Bisexual/lesbian women aren't always automatically attracted to each other.
One thing I loved about the friendship between Josephine and Leliana. They had a very deep friendship and sister-like relationship and were never physically involved with each other, destroying that trope.
I felt the exact same way. I felt like the friendship was cut off right as it really started going. I know it's within character, but being told, "*** off" and knowing that I had to roll a male character and shag her felt like a little bit of lemon juice in a paper cut. It wasn't huge or earth-shattering, but it did sting a lot.
What made it unsavory was that her arc after that point was about, well, as TV tropes tones it down, "intimate psychotherapy". I prefer calling a spade a spade, but that's what it boils down to as content and it's pretty off-putting. It's why I've personally never played through the Jack romance. Even F!Shep's rapid and uncontrolled sexual harassment of Jacob looks like a winning achievement in workplace HR compared to that arc.
What bothers me was that they had a lot of her inner emotions and friendship locked behind a Magical Penis Wall that could only be breached by a Sheploo*. That has ground my gears since the first time I played the series.
*Yes, I meant for it to come out like that.
I agree. I think all the ME2 squad mates suffered from that if you couldn't or didn't want to romance them.
(Personally, I'm still really salty over not being able to talk to Zaeed on the ship).
I felt the exact same way. I felt like the friendship was cut off right as it really started going. I know it's within character, but being told, "F*ck off"; and knowing that I had to roll a male character; and shag her to progress with the friendship...felt like a little bit of lemon juice in a paper cut. It wasn't huge or earth-shattering, but it did sting a lot.
Yeah, with Jack, it was just kind of irritating because it presumed Shepard's motivation for trying to talk to her all the time and per the norm, Shepard lacked the capacity to explain herself. The only companion where this works and is funny and endearing is Mordin (of course), and made better by Shepard's possible response.
Wait a minute Mordin. You're just jerking me around aren't you?
Wouldn't dream…of mockery.
I do wish there was more friendship path content in ME2. Most conversations was cut off abruptly if you don't flirt/romance any one of them. Would love to talk more with Thane about the Siha thing.
And you need to be neutral to end the convo with Jack and then she's much more happy with you that way. Don't try to paragon-fix her and she'll be fine.
and wasn't Alistair being happily married to my Warden.... of course, there's that pesky Dark Ritual and magical pregnancy.
I agree. I think all the ME2 squad mates suffered from that if you couldn't or didn't want to romance them.
Garrus and Tali were just fine in my opinion. I liked Grunt's and Mordin's friendship and Miranda's was surprisingly not bad. In fact, I think Mordin is my favorite (non-returning) squadmate in ME2.
I fully agree about most of the rest. There is a squadmate I tend to avoid. Sadly, it's the most "normal" of the crew, Jacob. The breathy tone FemShep takes with Jacob turned my stomach. I tend to avoid him outside of his loyalty mission altogether, because Shep sounds pretty flirty against my will.
"I'd rather just talk for a bit." 
What made it worse for me personally is that Jacob is a family name, and the name of my youngest brother. That was a rather icky feeling. 
What made it unsavory was that her arc after that point was about, well, as TV tropes tones it down, "intimate psychotherapy". I prefer calling a spade a spade, hence healing ****, but that's what it boils down to as content and it's pretty off-putting. It's why I've personally never played through the Jack romance. Even F!Shep's rapid and uncontrolled sexual harassment of Jacob looks like a winning achievement in workplace HR compared to that arc.
Out of likes, but I completely agree with you. That just bugged the crap out of me.
I like what they did with Jack, I don't think it was perfect but I like that a LI can share things with the romanced PC that they wouldn't feel comfortable telling a friend. I do think they should have done more and had a friendship path but I don't think it should be exactly the same as a romance path. ie. LI sharing their deepest pain with someone outside the romance. Especially when it's the cause of them not wanting to get romantically involved.
