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[In Exile]

Jack's backstory implies rape once. The purgatory prison story.  And Jack's trauma wasn't even that.  It's everyone using her and betraying her trust in various ways.  It's her shyt childhood as a test subject and tortured by Cerberus.  However, what seems to be Jack's true trauma is a time when she did allow someone into her heart and he got killed for her.

 

As I said in my previous post, it was actually "twice" (once on the transport escaping from the Cerberus base). And in the first time, it's implied it was done by multiple people. And to say this isn't serious enough because it didn't happen enough times...

 

But actually you raise a different point which I think is worth noting here. What happened to Jack - just the first serial rape - is so fundamentally horrible that it really, really messes people up. And handwaving it away is what makes it so bad, besides the intimate psychotherapy issues. 

[SardaukarElite]

Doesn't need additional history, just history perceived with a different opinion by Jack.

She looks back on events with Shepard, realizes she could've been better about it, decides to rectify that by being a bit better upon reunion. The past becomes the good ol days and all is well.

 

That's not what I'm getting at. My experience of Jack in most of my playthroughs of ME2 is occasionally dropping down to the hold and getting sworn at, I also helped her blow up a building once.

 

So when she turns up in ME3 and behaves like we have a history, I find it odd because I don't remember having much of one. Yes, I'm prepared to accept it happened off camera, I'm not saying it's wrong for her to act like this.

[Lady Artifice]

I forgot to address this:

 

I shouldn't have had to, is my point.  They neutered the friendship path for the sake of the romance.  Which was screwed up and wrong.  I didn't know about this, because I have never played a Sheploo.  You and some of the other posters were kind enough to point this out to me, and thank you.  

 

I don't feel like I should have had to romance her just to get her story.  What happens if you don't romance her is that she straight up tells you to "I'm not only a girl club.  I like you, let's leave it at that."  Girls club doesn't equal a romance.  What's worse for me is that if you try to talk to her after that as a friend, then "F*ck off" is the only response she'll ever give to you for the duration of the game while she's on the ship.

 

That bugs the crap out of me.  They should not have cut the friendship path off at the knees for the sake of the romance.  

 

That alway bugged me at the time. It just seemed out of place. She gave me a speech about being cool with me, and then it's "(expletive) off," when all I'm doing is checking in to see if she has new dialogue after story events. 

 

That was sometimes an issue in ME2, and in ME in general for that matter. I speak to Jacob Taylor, and the game seemed to have Shep adopt a flirtatious tone by default. It seemed to sometimes assume that whenever you were nice to someone, you were all over them, even if your character had no romantic interest. 

[AlexiaRevan]

That's not what I'm getting at. My experience of Jack in most of my playthroughs of ME2 is occasionally dropping down to the hold and getting sworn at, I also helped her blow up a building once.

 

So when she turns up in ME3 and behaves like we have a history, I find it odd because I don't remember having much of one. Yes, I'm prepared to accept it happened off camera, I'm not saying it's wrong for her to act like this.

Maybe the game pick the Paragon Jack for ME3 by default , kinda like they did with garrus . In Me1...I stopped him from killing Doc.heart yet in ME2 apparently he turn renegade by default....

[Hazegurl]

I forgot to address this:

 

I shouldn't have had to, is my point.  They neutered the friendship path for the sake of the romance.  Which was screwed up and wrong.  I didn't know about this until tonight, because I have never played a Sheploo.  You and some of the other posters were kind enough to point this out to me, and thank you.  

 

I don't feel like I should have had to romance her just to get the rest of her story.  What happens if you are playing a friendly FemShep is that she straight up tells you to "I'm not into a girl club.  I like you, let's leave it at that."  Girls club doesn't equal a romance, in the slang I'm familiar with.  

 

What's worse for me is that if you try to talk to her after that as a friend, then "*beep* off" is the only response she'll ever give to you for the duration of the game while she's on the ship.  That bugs the crap out of me.  They should not have cut the friendship path off at the knees for the sake of the romance.  

I agree that it sucks they didn't add a friend path but even if they did why should she tell the friend PC that?  I'm all for friend/romance paths but I would like them to be different to add some variety. You wouldn't tell your friend everything you would tell a lover and vice versa.  At least I wouldn't.  But yeah, I think they should have had a friend path. However, I also think that if the PC is trying to have a relationship and the companion is not interested, then it should be okay for them to cease contact. 

 

But I get what you're saying about the friend path getting cut.  I think my Sheploo told Jack he wasn't interested in her and got a "**** off" response. But then again I just see it as her not wanting to be buddies with someone who rejects her.

