Hello, strawman. I'm talking about the combat squad that you take on every single mission except Arrival. Were there any others? These are the ones who were there with Shepard for every other decision. We're talking about narrative themes, so it really doesn't matter what you personally thought of the particular characters.

I know you're talking about the squad. As I said. I wouldn't want them at my side, even for advice, when making the final decision.

I only mentioned Sam as someone who I would like at my Shepard's side as well as others. It wouldn't make sense since it would be very hard to explain having them there.

In your scenario, I would choose to have 2 ME2 squadmates at my side
 

I said respects.

Here's what you said

 

Anderson hasn't been relevant since ME1. That game did a good job of establishing both and Shepard respecting if not looking up to Anderson.

 

Anyway, yes your Shepard did like Anderson. Like it or not, that was taken out of your R/P hands in the last game and decided for you. I don't like it either, but it is what it is. Shepard isn't and never has been nearly the blank slate that the Warden or other RPG characters were.

Yeah my Shepard really liked the guy. He can be completely ignored in ME2. He can be ignored for most of the game after leaving Earth until London. I ignore the paragon interrupt on the shuttle, and I let TIM kill him. Gotta love that like thing.

[Natureguy85]

Is that the same excuse you would use when Tali stands around doing nothing while the geth uploads the code before her species is wiped out?

 

That's even worse. She is involved in the cutscene, so she's not an "extra" like the squadmates are in those other scenes. She's a main character and has a personal stake in the situation.

 

 

 

 

 

And if they did care, they would've made an effort to find a way to stop the reapers. They saw the same thing as Shepard during the events of ME1. Even Anderson says I believe you. Unfortunately Shepard can't ask them why they made no effort in ME2. I would guess it was to avoid any friction between them and Shepard. It seems Anderson spoke for everyone when he said its up to Shepard to stop the reapers. Where's a renegade interrupt when you need one?

 

The squadmates have no power. It seems like even Councilor Anderson has very limited influence. I don't like that they went this direction but it's not unfathomable.

 

 

 

Whippy do da. They couldn't do that the other 3 times?
 

 

I never said the writers/animators were good at constructing scenes.

 

 

 

Is that the same excuse you would use when Tali stands around doing nothing while the geth uploads the code before her species is wiped out?

I know you're talking about the squad. As I said. I wouldn't want them at my side, even for advice, when making the final decision.

I only mentioned Sam as someone who I would like at my Shepard's side as well as others. It wouldn't make sense since it would be very hard to explain having them there.

 

That's fine that you don't. It doesn't change that it makes thematic sense for them to be there and breaks from the themes for Shepard to be isolated. I didn't make much distinction over who should be there. You just picked people who wouldn't make sense to attempt to form a counter-point.

 

 

 

 

Here's what you said

 

Yes, as in respect at minimum, possibly more.

 

 

 

Yeah my Shepard really liked the guy. He can be completely ignored in ME2. He can be ignored for most of the game after leaving Earth until London. I ignore the paragon interrupt on the shuttle, and I let TIM kill him. Gotta love that like thing.

 

The entire intro is about building the relationship between the two. Can you avoid talking to him on the com? I never thought of R/Ping Anderson getting killed by TIM as Shepard willingly letting it happen because that's crazy. I'd be interested to know more about that playthrough to see how you made that in character. That could have been a fun run. I don't care about the interrupt on the shuttle.

[themikefest]

 I never thought of R/Ping Anderson getting killed by TIM as Shepard willingly letting it happen because that's crazy. I'd be interested to know more about that playthrough to see how you made that in character. That could have been a fun run. I don't care about the interrupt on the shuttle

I haven't let TIM shoot him many times since I mostly play as a rtenegade which leads to TIM pushing Anderson out of the way forcing my Shepard to shoot him. Or he shoots himself when I play paragon.

 

Its not hard to let TIM shoot Anderson. I've let it happen when playing both renegade and paragon. I'm not a fan of Anderson

[Natureguy85]

I haven't let TIM shoot him many times since I mostly play as a rtenegade which leads to TIM pushing Anderson out of the way forcing my Shepard to shoot him. Or he shoots himself when I play paragon.

 

Its not hard to let TIM shoot Anderson. I've let it happen when playing both renegade and paragon. I'm not a fan of Anderson

 

I know you're not. I do like the Renegade option better. It's good on its own but I like it because TIM doesn't deserve a Saren moment. If he were more sympathetic, I'd really like his "I tried, Shepard," line.

[Addictress]

Haha, I'm trying to find that post where Hanako Ikezawa says "I've been ready for 9 years"