I don't even think Jack being intimate with Shepard "fixes" her. It's having someone around who isn't out to simply use her and toss her. She is also isn't okay with someone trying to pull a "I'm gonna fix you" paragon bs. I think the suicide mission overall is what truly improves Jack, at least enough to head to Grissom academy where the real healing began.
I'm okay with a companion telling me to just "f*ck off" if I'm trying to do something they don't care for, regardless of my intent behind it.
I like what they did with Jack, I don't think it was perfect but I like that a LI can share things with the romanced PC that they wouldn't feel comfortable telling a friend. I do think they should have done more and had a friendship path but I don't think it should be exactly the same as a romance path. ie. LI sharing their deepest pain with someone outside the romance. Especially when it's the cause of them not wanting to get romantically involved.
That's totally fine. What's not fine is that Bioware basically went with rape as a backstory - and worse, it basically happened to her at every point in her life - that got "fixed" by sex with DudeShepard. Sharing things in a romantic relationship - great idea. Fixing someone's sex-based trauma with sex? Not so great.
I find it interesting how there basically isn't a friendship arc with Jack in 2, but in 3 she reacts to you like you're best friends. Or as close as she gets to that anyway.
Not that I'm complaining mind.
I find it interesting how there basically isn't a friendship arc with Jack in 2, but in 3 she reacts to you like you're best friends. Or as close as she gets to that anyway.
Not that I'm complaining mind.
the only solution to that was writing your own fanfiction. which is quite fine tbh
That's totally fine. What's not fine is that Bioware basically went with rape as a backstory - and worse, it basically happened to her at every point in her life - that got "fixed" by sex with DudeShepard. Sharing things in a romantic relationship - great idea. Fixing someone's sex-based trauma with sex? Not so great.
I know this is anecdotal, so take it as you will. I've known two women that were just like Jack in personality. They even had some really abusive and screwed up things happen to them since childhood. One of them did end up in a cult, and won't talk about it ever. They would end up in relationships and at first things would be fine. Great even.
However, one of the inevitable side effects of a relationship in general is that eventually you start relaxing and letting down your guard. That's not entirely a bad thing, but your past issues will come out. Happens to all of us. The problem for a "Jack" in my experience is that they find themselves uncomfortable because they start to feel like they are vulnerable. They came from an environment that made vulnerability a very dangerous thing. This leads to them driving the other person away, and they end up right back where they started emotionally. In many cases, even worse than before.
This is a personal account, so take it as you will. It bothered me that they romanticized such a relationship, when truth be told the "Jacks" in my life were better off keeping close friends until they got their head on straight. For the record, one did. She turned out great, but it took her years. She has two kids, lives in the central plains of the US, and is finally happy/healthy enough to be married to a great guy.
The other...did not, and is no longer apart of my life. One of them I had known since childhood, the other since I started high school.
That's totally fine. What's not fine is that Bioware basically went with rape as a backstory - and worse, it basically happened to her at every point in her life - that got "fixed" by sex with DudeShepard. Sharing things in a romantic relationship - great idea. Fixing someone's sex-based trauma with sex? Not so great.
Jack's backstory implies rape once. The purgatory prison story. And Jack's trauma wasn't even that. It's everyone using her and betraying her trust in various ways. It's her shyt childhood as a test subject and tortured by Cerberus. However, what seems to be Jack's true trauma is a time when she did allow someone into her heart and he got killed for her.
I don't know. I was always left with the impression that it was the years of isolation, forced conditioning to fight and the torture she did go through that was her big trauma. She never seemed like she was dwelling on a lost love, although she did seem to regret not having anyone she could trust.
I played the game less than 2 months ago.
I find it interesting how there basically isn't a friendship arc with Jack in 2, but in 3 she reacts to you like you're best friends. Or as close as she gets to that anyway.
Not that I'm complaining mind.
Jack loosened up between 2 and 3.
Jack loosened up between 2 and 3.