 

I guess overall, I prefer some amount of replay value or at least a friendship not being an almost carbon copy of a romance.  Like in DA2 when Anders tell MHawke about he and Karl but doesn't tell FHawke. I like little stuff like that because what a person may feel okay revealing to one person they may feel uncomfortable revealing to another.

[Grieving Natashina]

Anders and only revealing his sexuality to a M!Hawke is a very sore subject for me.  Considering that Thedas has zero issues with non-heterosexuality, it didn't make sense.  David Gaider apologized for doing that.  It accidentally added to the idea that bisexual men stay in the closet around women for fear of being "too gay."  There is other settings that an attitude like that would apply a little better.  In Thedas, it countered established lore for him to act like that.  I mean, geez...my Hawkes mercy killed/watched Anders mercy kill his lover and didn't know it.  After Act 1, and how much trust he already had to put into FemHawke, it didn't make a lick of sense.

 

David Gaider said from here on out, if a character has an important lover from of the same sex in their past, the writer (not just DG) would tell both genders about it.  Jack's lack of a good friendship path is one thing, and it was bad.  The way Anders was handled when it comes to Karl is another kettle of fish that irks me on a more personal level.  I know it's my thing and I should get over it.  I am, mostly.      That's about as much as I feel like talking about it for now.  I spoke my piece and then some last year about it.  

 

As for the rest of your post, sorry I'm out of likes still.  I completely agree with almost everything else you said.  It can be done pretty well.  Cassandra, for instance, only brings up her mage ex-boyfriend if you romance her.  That's fine by me, for the reasons you stated.  The writers were really good at making sure that the rest of her friendship path was solid though.  She's my favorite friendship in DA:I as a result.  

 

Edit: Why would they tell a friend that?  I don't know about you, but when I was younger and single (not married,) I was far more open with my friends than with my relationships.  I know other women that are just the same way.  If anything, I've personally seen that most people I've met tend to be more open with their friends in general than they are with many romantic relationships.

[Hazegurl]

As I said in my previous post, it was actually "twice" (once on the transport escaping from the Cerberus base). And in the first time, it's implied it was done by multiple people. And to say this isn't serious enough because it didn't happen enough times...

 

But actually you raise a different point which I think is worth noting here. What happened to Jack - just the first serial rape - is so fundamentally horrible that it really, really messes people up. And handwaving it away is what makes it so bad, besides the healing **** issues. 

I don't recall anything about her getting raped in the transport, not trying to say you're lying but I just don't recall that.  And I did not say that her getting raped wasn't important because of the number of times it happened.  I am simply saying that she doesn't have to be traumatized by it in the way that you want her to be because of it.  Which is fearful of intimacy with men or something.  Getting raped does not have the be the end all be all to the point where it it has to be the number one focus or it's a handwave. Jack obviously handled it her own way, by killing the guys who did it.

[KaiserShep]

Ya know what ME2 needed? some dropping off squad mate . Dropping off Zaeed , Garrus , Samara back on Omega . Dropping off Jack at the academy and so on...wouldve been nice , before ya hand over the Normandy . Ya had plenty of time . 

That would've been nice actually, especially considering that ME2 gives you the ability to play post-campaign. I wish the Normandy was still a wreck though. 

[In Exile]

I don't recall anything about her getting raped in the transport, not trying to say you're lying but I just don't recall that.  And I did not say that her getting raped wasn't important because of the number of times it happened.  I am simply saying that she doesn't have to be traumatized by it in the way that you want her to be because of it.  Which is fearful of intimacy with men or something.  Getting raped does not have the be the end all be all to the point where it it has to be the number one focus or it's a handwave. Jack obviously handled it her own way, by killing the guys who did it.

 

That's fair re: not remembering. I actually didn't remember the prison part at all, and had to look it up to confirm. I just remembered a nebulous "multiple times", which I think was tied to the fact that it was implied it was a "crew-wide" thing. 

 

I don't "want" her to be traumatized (that's ridiculous - why would you even accuse me of it?), and if you actually look up what impact rape has on women, it's typically not fear of intimacy or fear of men. Putting aside the fact that she doesn't kill that crew (as far as I recall), it actually ties in with how she ends up in that romantic triad, why she ends up in that romantic triad, and how she deals with all of this stuff. 

 

I think you're really confused about my position, so let me back up.

