Probably the same ones who listened to Kaidan's "Losing you was like losing a limb" speech in ME2 and thought, "That's absolutely not the dialogue of a bisexual man. At all."
Does Ashley also say this line? I remember those two had a lot of the same/similar dialog in that scene. I just took it as the writers being somewhat cheap. It was like how Kaidan was wearing Ashley's armor at the beginning of the game.
I recall Kaidan was far angrier then Ash.Does Ashley also say this line? I remember those two had a lot of the same/similar dialog in that scene. I just took it as the writers being somewhat cheap. It was like how Kaidan was wearing Ashley's armor at the beginning of the game.
On the Bioware writer's front: I don't think any of them are chained to desks, but I also think that if they were suddenly to want to make some game with a straight, white brodude main character there would be intense backlash. It seems highly unlikely they would want to do that at this point, but they have definitely built up a set of expectations, which they deviate from at their peril.
I recall Kaidan was far angrier then Ash.
If I remember right a lot of Kaidan fans were upset because they considered this scene sort of OCC: Kaidan being forced into a plot wedge that Ashley was meant to occupy.
But it's been years ago so my memory is probably bad.
*Edit* Cooling it now. My posts are stacking up too much.
Probably the same ones who listened to Kaidan's "Losing you was like losing a limb" speech in ME2 and thought, "That's absolutely not the dialogue of a bisexual man. At all."
On the Bioware writer's front: I don't think any of them are chained to desks, but I also think that if they were suddenly to want to make some game with a straight, white brodude main character there would be intense backlash. It seems highly unlikely they would want to do that at this point, but they have definitely built up a set of expectations, which they deviate from at their peril.
I can understand that, but my point is that they want to do it. So they're not being forced to do it, right? If they created a character where the main character was a straight white brunette scruffy guy with a raspy voice and all of the romances were sexy white ladies, I could very easily see the fanbase going WTF?!? since that's not really what they're known for. But that doesn't mean that they are forced to avoid that. It means that they've created a reputation because that's the direction that the company has chosen to go.
I guess, think of it this way: What if CD Projekt decided to make a companion game that was based in the The Witcher setting, but didn't follow the source material. With their own original plot and characters. If they did that and the character was a gay man and had two hunky, sexy-dressed and sometimes nude/nearly-nude male LI's, wouldn't many of their fans have a similar reaction? Does that mean that they are being forced to not do this?
The analogy is a little off because TW is based on source material and bioware games aren't, but you get my drift, right? Choosing to create a type of content, building up a reputation for that content, and then having your fans expect to see more of that content isn't the same the thing as being 'forced' to create that content. Right?
To me, Kaiden/Shepard was obviously a thing since that first slow, walk intense staredown cutscene they have - you know, where Kaiden sensually wipes the sweat off his brow?
If seen porn that's more subtle than that scene.
Exactly. Waaaaay before ME3 ever came out, my 'canon' Shep was 'headcanoned' into having a pining, unfulfilled romance with Kaidan where neither was comfortable expressing it but they both clearly were into each other. And it took very, very little headcanoning to make that happen.
Have we ever seen any evidence that the developers are being 'forced' to write romances to fill quotas? I mean, we've seen multiple interviews from several staff members across different IPs talk about how they want to do this, but have we ever seen even a single writer say that they are forced to do it? I guess you could spin some of Gaiders comments, if taken acontextually, to mean this, but that's all I can think of.
I just find it amusing how people seem to think that the Bioware writers are chained to desks and whipped unless they write X# of gay romances when every piece of evidence that we have suggests it's the opposite.
It's apparently what BSN uses when they don't like something.
On the Bioware writer's front: I don't think any of them are chained to desks, but I also think that if they were suddenly to want to make some game with a straight, white brodude main character there would be intense backlash. It seems highly unlikely they would want to do that at this point, but they have definitely built up a set of expectations, which they deviate from at their peril.
That's true of basically any trend though. When BioWare first moved away from typical RPGness people vocally objected, and the complaints are still being made. There is a running battle in this forum going over the E3 trailer defying some people's expectations about what music an ME trailer can have.
The difference seems to be that some people identify some complaints as political and then complain about that as well.
Here is an idea...2/2/2/1 (Straight/bi/gay/pansexual) so 6 organics and a synthetic romantic option (something similar to Bicentennial Man). I mean since yall are trying to be fair to player choice. Idk if people were interested in seeing a romantic/intimate/closer relationship with Legion but for all intents and purposes, Tali was just a shy step away from romancing a synthetic since she is always in her suit and we never really did see her face (Photoshopped pic doesn't cut it).