I agreed with Shep: "Complain all you like, but I think military life suits you."
I don't know. I was always left with the impression that it was the years of isolation, forced conditioning to fight and the torture she did go through that was her big trauma. She never seemed like she was dwelling on a lost love, although she did seem to regret not having anyone she could trust.
I played the game less than 2 months ago.
I read some info reading The Mess Perfect (from Epantira) on devianArt stating that Jack need red sand to sleep and control her biotic...
If you romance Jack she tells Shepard why she's reluctant to let her guard down and trust. It has to do with a guy she loved who got killed going back for her.
I'm not saying she wasn't traumatized by Cerberus. It's most likely the core of who she was and her mindset for along time. I'm saying that it seems like she was at a point of letting that trauma go(to the point of trusting someone) long before even meeting Shepard. Only to be brought right back into it with the death of her boyfriend.
I agreed with Shep: "Complain all you like, but I think military life suits you."
Pokes her. Whispers "Jennifer" in her ear. Runs away.
I read some info reading The Mess Perfect (from Epantira) on devianArt stating that Jack need red sand to sleep and control her biotic...
I heard about a cut quest where you had to go score some red sand for her. Wisely, the developers cut it out. If they had gone that route, I wouldn't have done the quest. That's way too close to home, and I never enjoy quests where you have to hook up drugs for someone in a semi-serious or serious setting.
Only to be brought right back into it with the death of her boyfriend.
I know I don't know the lore as well, so it's possible I missed something. I don't remember her lamenting about a boyfriend. I do remember her mentioning that her former partners (the rest of the little triad) ended up screwing her over. It's heavily implied that she ended up killing them because she was suspecting they would kill her first after the took her share of the take.
May I have a source as to what you're referring to?
Jack loosened up between 2 and 3.
Yes, but I was referring to a sense of acknowledged history that I didn't feel actually happened in game.
Yes, but I was referring to a sense of acknowledged history that I didn't feel actually happened in game.
They told us, but didn't bother showing us other than Jack popping up at the Academy. It was good to see her, but I wish I had see at least a little more of this character development that started in ME2 as a FemShep. 
Yes, but I was referring to a sense of acknowledged history that I didn't feel actually happened in game.
Doesn't need additional history, just history perceived with a different opinion by Jack.
She looks back on events with Shepard, realizes she could've been better about it, decides to rectify that by being a bit better upon reunion. The past becomes the good ol days and all is well.
If you romance Jack she tells Shepard why she's reluctant to let her guard down and trust. It has to do with a guy she loved who got killed going back for her.
I'm not saying she wasn't traumatized by Cerberus. It's most likely the core of who she was and her mindset for along time. I'm saying that it seems like she was at a point of letting that trauma go(to the point of trusting someone) long before even meeting Shepard. Only to be brought right back into it with the death of her boyfriend.
That's not accurate. When she escaped from her escape from the Cerberus lab, Jack mentions that she hitched a ride on a transport freighter, and that the crew used her, then sold her. Same with the subsequent event. These are two separate instances, and the former one implies quite a few people were involved.
More to the point, there's something just fundamentally wrong with the position that she was "only" raped once (she wasn't - it was some undefined multiple number of defines, depending on how many guards and crew you imagine during those instances) as somehow excluding her from the trope and all the issues it entails.
I know I don't know the lore as well, so it's possible I missed something. I don't remember her lamenting about a boyfriend. I do remember her mentioning that her former partners (the rest of the little triad) ended up screwing her over. It's heavily implied that she ended up killing them because she was suspecting they would kill her first after the took her share of the take.
May I have a source as to what you're referring to?
It comes out during her romance path, this conversation specifically.
Ya know what ME2 needed? some dropping off squad mate . Dropping off Zaeed , Garrus , Samara back on Omega . Dropping off Jack at the academy 
and so on...wouldve been nice , before ya hand over the Normandy . Ya had plenty of time .
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