2503 réponses à ce sujet

[KR96]

Right. Because if Ashley is allowed to not pull from 'general soldier' data, but from 'young woman' data, then why can't the m/m LIs just pulls from 'gay/bisexual man' data instead of 'total human population' data?

Basically, if you are okay with 4/4 of the female human squad members being young, gorgeous, straight, and single, then you should be okay with 2 bisexuals, a gay man, and a lesbian being among the crew.

I felt Ashley wasn't young, or feminine, at all. I believe she was somewhere in her late twenties, which seems like an average army age to me, and I may be picky and that respect, but she wasn't all that gorgeous to me. I feel that Ashley could very well have been pulled from a database of female soldiers.

Miranda is a different story, obviously, but your use of stats in this case doesn't really add up.

[daveliam]

Ashley is in her 20's. She's young. And while she might not be your cup of tea, she was clearly designed to be attractive. Look at her ME3 design.

The point is that it's malarkey to demand real world demographics in one instance and ignore it when it benefits you. If the sexuality data must be representative of real world data then so should the female LIs. After all, it might ruin MY immersion to have so many gorgeous young women running around in their squad of 'the best in the galaxy'.

[WildOrchid]

ME3 Ashley.

They completely ruined her.

[SardaukarElite]

Right. Because if Ashley is allowed to not pull from 'general soldier' data, but from 'young woman' data, then why can't the m/m LIs just pulls from 'gay/bisexual man' data instead of 'total human population' data?

 

Okay, the point I was trying to make was that I don't think Ashley being as she was was quite as ridiculously improbably as I thought you were making it out to be. I don't know about the rest of the world but last year I saw a whole battery of military ads targeting high school graduates and women specifically - so I was putting forth the notion that hypothetical gender equal future would probably have a reasonable number of women like Ashely in the lower ranks.

 

I'm not actually trying to argue that it makes more sense than BioWare distribution of sexualities, nor was I actually disputing your point. I won't push it further.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Okay, the point I was trying to make was that I don't think Ashley being as she was was quite as ridiculously improbably as I thought you were making it out to be. I don't know about the rest of the world but last year I saw a whole battery of military ads targeting high school graduates and women specifically - so I was putting forth the notion that hypothetical gender equal future would probably have a reasonable number of women like Ashely in the lower ranks.

 

I'm not actually trying to argue that it makes more sense than BioWare distribution of sexualities, nor was I actually disputing your point. I won't push it further.

 

Well, his point wasn't that there isn't/wouldn't be women like Ashley in the military or even that there aren't/wouldn't be a sizeable number of women like her in the military, it's that out of every possible soldier in the Alliance how likely is it that the sole survivor your run into on Virmire is young, female, generally attractive, single, and interested in men? Especially when out of all the archaelogists in the world, the one you run into is also young, female, generally attractive, single, and interested in men, ditto with whatever Tali's purpose in ME1 was because I can't recall. Even just removing the female point since we have an equal number of male squadmates, surely one out of three women chosen at random ought to be in a relationship and probably one of them would not being conventially attractive. His point is that people only want to point out "realism" when it supports things they don't like being a negative, but they don't point it out when it doesn't support things they do like.

[dgcatanisiri]

The realism argument just doesn't hold weight for me for so many reasons.  The limitation of the game mechanic is an important one and one that gets hand-waved away.  They have to include at least:  1 straight man, 1 straight woman, 1 bisexual man, 1 bisexual woman, 1 gay man, and 1 lesbian OR 2 straight men, 2 straight women, 2 gay men, and 2 lesbians in order for everyone to get 2 choices in their romance option.  Of course it's an artificial restriction, just like the five dozen other artificial restrictions that game developers need to account for.  Why does this particular one get so much hate?

 

I'll give you another example:  why are the vast majority of squad members attractive, within Shep's general age range (or their species equivalent of it), and/or single?  Some combination of at least two of those?  It's super unrealistic to expect that, but it's the case and I rarely see people complaining.

 

Squad that fit at least 2 of those criteria:  Ashley, Kaidan, Liara, Garrus, Wrex, Tali, Miranda, Jacob, Thane, Jack, Samara, Morinth, Kasumi, James

 

Squad that doesn't:  Mordin (not attractive and 'older'), Grunt (not attractive and 'younger'), Zaeed (not attractive and 'older'), Legion (an AI), EDI (an AI)

 

That's 7 out of 8 humans who are attractive, young, and single.  It's totally unrealistic, but no one seems to complain.  Why is that?  I'm going to wager a bet that it's because they are all available for straight PC's except for one of them.  (With the James one-night-stand add in with the Citadel DLC, they are literally all available for straight Sheps with the exception of Kasumi.......)