What do yall think?
Here is an idea...2/2/2/1 (Straight/bi/gay/pansexual) so 6 organics and a synthetic romantic option (something similar to Bicentennial Man). I mean since yall are trying to be fair to player choice. Idk if people were interested in seeing a romantic/intimate/closer relationship with Legion but for all intents and purposes, Tali was just a shy step away from romancing a synthetic since she is always in her suit and we never really did see her face (Photoshopped pic doesn't cut it).
What do yall think?
I don't personally have an issue with a synthetic romance. It's not my cup of tea personally, but there were a bunch of people who were interested in EDI, so there's a market for it.
S/he could be any orientation as far as I'm concerned, but pansexual would make the most sense given that s/he would probably not care what gender/sex/orientation combination their partner was since s/he's synthetic and all.
I can understand that, but my point is that they want to do it. So they're not being forced to do it, right? If they created a character where the main character was a straight white brunette scruffy guy with a raspy voice and all of the romances were sexy white ladies, I could very easily see the fanbase going WTF?!? since that's not really what they're known for. But that doesn't mean that they are forced to avoid that. It means that they've created a reputation because that's the direction that the company has chosen to go.
I guess, think of it this way: What if CD Projekt decided to make a companion game that was based in the The Witcher setting, but didn't follow the source material. With their own original plot and characters. If they did that and the character was a gay man and had two hunky, sexy-dressed and sometimes nude/nearly-nude male LI's, wouldn't many of their fans have a similar reaction? Does that mean that they are being forced to not do this?
The analogy is a little off because TW is based on source material and bioware games aren't, but you get my drift, right? Choosing to create a type of content, building up a reputation for that content, and then having your fans expect to see more of that content isn't the same the thing as being 'forced' to create that content. Right?
I agree with you 100%. I'm just pointing out even with people *wanting* to go in a direction it doesn't mean they can't feel intense pressure from built up expectations. So sure, they aren't chained to desks, but pressure from the expectations can sure make it a daunting prospect to deviate from whatever road they set out on. The existence of that pressure to me also means you (rhetorical you) can't really claim they are free to whimsically write whatever pops into their heads either.
It's not an either/or situation. I think their reality is somewhere in the middle of "I want to do this" and "we have expectations of pushing the bar on representation issues so how do I concoct something that does this?" Of course, it's also completely true that they are on the middle like this for every issue from the dialog system to lore. It's just the social representation thing has RL political ramifications so people pick on it more.
All this discussions about romances just reinforces my stance on it:- Romances in Bioware games have gotten too complicated and too artificial.
The solution is to return to the roots. Keep it simple and keep it organic. No unnecessary romance arc quests to get your potential love interest something to get them to spread their legs for your character and get experience points for it.
Just have it develop over the course of the main plot instead of creating an entire side plot for it, using dialogue and some cutscenes and have no experience points for it. Like in ME1. Now that's optional. There was no side quest to get Liara or Ashley or Kaidan something, there was no flirting dialogue every time you conversed with them and after a certain point in the main game, you are locked in on one of the potential love interest via a cutscene and few dialogue choices.
The phrase that I am looking for is: "Cherry on the top of the cake". Yep, that's what romances should be. Something to top off the entire a game, not a sizeable or noticeable chunk of the game itself.
I do like the idea of a relationship that just grows over time. Talking to them, learning about their past, laughing, maybe arguing about something, like couples do. Please no gifts. (yes I'll use them but it's more fun without them). And while ME1 is my top favorite romantic sex scene ever, 
I loved hearing Kaidan mention waking him up before leaving the room in ME3
And I'm also a great fan of the talking to your LI whenever you want, except in the middle of a fight. Kissing Alistair was funny and sweet, with the comments if you had someone else with you, and going to talk to Cullen whenever I want is super sweet. Yes, Iron Bull too, he makes me laugh, so combining stuff throughout the game would be nice.
I've heard many many complaints over the years about Carth and Raven, but that romance, to me was great. They teased each other, "man-feelings"; argued a bit and laughed. It's also what I liked about Bastilla with the "kinrath pup" comparison.
I don't care if there is a war going on or the world is being destroyed or attacked by demons. Humans have a sense of humor that helps get us through disasters during those moments between explosions.
That was sometimes an issue in ME2, and in ME in general for that matter. I speak to Jacob Taylor, and the game seemed to have Shep adopt a flirtatious tone by default. It seemed to sometimes assume that whenever you were nice to someone, you were all over them, even if your character had no romantic interest.