 

1. Jack has a lot of rape as a backstory. That messes her up, intimacy wise.

2. She slowly begins to piece herself together, including by being part of a new romantic relationship.

3. Her romantic partner dies, further messing her up. She's left with: people who use and abuse her, and people who she feels will abandon her.

4. Shepard cures all of that by (1) not using and abusing her (i.e., the sex before the SM); and (2) assuaging the dying fears. 

 

This is all the intimate psychotherapy trope. I think you're under the impression I'm putting a lot more weight on the fact that Jack was raped than I actually am. 

[Grieving Natashina]

Hey guys, don't be like me and say the F-bomb like I had in previous posts.  This is apparently very bad, so if you quoted me, edit your post now.   I wasn't given the same chance.  

[Hazegurl]

Anders and only revealing his sexuality to a M!Hawke is a very sore subject for me.  Considering that Thedas has zero issues with non-heterosexuality, it didn't make sense.  David Gaider apologized for doing that.  It accidentally added to the idea that bisexual men stay in the closet around women for fear of being "too gay."  There is other settings that an attitude like that would apply a little better.  In Thedas, it countered established lore for him to act like that.  I mean, geez...my Hawkes mercy killed/watched Anders mercy kill his lover and didn't know it.  After Act 1, and how much trust he already had to put into FemHawke, it didn't make a lick of sense.

 

David Gaider said from here on out, if a character has an important lover from of the same sex in their past, they would tell both genders about it. Jack is one thing, and it was bad.  The way Anders was handled when it comes to Karl is another kettle of fish that irks me on a more personal level.  I know it's my thing and I should get over it.  I am, mostly.      That's about as much as I feel like talking about it for now.  I spoke my piece and then some last year about it.  

 

As for the rest of your post, sorry I'm out of likes still.  I completely agree with everything else you said.  It can be done pretty well.  Cassandra, for instance, only brings up her mage ex-boyfriend if you romance her.  That's fine by me, for the reasons you stated.  The writers were really good at making sure that the rest of her friendship path was solid though.  She's my favorite friendship in DA:I as a result.  

 

Edit: Why would they tell a friend that?  I don't know about you, but when I was younger and single, I was far more open with my friends than with my relationships.  I know other women that are just the same way.  If anything, I think most people tend to be more open with their friends in general than they are with many romantic relationships.

IMO, I think Gaider's problem is making Thedas a bit too accepting of gay relationships because whenever he wants to add little touches like with Zevran asking the warden if he has a problem with m/m sex, Anders and Karl,  or Dorian's quest people will call him out on it and it would make sense to do so because Thedas is not a homophobic place.  But I will say that, at the time, neither MHawke nor FHawke were romancing him.  It's just something he just kinda throws on ya. I actually see Anders telling MHawke about Karl as his way of testing the waters and letting his interest in men known early on as well as MHawke's reaction to see where they stood.  At least that's how I headcanon it and I admit it requires forgetting about how accepting Thedas is.

[AlexiaRevan]

That would've been nice actually, especially considering that ME2 gives you the ability to play post-campaign. I wish the Normandy was still a wreck though. 

I know right ? instead...ya get a cutscene of everyon fixing the Normandy..then the next time ya see your baby... ...the Alliance tore it apart...ugh....That was mah ship! stole it fair and square! 

[Hazegurl]

That's fair re: not remembering. I actually didn't remember the prison part at all, and had to look it up to confirm. I just remembered a nebulous "multiple times", which I think was tied to the fact that it was implied it was a "crew-wide" thing. 

 

I don't "want" her to be traumatized (that's ridiculous - why would you even accuse me of it?), and if you actually look up what impact rape has on women, it's typically not fear of intimacy or fear of men. Putting aside the fact that she doesn't kill that crew (as far as I recall), it actually ties in with how she ends up in that romantic triad, why she ends up in that romantic triad, and how she deals with all of this stuff. 

 

I think you're really confused about my position, so let me back up.

 

1. Jack has a lot of rape as a backstory. That messes her up, intimacy wise.

2. She slowly begins to piece herself together, including by being part of a new romantic relationship.

3. Her romantic partner dies, further messing her up. She's left with: people who use and abuse her, and people who she feels will abandon her.

4. Shepard cures all of that by (1) not using and abusing her (i.e., the sex before the SM); and (2) assuaging the dying fears. 

 

This is all the intimate psychotherapy trope. I think you're under the impression I'm putting a lot more weight on the fact that Jack was raped than I actually am. 

Fair enough, I wasn't trying to accuse you of anything, it just seemed like that was your point.