 

Not to mention that there's a very simple fact: ALL romances are ALL playersexual, particularly in Mass Effect. All of them. All the romances will be interested in having a relationship with Shepard, regardless of morals, attitudes, actions, or even appearance. Nothing Shepard does, short of not flirting with them (and in a couple of cases, not even that), prevents them from being attracted to Shepard, with the exception of Thane and Tali, who need their loyalty missions completed successfully for Shepard to romance them. Even then, none of Shepard's other actions will have an effect on them willing to have a romance with Shepard.

 

Even in Dragon Age, where characters do have crisis points, where they'll leave the party if they are dissatisfied enough, will still have these characters willing to have a relationship with the Warden/Hawke/the Inquisitor, regardless of anything that they might or might not have in common. Morrigan will fall in love with a goody-two shoes Warden. DA2 had rivalmances, Cassandra, a potential candidate for Divine, has no problems dating an apostate elf or qunari who doesn't believe in her god.

 

And then there's the fact that you can make your PC stunningly beautiful or ugly as sin, and it makes no difference. I mean, does aesthetic attraction not play even a small part in willing to have a relationship with someone? The simple fact is, there's not always going to be a reason for these characters to be willing to have a relationship with the PC, but they're still an option. The romances are always playersexual. The romances in DA2 were just all bisexual.

[SardaukarElite]

His point is that people only want to point out "realism" when it supports things they don't like being a negative, but they don't point it out when it doesn't support things they do like.

 

I agree with the point, I was just questioning how low the proportion necessarily was (with various assumptions I felt reasonable). I acknowledge my tendency to follow tangents like this is often not helpful.

[aoibhealfae]

So a character should be bisexual because he/she is a fan of a certain person? Right...

If you watched Paragon Lost and read Mass Effect Conviction, Vega isn't just a die-hard Normandy fan. He's quite excessive with his admiration and loyalty for Shepard, even after Cerberus and the Bahak incident. I think he's a character who was clearly intended to be a potential LI for both Sheps... and then they scrapped this and gave the romance arc to Iron Bull... 

 

And I like the idea of him flirting with BroShep... since its bad enough that you need a mod to make him stop auto-flirting with FemShep... 

[daveliam]

Okay, the point I was trying to make was that I don't think Ashley being as she was was quite as ridiculously improbably as I thought you were making it out to be. I don't know about the rest of the world but last year I saw a whole battery of military ads targeting high school graduates and women specifically - so I was putting forth the notion that hypothetical gender equal future would probably have a reasonable number of women like Ashely in the lower ranks.

 

I'm not actually trying to argue that it makes more sense than BioWare distribution of sexualities, nor was I actually disputing your point. I won't push it further.

 

Sorry if my post came off snarky, because that was totally not what I intended.  It was more about building off your point to continue demonstrating how silly the 'real world demographic' argument is. 

 

Plus, if we can imagine a world where there is a 'gender equal future' then we can imagine a world where LGBT people make up more than current demographics.  In fact, studies that have looked at the number of the LGBT identifying people have shown that the number is increasing over time (including that flawed CDC study that people love to trot out).  So why is it unbelieavable for there to be 4 LGBT people in the PC's crew given that data?

 

Well, his point wasn't that there isn't/wouldn't be women like Ashley in the military or even that there aren't/wouldn't be a sizeable number of women like her in the military, it's that out of every possible soldier in the Alliance how likely is it that the sole survivor your run into on Virmire is young, female, generally attractive, single, and interested in men? Especially when out of all the archaelogists in the world, the one you run into is also young, female, generally attractive, single, and interested in men, ditto with whatever Tali's purpose in ME1 was because I can't recall. Even just removing the female point since we have an equal number of male squadmates, surely one out of three women chosen at random ought to be in a relationship and probably one of them would not being conventially attractive. His point is that people only want to point out "realism" when it supports things they don't like being a negative, but they don't point it out when it doesn't support things they do like.

 

Yeah, this is totally what my point is.  And it's a ridiculous point but that's why I'm making it.  Because I find the 'but there's just no believable way for 4 LGBT people to be in the PC's inner circle' argument to be equally ridiculous. 

 

Not to mention that there's a very simple fact: ALL romances are ALL playersexual, particularly in Mass Effect. All of them. All the romances will be interested in having a relationship with Shepard, regardless of morals, attitudes, actions, or even appearance. Nothing Shepard does, short of not flirting with them (and in a couple of cases, not even that), prevents them from being attracted to Shepard, with the exception of Thane and Tali, who need their loyalty missions completed successfully for Shepard to romance them. Even then, none of Shepard's other actions will have an effect on them willing to have a romance with Shepard.