This is when I started to get the feeling Shepard was no longer mine. ME1 Shepard would never had used that tone with someone she had just met. I did end up doing Jacobs romance, with the sound turned off. But then after ME3 I went back and deleted it. Poor Jacob.
I agree with you 100%. I'm just pointing out even with people *wanting* to go in a direction it doesn't mean they can't feel intense pressure from built up expectations. So sure, they aren't chained to desks, but pressure from the expectations can sure make it a daunting prospect to deviate from whatever road they set out on. The existence of that pressure to me also means you (rhetorical you) can't really claim they are free to whimsically write whatever pops into their heads either.
It's not an either/or situation. I think their reality is somewhere in the middle of "I want to do this" and "we have expectations of pushing the bar on representation issues so how do I concoct something that does this?" Of course, it's also completely true that they are on the middle like this for every issue from the dialog system to lore. It's just the social representation thing has RL political ramifications so people pick on it more.
I think that this is the frustration that Gaider was dealing with in some his rants. He wants to write those stories but gets frustrated at the scrutiny that they receive so it takes some of the joy out of it.
Frankly, as much as people here try to make it seem worse than it is, this problem is a good one to have. There are enough people who are invested (emotionally and financially) in the content that your company puts out that you feel obligated to continue to keep them happy so that they continue to buy your products. Not a bad place to be, all things considered.
every charachter was pushed when you think about it . I wanted to be friend with kaidan and he end up as a Vromance and ask me to choose between him......and Liara....
I did have this happen once. I think it might have been the 1st play through when I wanted to know everything about everyone so I talked to Liara and I talked to Kaidan and suddenly Liara showed up and I choose Kaidan. It made me laugh, but after that I was a lot more cautious with my talking and it was really irritating. 
I don't want to have to romance someone to learn about them.
I remember an option where Kaidan asked about a rumor that Shepard was interested in Liara and I was able to say not true or yep, I'm interested in the Dr. It's been a while and I can't remember if there was an option to tell Liara your not interested but there should have been one.
I've heard many many complaints over the years about Carth and Raven, but that romance, to me was great.
I also don't get the high levels of Carth hate. Of course, the last time I played KotoR I was like 19 so my LI tastes have likely changed. He might get on my nerves now, but my memories are good ones.
(Even my 14 year old self didn't like Anomen though.)
Probably the same ones who listened to Kaidan's "Losing you was like losing a limb" speech in ME2 and thought, "That's absolutely not the dialogue of a bisexual man. At all."
I wanted my Sheploo to kiss Kaidan right at that moment. *sigh*
I recently had a play through where I used the save editor to put my Shepard and Kaidan together and I got the full romantic dialogue between them, voice overs, hugs, and everything. Sadly the letter Kaidan writes refers to Shep as a woman. lol! Overall, I think I prefer them pining over each other with subtle dialogue until ME3. I'm sort of glad they did cut the relationship out in ME1 because it feels more special for them to hook up in ME3 but oh man could you still cut that tension with a knife.
As for romances in general. I think I would like to see companions get together without waiting for a PC lock in as well. I wouldn't mind a situation of stealing someone's lover away and being the bad guy in that regard. It feels sort of unnatural that every LI is just single and waiting for you to pick them before dating each other. I was kinda disappointed that Miranda and Jacob was in the past. It would have been have nice if that spontaneous kiss was done while she was with Jacob.
I think that this is the frustration that Gaider was dealing with in some his rants. He wants to write those stories but gets frustrated at the scrutiny that they receive so it takes some of the joy out of it.
Frankly, as much as people here try to make it seem worse than it is, this problem is a good one to have. There are enough people who are invested (emotionally and financially) in the content that your company puts out that you feel obligated to continue to keep them happy so that they continue to buy your products. Not a bad place to be, all things considered.
It's true, but if it becomes too stressful you risk writer burnout and/or writers developing an active resentment for the fandom, which (IMO anyway) increasingly seems to be the case with a lot of Bioware people who interact with the public these days.
*Edit* Much as a I love it when they do, sometimes I wish they would interact with fandom less because a lot them just seem to get bitter when they do too much.
I did have this happen once. I think it might have been the 1st play through when I wanted to know everything about everyone so I talked to Liara and I talked to Kaidan and suddenly Liara showed up and I choose Kaidan. It made me laugh, but after that I was a lot more cautious with my talking and it was really irritating.