 

I guess we just have different opinions of it, because I don't believe for a moment Sheploo "cures" her through sex/relationship.  Or that her rape back story is what messes her up when it comes to intimacy.  It seems like her intimacy issues is due to her isolation and torture at the Cerberus facility and then running into people who seem to prove her right, which includes her rapists.  They seem to just be more people who prove her right.

 

 All but her boyfriend. The fact that she opened up enough to trust and fall in love with someone means that some of her trauma and trust issues could have been resolved  before even meeting Shepard. Only for him(boyfriend) to die which makes her fear trusting again. Letting down her guard and feeling again.

 

If you have casual sex with her, friendship is done. She hates you.

If you prove you want more than just sex out of her, she opens up. 

 

Shepard living through the SM most likely does aide in relieving her of those fears but this is something we don't even see until ME3 when she has had a constant positive influence in her life at Grissom. 

 

So I think that Her boyfriend + Shepard Romance + The Kids at Grissom is what helps Jack.   

[Lonely Heart Poet]

I don't care if the romances are ALL GAY, My problem is, that everyone seems to be free JUST FOR ME TO PICK. No families, huh? No jealous girl- or boyfriend around? Oh, no one has ever checked that Thane's fine ass out!
I actually always liked when character hinted that they had something going on. For example when Jacob hinted their history with Miri or when I tried to hear more about Feros from Liara (and then I found out from the comics that it was only a friendship. Boooring).

[Bayonet Hipshot]

All this discussions about romances just reinforces my stance on it:- Romances in Bioware games have gotten too complicated and too artificial. 

 

The solution is to return to the roots. Keep it simple and keep it organic. No unnecessary romance arc quests to get your potential love interest something to get them to spread their legs for your character and get experience points for it. 

 

Just have it develop over the course of the main plot instead of creating an entire side plot for it, using dialogue and some cutscenes and have no experience points for it. Like in ME1. Now that's optional. There was no side quest to get Liara or Ashley or Kaidan something, there was no flirting dialogue every time you conversed with them and after a certain point in the main game, you are locked in on one of the potential love interest via a cutscene and few dialogue choices. 

 

The phrase that I am looking for is: "Cherry on the top of the cake". Yep, that's what romances should be. Something to top off the entire a game, not a sizeable or noticeable chunk of the game itself.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Well, I learned a lot about Jack in the most unlikely place. Usually I'm the one telling her off and wouldn't romance her if I was paid, so I had a lot of gaps in her backstory.

[daveliam]

All this discussions about romances just reinforces my stance on it:- Romances in Bioware games have gotten too complicated and too artificial. 

 

The solution is to return to the roots. Keep it simple and keep it organic. No unnecessary romance arc quests to get your potential love interest something to get them to spread their legs for your character and get experience points for it. 

 

Just have it develop over the course of the main plot instead of creating an entire side plot for it, using dialogue and some cutscenes and have no experience points for it. Like in ME1. Now that's optional. There was no side quest to get Liara or Ashley or Kaidan something, there was no flirting dialogue every time you conversed with them and after a certain point in the main game, you are locked in on one of the potential love interest via a cutscene and few dialogue choices. 

 

The phrase that I am looking for is: "Cherry on the top of the cake". Yep, that's what romances should be. Something to top off the entire a game, not a sizeable or noticeable chunk of the game itself.

 

I actually support the idea of streamlining the romances and making them less formulaic.  It really has fallen into:  "Have a few discussions about the characters past" (Check)  "Click the little heart icon when it shows up" (Check)  "Repeat until you get a sex/romance scene and the achievement goes off" (Check)  [/end]

 

I tend to appreciate the way that they were prior to DA2.  I'd like them to feel a bit more natural.  I definitely don't need little heart icons.  But, unfortunately, I think they are here to stay because people complain when it's not made explicitly clear that they are flirting with a character.  I understand to a degree (I got ninjamanced by Ashley, Liara, and Leliana more times that I'd like to admit), but it takes a little something away for me. 

[Tayah]

I actually support the idea of streamlining the romances and making them less formulaic.  It really has fallen into:  "Have a few discussions about the characters past" (Check)  "Click the little heart icon when it shows up" (Check)  "Repeat until you get a sex/romance scene and the achievement goes off" (Check)  [/end]

 

I tend to appreciate the way that they were prior to DA2.  I'd like them to feel a bit more natural.  I definitely don't need little heart icons.  But, unfortunately, I think they are here to stay because people complain when it's not made explicitly clear that they are flirting with a character.  I understand to a degree (I got ninjamanced by Ashley, Liara, and Leliana more times that I'd like to admit), but it takes a little something away for me. 