 

This has always been a sticking point for me.  In Bioware games across the board (well, at least after BG2, that is).  I think that whenever your PC has a belief system that is opposed to the LI's belief system, there needs to be one of two approaches:  either you convince your LI to take your stance and you see their beliefs and attitudes change over time OR the romance becomes strained and it ends.  And, maybe, in a few cases, there could be a 'we'll have to agree to disagree on this' arc, but that has to be for more minor things.  Like, it wouldn't work for a Shep who sides with the Geth and is romancing Tali.  Or a blood mage, pro-templar Hawke romancing Anders.

[kitcat1228]

They kinda do this in DAI with Sera. She doesn't like elves so you have a harder time romancing her as a elf than say a quari. If you do romance her as an elf near the end of the game you have to tell her you don't believe in the elven Gods or she breaks up with you.

[daveliam]

They kinda do this in DAI with Sera. She doesn't like elves so you have a harder time romancing her as a elf than say a quari. If you do romance her as an elf near the end of the game you have to tell her you don't believe in the elven Gods or she breaks up with you.

 

I didn't know that.  I've only ever played one Femquisitor and she was a dwarf and all about that Blackwall!

 

I don't hate it, not going to lie. 

[SardaukarElite]

Plus, if we can imagine a world where there is a 'gender equal future' then we can imagine a world where LGBT people make up more than current demographics.  In fact, studies that have looked at the number of the LGBT identifying people have shown that the number is increasing over time (including that flawed CDC study that people love to trot out).  So why is it unbelieavable for there to be 4 LGBT people in the PC's crew given that data?

 

Definitely. I figure if there's pressure in society on people being seen as straight then the numbers will always be somewhat off, though how off is probably a complex debate.

 

---

 

The way I tend to look at it is the romance options in a BioWare game typically represent the entire pool of people the character can fall in love with as depicted by the game(s). So, it makes sense that they'll find a couple of options that have a compatible sexuality. Limitations of scope mean that those people also double up as major characters.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

I didn't know that.  I've only ever played one Femquisitor and she was a dwarf and all about that Blackwall!

 

I don't hate it, not going to lie. 

 

Oh, you're missing out. She dumps Lavellan if Lavellan doesn't denounce her Dalish faith after What Pride Has Wrought.

[daveliam]

Oh, you're missing out. She dumps Lavellan if Lavellan doesn't denounce her Dalish faith after What Pride Has Wrought.

 

I mean, I can understand why people would find that annoying, but I don't mind it, personally.  I kind of like the idea of one of the LI's not putting aside all of their beliefs for the PC. 

 

Sera's an interesting gal.  Warts and all. 

[WildOrchid]

Be nice y'all, don't want to see Sera hate here too.

[FKA_Servo]

I mean, I can understand why people would find that annoying, but I don't mind it, personally.  I kind of like the idea of one of the LI's not putting aside all of their beliefs for the PC. 

 

Sera's an interesting gal.  Warts and all. 

 

I like this too. This is exactly the sort of thing I'd like to see more of in romances.

 

It comes up a lot, but I think the hammiest, weakest part of the Bioware romances is that you can romance someone who is ideologically or philosophically opposed to your PC in every way.

[N7Jamaican]

We're talking about Ashley?  She's always been ugly, and ME3 made her worse.  I've just romanced Liara everytime I played ME1.

[Steelcan]

eww, Ashley

[RINNZ]

Who's Ashley again?

...

Ooooooh, right. The girl i left behind on Virmire. Good times.

[PhroXenGold]

We're talking about Ashley?  She's always been ugly, and ME3 made her worse.  I've just romanced Liara everytime I played ME1.

 

I thought she was reasonably attractive in the first game (though certainly not as nice as Liara), but god she's hideous in ME3.

[dreamgazer]

Who's Ashley again?

Spoiler

Cid Shepard romances her in ME1, but ditches her for Jack in ME2 and never looks back.

[Boost32]

What was your Shepard like? I've never been able to decide between my paragon Sentinel and my paragade Engineer for which I consider my "canon" play through.

Can I talk about mine too?

Male; Spacer (because its the only bg that you can talk with your family); War Hero (badass bg); Engineer; romanced Liara through the trilogy; Renegade and Destroy ending.

[The Elder King]

My Canon Shep was Spacer/War Hero, Sentinel, romanced Miranda, Paragade, Control *activates Tech Armour*