2503 réponses à ce sujet

[Vazgen]

I just hope that if we get a squadmate from new species, he/she won't be "bangable". 

[Milana]

I still think going the playersexual way is the best, less resources are wasted and everyone's happy

Easily the best approach

Except that not everybody were happy, in fact a lot didnt like it. You know since its "forcing"

[mrjack]

But that is what I meant, if a character is inherently bi or gay, then that's fine. What I meant to say is that I don't see the value of creating a character and then put a stamp gay or bi on it, because that would mean it can be romanced by a certain group of people. I know that there should not be a justification whatsoever for anyone being gay or bi, and I understand minorities want to be included in massive games such as these, but that should not inherently mean that there have to be at least 4 people which tick off the boxes gay or bi. Again, we can agree to disagree here, but that won't change my sentiment too much. 

 

I'm not sure how you think writers develop a character but I'm pretty sure it's not a case of dreaming up their entire backstory, motivations, personality etc. and then "stamping" them with the bisexual seal of "diversity approved". Even in such an extreme and unlikely case, why is that so bad when that is exactly what happens with straight characters. They are "stamped" as heterosexual by default. No-one is asking why a character in Mass Effect is straight.

 

What is it about MIranda that makes her attracted to men?

Is it that she's looking for a father figure to love and care for her like own father never did?

Does she secretly see her own body as a genetically enhanced abomination and so she could never be attracted to someone with the same primary sex organs?

 

She doesn't need a reason she simply is and everyone accepts it. There is no backstory, personality type, past heartbreak, life goals that a character could possess that could *justify* them being one orientation or the other. We gay/bi people are just...like...you.

 

You may look at a character like Dorian and think it makes sense that he's gay but that is only because you associate his flamboyant behaviour with your flawed perception of what it is to be a gay man. It is just your perception however and it is perpetuated by centuries of only the most visible (i.e. gender non-conforming) gay men being present in the public consciousness. Every other type of gay man (if he was able) hid the fact that he was gay to avoid persecution.

 

So point to any average man or woman on the street and I guarantee you that there are millions of gay men and women just like them except for that one thing. So if, after creating a character, a writer decided to flip a coin to decide their sexuality, it wouldn't matter because no matter who you made them into, there are straight/gay/bi people just like them in real life. You keep using the word "inherently"... Inherently means they literally inherited that trait (so from birth) so anyone who is gay or bi is unavoidably inherently gay or bi. Some people may do evil things but they may not be inherently (from birth) evil. Are you saying that they must be gay or bi from the moment of conception in the writer's mind for their sexuality to be valid?

 

I hate this idea that that is banded about that being gay or bi "doesn't make sense for his/her character". If the writer wrote it, it makes sense because it just is.

 

No, I'm not a caring person in that respect. I've grown up in a country (The Netherlands) which in my opinion has always catered to the need of basically anyone, whether they be gay, straight, lesbian or followers of the cult of Cthulhu, and I have never felt the need to rise up for these minorities in any way. If people like you and Dave can use their voices, why should the rest not do so? Again, in this case it is your opinion clashing with mine, which is completely fine, but we both apparantly have very different backgrounds in this respect, likely influencing our opinions.

 

I can scream and shout as loud as I want and try and get every LGBT person on the planet to scream along with me but unless I have straight allies to fight beside me, I'll just be ignored. This is how a white man signed The Emancipation Proclamation in 1863 and an 87 year old straight woman (The Queen) gave royal assent to the Marriage Act 2013 here in the UK.

[SolNebula]

Except that not everybody were happy, in fact a lot didnt like it. You know since its "forcing"

 

Forcing what? A romance catered to your preferences.....what is forced in that?

[The Elder King]

Poor Bioware will probably have to try and appease everyone again
I wonder how long it will be until we have Transexual romances and other less common stuff (like Demisexuality which one user already posted about)

And then they will demand equal options etc.
 
I'm all for diversity don't get me wrong but story and characters should come first, instead of creating awesome characters on their own (in a natural way) Bioware probably plans for their sexual orientations first and then makes the characters (so its all equal and everyone's appeased)
I miss the DA:O and ME Trilogy days
 
I still think going the playersexual way is the best, less resources are wasted and everyone's happy
Easily the best approach

I don't think Bioware is exactly 'forced' to do so. It's just their stance now.
And again, Ther goal isn't equal choices (at least DA, Since Gaider said so last summer). It's giving everyone a choice.