What really bugs me is that there's no more real content, no more talking, interacting or anything after you get that sex/romance scene or you get to the no romance scene on friendship paths and they suddenly stop. I'd like to keep talking please. I didn't stop being interested in say... their opinions, stories and what not just because we decided to be lovers/friends. In fact now I want to chat more not less... okay at least as much as before.

 

I think the heart icons are here to stay as well but really having a tooltip like in DAI would work instead anyway. Interact however up until the point of locking in the relationship type and if it's a romantic option when you hover over a lock in dialogue response the game tells you... no ninjamance at that point and no endless hearts with (not*) flirty options leading up to it.

 

*Many of the flirt options in DAI were just nice dialogue options rather than flirts to me.

[daveliam]

What really bugs me is that there's no more real content, no more talking, interacting or anything after you get that sex/romance scene or you get to the no romance scene on friendship paths and they suddenly stop. I'd like to keep talking please. I didn't stop being interested in say... their opinions, stories and what not just because we decided to be lovers/friends. In fact now I want to chat more not less... okay at least as much as before.

 

I think the heart icons are here to stay as well but really having a tooltip like in DAI would work instead anyway. Interact however up until the point of locking in the relationship type and if it's a romantic option when you hover over a lock in dialogue response the game tells you... no ninjamance at that point and no endless hearts with (not*) flirty options leading up to it.

 

*Many of the flirt options in DAI were just nice dialogue options rather than flirts to me.

 

Agreed to all of this.

 

Particularly crappy with regard to post-sex scene content is the fact that we now have prominent NPCs as LIs.  If you happen to choose one of them, you really get shafted, because you can't even bring them with you on quests in order to simulate additional dialogue with your LI. 

[eyezonlyii]

I actually support the idea of streamlining the romances and making them less formulaic.  It really has fallen into:  "Have a few discussions about the characters past" (Check)  "Click the little heart icon when it shows up" (Check)  "Repeat until you get a sex/romance scene and the achievement goes off" (Check)  [/end]

 

I tend to appreciate the way that they were prior to DA2.  I'd like them to feel a bit more natural.  I definitely don't need little heart icons.  But, unfortunately, I think they are here to stay because people complain when it's not made explicitly clear that they are flirting with a character.  I understand to a degree (I got ninjamanced by Ashley, Liara, and Leliana more times that I'd like to admit), but it takes a little something away for me. 

Yeah, count me as part of the "au natural' romance crowd. I really hate the heart button. With a passion. It just seems so...well stupid. I mean, I guess I like the "emotion" icons, but even those I can live without, but the giant, "YOU'RE FLIRTING NOW!!!" neon signpost is really distracting.

[SardaukarElite]

I tend to appreciate the way that they were prior to DA2.  I'd like them to feel a bit more natural.  I definitely don't need little heart icons.  But, unfortunately, I think they are here to stay because people complain when it's not made explicitly clear that they are flirting with a character.  I understand to a degree (I got ninjamanced by Ashley, Liara, and Leliana more times that I'd like to admit), but it takes a little something away for me. 

 

I like the heart (and other) icons because I prefer to think of dialogue as selecting a course of action over the actual words my character speaks. If I'm talking to Cas then I want to attempt futile flirting, and the heart clearly marks that.

[eyezonlyii]

they should also change up where on the wheel the dialogue is. I don't want to hit up-left the entire game until I get to a scene. Make me at least pretend I'm working for it!

[Lady Luminous]

You know, I'm sure you all think I'm ridiculous, but I actually like the heart and emotion icons. 

 

Oftentimes the synopsis is really bad, and my character will say something completely different than I expect them to. At least with a clue to the nature of the dialogue I know what to expect. And oftentimes, without the heart icon I would pick one of the other options simply because I preferred the phrasing and then I'd probably stupidly lock myself out of a romance. 

 

I am glad though that you can turn the icons off.

[eyezonlyii]

You know, I'm sure you all think I'm ridiculous, but I actually like the heart and emotion icons. 

 

Oftentimes the synopsis is really bad, and my character will say something completely different than I expect them to. At least with a clue to the nature of the dialogue I know what to expect. And oftentimes, without the heart icon I would pick one of the other options simply because I preferred the phrasing and then I'd probably stupidly lock myself out of a romance. 

 

I am glad though that you can turn the icons off.

   

 

well then...

[Draining Dragon]

I miss the time when the full text of a dialogue option was shown and it was on the player to figure out which option to pick to advance the romance.