I remember an option where Kaidan asked about a rumor that Shepard was interested in Liara and I was able to say not true or yep, I'm interested in the Dr. It's been a while and I can't remember if there was an option to tell Liara your not interested but there should have been one.
There is. She explicitly states she has feelings for you and you are presented with a yes/no choice. However, it might be possible to get her romance into some sort of active state by something subtle in earlier conversations. If that's the case, and Kaidan's dialogs are more progressed than hers, it's probably possible to trigger the love triangle scene before Liara's "I have feelings for you" scene comes up.
This is when I started to get the feeling Shepard was no longer mine. ME1 Shepard would never had used that tone with someone she had just met. I did end up doing Jacobs romance, with the sound turned off. But then after ME3 I went back and deleted it. Poor Jacob.
I share your sentiments about Shepard. I was fine with Shepard having their own personality to a degree, sure. I'm not one who wants the character to be this vague shell for me to stuff whatever head canon I please into. I want head canon, sure, but I also like making it work within the context of the lore and the character's story.
But my default Shep was loyal to Kaidan. That coy little smirk she adopted around Jacob completely irked me.
I don't share your sympathy for Jacob. 
He bores me to pieces, just as much as Kaiden bores a lot of other people.
You know, if they were to do a remastered trilogy, I'd be fine with Jacob being entirely written out of it. Or rewritten for it. Not that I'd campaign for it or anything...
<shrug> I don't know. I found Captain Kirk's policy of "If it looks like a human woman, I'll shag it" was more creepy. Plus, how can we forget Data's off and on thing with Tasha Yar/cloned Tasha?
Now that was squicky to me. One person has no emotions or a sex drive, and the other is a human woman or a cloned human woman combined with alien DNA. It took a weird love drug/magic/whatever alien ploy that got the plot going that week in order for them to hook up the first time.
I never watched TOS but agree about Data lol
I also don't get the high levels of Carth hate. Of course, the last time I played KotoR I was like 19 so my LI tastes have likely changed. He might get on my nerves now, but my memories are good ones.
(Even my 14 year old self didn't like Anomen though.)
LOL I turned the sound off when Anomen was talking, no matter what he was saying it grated on my ears. I never did any of the romances back when I played BG. I did like Valen in NW though. But KOTOR, JE and all the more recent BW games have spoiled me for other games with their romantic characters and really I hope they never stop including them.
I was 53 when I played KOTOR in 2003. I adored Carth, Totally understood his distrust, and loved his sense of humor. 
I did have this happen once. I think it might have been the 1st play through when I wanted to know everything about everyone so I talked to Liara and I talked to Kaidan and suddenly Liara showed up and I choose Kaidan. It made me laugh, but after that I was a lot more cautious with my talking and it was really irritating.
I remember an option where Kaidan asked about a rumor that Shepard was interested in Liara and I was able to say not true or yep, I'm interested in the Dr. It's been a while and I can't remember if there was an option to tell Liara your not interested but there should have been one.
Its the opposite..I have no Interest in Kaidan at all . I though Talking to him will open a friendship path . Instead he was hitting on me..dunno if it was a bug in my Game . But I tried all reply and no matter what...he end up coming for the choice between him and Liara . Well unless you choose the angry reply..wich was like a jerk.....I didnt like it .
So like Jacob.....I just walk by and never talk to him...no more akward! 
I share your sentiments about Shepard. I was fine with Shepard having their own personality to a degree, sure. I'm not one who wants the character to be this vague shell for me to stuff whatever head canon I please into. I want head canon, sure, but I also like making it work within the context of the lore and the character's story.
But my default Shep was loyal to Kaidan. That coy little smirk she adopted around Jacob completely irked me.
I don't share your sympathy for Jacob.
You know, if they were to do a remastered trilogy, I'd be fine with Jacob being entirely written out of it. Or rewritten for it. Not that I'd campaign for it or anything...
Jacob rewritten would be fine for me. Get rid of the romance option and make him a friend and re-work that tone during the first few conversations. I actually found him a good friend but it was irritating having to go through the cat in heat route to get there.
every charachter was pushed when you think about it . I wanted to be friend with kaidan and he end up as a Vromance and ask me to choose between him......and Liara....
the thing is.. I find its more annoying when Liara suddenly decide she's in love with Shepard after the Feros mind meld thing. I could spend the whole game flirting heavily with Kaidan but if you did Virmire last and you talk to her again (some convo about it being her first time) the game would skip the confrontation and choose Liara for me. It happened to me today... lol... .... just no.
the flirt icon in DA2 and DAI is a life-saver.
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