[Milana]

Forcing what? A romance catered to your preferences.....what is forced in that?

Well since almost all characters were playersexual in DA2, a lot complained about being forced to be gay/bi.

 

Though obviously you could be straight as an arrow in your own playthroughs, but some people just see one side of a coin.

[The Elder King]

Well since almost all characters were playersexual in DA2, a lot complained about being forced to be gay/bi.
 
Though obviously you could be straight as an arrow in your own playthroughs, but some people just see one side of a coin.

...how ? Companions were playersexual (Though later Gaider clarified/retconnetted they were all bisexual). Hawke's Sexuality was up to the player.
Sometimes I really don't understand people.

[Grieving Natashina]

David Gaider, when asked, said that if he would consider opening the "Pandora's Box of Romance Content" (his words, not mine) in future IPs, he said that he may or may not.  It depended upon what the story would unfold, but it wouldn't be an automatic given that a BioWare game would have romances.  He's said repeatedly that no one is forced to write romance content for BioWare games.  They know that there is a market for it, but just the fact that not all of BW's writers even do any romance arcs at all is telling.  One of my favorites, Mary Kirby, has never done a romance in a BioWare game.  She has written one of my all time favorite characters too (Varric) and she's worked for the company for years.

 

Transgender, by the way, is about gender identity, not a sexuality.  Several members of the DA team have stated that they would not have done the all bisexual (not playersexual) route if given more time and resources for DA2.  It's was the easiest way given the extremely rushed schedule and limited resources to make sure players got at least one LI option.  Playersexuality is a term coined by the playerbase and one that the developers have freely expressed hating.  

 

The LIs in DA2 are indeed bisexual.  Not every bisexual goes around constantly talking about a past with partners of the same sex to everyone they meet, even to those they are are in love with.  Bisexual men in particular stay in the closet, due to having the stigma of "being actually gay and lying about it," which can make them an outlier even in the LGBT+ community, unfortunately.

[The Elder King]

David Gaider, when asked, said that if he would consider opening the "Pandora's Box of Romance Content" (his words, not mind) in future IPs, he said that he may or may not.  It depended upon what the story would unfold, but it wouldn't be an automatic given that a BioWare game would have romances.  He's said repeatedly that no one is forced to write romance content for BioWare games.  They know that there is a market for it, but just the fact that not all of BW's writers even do any romance arcs at all is telling.  One of my favorites, Mary Kirby, has never done a romance in a BioWare game.  She has written one of my all time favorite characters too (Varric) and she's worked for the company for years.
 
Transgender, by the way, is about gender identity, not a sexuality.  Several members of the DA team have stated that they would not have done the all bisexual (not playersexual) route if given more time and resources for DA2.  It's was the easiest way given the extremely rushed schedule and limited resources to make sure players got at least one LI option.  Playersexuality is a term coined by the playerbase and one that the developers have freely expressed hating.  
 
The LIs in DA2 are indeed bisexual.  Not every bisexual goes around constantly talking about a past with partners of the same sex to everyone they meet, even to those they are are in love with.  Bisexual men in particular stay in the closet, due to having the stigma of "being actually gay and lying about it," which can make them an outlier even in the LGBT+ community, unfortunately.

This. (I'll have to remind myself to like it later).

[Kulyok]

I want one well-written male-female romance for female protagonists, with a character who's not a jerk and there's a happy ending.

 

That's it.

[Sartoz]

I barely think of that. I just liked the DA2 options, almost as much as ME2. Isabela is one of their best characters.

 

                                                                                                <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>

 

She certainly was experienced as opposed to naive Merril. Her rogue skills were awesome, but is she really deserving of a best?

[alienatedflea]

Yeah so if you have an issue with a game feature you remove it altogether...riiiiiiiight....

 

Seriously I think this entire issue would be solved IF BW makes ALL romances player-sexual. Everyone will be happy, everyone gets to romance the character they prefer and we can finally move on from the entire quotas debate. Is this ideal? Nope. Is this realistic? Nope. Is it the best compromise? Yes it is because it grants the most inclusiveness and eliminate every problem that should arise.

 

Wouldn't you want to have a lesbian romance with Tali in ME? Wouldn't you want a gay romance with Garrus? Well with this system you can while still mantaining the straight option for other players.

 

Let's be reasonable here

no..you really missed the point.  No matter what Bioware does...someone will be upset about it.  So if there isn't any romance-able characters, then you solve the problem but removing the problem.

 

If people liked how romance worked in ME3 then keep it that way...how hard is that?  I do not want Bioware to ruin characters to appease gay gamers out there like they did to Kaidan and Anders (from Dragon Age).

 

To make everyone bi is just a stupid and blatant/lazy way of appeasing the dumb masses.  Make some straight some gay only some bi.  Yet even this approach certainly won't appease ppl like Daveliam because its too few gay/bi options.  >.< its impossible to please these people...

 

Remove Romance or just ignore it because I would rather have an awesome campaign than having the romances politically correct.

[Draining Dragon]

The trouble with "fairness" is that everybody has a different idea of what's fair.

[Milana]

If people liked how romance worked in ME3 then keep it that way...how hard is that?  I do not want Bioware to ruin characters to appease gay gamers out there like they did to Kaidan and Anders (from Dragon Age).

 

I dont understand those people that complain about changing Kaidan/Anders sexuality. It was never stated that they were straight. Yes they expressed interest in female characters only before( but you know a thing called bisexuality? and you know bisexual people doesnt mean attracted to everybody, they still have preferences besides sex, maybe apperarance, common interests and whatever else they find appealing to them.

 

And the fact is, that Kaidan may have been bisexual from the start( given the cut dialogues and they were actually voiced, cant say the same about Ashley), but Bioware seemed to chicken out. And in ME3 they finally made him available for males, since you know maybe James is too "straight looking" lol. Hope they will put away that stereotype for a new game.

[daveliam]

no..you really missed the point.  No matter what Bioware does...someone will be upset about it.  So if there isn't any romance-able characters, then you solve the problem but removing the problem.

 

If people liked how romance worked in ME3 then keep it that way...how hard is that?  I do not want Bioware to ruin characters to appease gay gamers out there like they did to Kaidan and Anders (from Dragon Age).

 

To make everyone bi is just a stupid and blatant/lazy way of appeasing the dumb masses.  Make some straight some gay only some bi.  Yet even this approach certainly won't appease ppl like Daveliam because its too few gay/bi options.  >.< its impossible to please these people...

 

Remove Romance or just ignore it because I would rather have an awesome campaign than having the romances politically correct.

 

Except the giant gaping flaw in your theory:  if you remove romance then all of the players who want romances will be upset about it.  It actually makes the number of players who are upset increase.  It does the opposite of what you want.

 

Also, good to know that Kaidan and Anders were 'ruined'.  Very telling.

 

Also, re-read what I wrote.  If I have two options (like in ME3), then I'm happy.  So you are blatantly incorrect in your statement about what will 'appease me'.  Either you can't understand what I'm saying or you are choosing to use hyperbole to make your point.  Either way, chiggity check yourself before trying to call me out on something that I never said. 

 

To make it very clear:  DA2 approach?  Fine.  DA: I/ME3 approach?  Fine.  BG2/KOTOR/SWTOR/JE/NWN/ME/ME2/DA: O approaches?  Not fine.  Why?  Because in the latter category, I get either zero or one option when others get multiple options.  It's not that complicated.

 

The trouble with "fairness" is that everybody has a different idea of what's fair.

 

Very true.

[Navasha]

Well, personally, I much prefer the player-sexual character route.    There are romances that I would have like to explore but never did simply because it required me playing a male character.    Ultimately I play the game for the full experience and not just the romances.   So having to muddle through playing a character I dislike just to experience the small romance part of the game I want to see tends to end in failure.  

[Grieving Natashina]

So, I've see we've hit the "LGBT content is politically correct" segment of the routine.  

 

LGBT+ romance content isn't considered "politically correct" in Canada.  They've had gay marriage for years now.  In fact, most Canadians I've seen sigh at what a big deal the rest of the Western world makes over the whole matter.  One poster memorably said that the idea of being against gay marriage in Canada is like being against interracial marriage, and a person would get laughed at for making it a huge concern.

 

In short, BioWare doesn't care what some countries think is PC, they care about making the content they want to make.  It's the same as any other company; they create the content not just based upon their fans, but what they think is right for their games.  I wouldn't want a company to feel forced to do any LGBT content due to some sort of desire to be politically correct.  BioWare does this because they want to and they feel it matters.

 

The majority of LGBT+ content in any BioWare game is minimal, and mostly avoidable.  I honestly don't see what the huge deal is.  If someone can't handle gay characters that might be a LI for someone else's game even existing, there is plenty of games to choose from.  I can even recommend some really good ones.

[mrjack]

no..you really missed the point.  No matter what Bioware does...someone will be upset about it.  So if there isn't any romance-able characters, then you solve the problem but removing the problem.

 

If people liked how romance worked in ME3 then keep it that way...how hard is that?  I do not want Bioware to ruin characters to appease gay gamers out there like they did to Kaidan and Anders (from Dragon Age).

 

To make everyone bi is just a stupid and blatant/lazy way of appeasing the dumb masses.  Make some straight some gay only some bi.  Yet even this approach certainly won't appease ppl like Daveliam because its too few gay/bi options.  >.< its impossible to please these people...

 

Remove Romance or just ignore it because I would rather have an awesome campaign than having the romances politically correct.

 

They didn't ruin Kaidan and Anders by making them bi, they just expanded on their characters and you didn't like it because you obviously have some issue with people who are not straight. What if one of your friends came out to you tomorrow and you previously had no idea? Would he be ruined?

 

As for appeasing the "dumb masses", which are we? A vocal minority that deserves fewer options than you or the dumb masses? If we're the masses, shouldn't our voices be heard?

 

DaveLiam is asking for a choice. He's not even asking for as much choice as you will inevitably get. That's too much for you though.

 

A game can be both awesome and diverse. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Though I understand why you don't want it in your game or even to be talking about it with me now; because you have always had everything catered to YOU and you like it that way.

 

Well tough sh-t.

[Milana]

I think there's probably just as many gay guys that look like James.

 

 

If he's meant to be the picture of machismo, then I'm completely out of touch.

I find Kaidan's looks much more appealing to me, than James's, face and body wise:)  But i wouldnt mind my male PC having such different choices to romance

[alienatedflea]

I dont understand those people that complain about changing Kaidan/Anders sexuality. It was never stated that they were straight. Yes they expressed interest in female characters only before( but you know a thing called bisexuality? and you know bisexual people doesnt mean attracted to everybody, they still have preferences besides sex, maybe apperarance, common interests and whatever else they find appealing to them.

 

And the fact is, that Kaidan may have been bisexual from the start( given the cut dialogues and they were actually voiced, cant say the same about Ashley), but Bioware seemed to chicken out. And in ME3 they finally made him available for males, since you know maybe James is too "straight looking" lol. Hope they will put away that stereotype for a new game.

so since its not explicit...that means a character could be gay? lol minus well put for example, Steve Cortez should have a title over his head in every scene saying "Gay LI" >.< really? Heck no.  Just because a character doesnt explicitly state their orientation...doesn't mean they are straight or gay or whatever.  I get that.  

 

But when Anders was the wise @ss/joker equivalent in Dragon Age Awakenings, but in DA2 he wasn't that at all.  He was a crybaby and a very emotional mess.  Exact opposite of what his character was in DA:A.  

 

Kaidan was a manly man in Mass Effect 1.  Now that doesnt mean gays/bis cannot be manly.  But yet again, in ME3, he was emotional little girl for most of ME3. 

 

My point is that I don't care about a character's sexual preferences but I do care that you fundamentally change the characters' personality by making them gay is wrong.

 

Another point against romance is that it limits content.  I didn't romance Cortez but I was interested in his backstory.  I dont want to romance someone to learn more about a character. Sex is sex.  Don't hide content behind doing the dirty deed is another thing I ask.

[Killdren88]

The trouble with "fairness" is that everybody has a different idea of what's fair.

 

What? 2/2/2? That's not fair! We need at least 2/4/2 for reparations of being oppressed over the years.