2503 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

As long as the straight romances aren't as bad as they were in DA:I I don't really care

[KR96]

These two sentiments contradict each other. If you don't really care what happens as long as your PC has friends, then why do you care if they "jam in" the "bi's and gay's" just so "that no one will feel bummed out"?

No, they don't. The fact that I don't care whether my character has a relationship or not doesn't mean I should be a fan of said methods of adding extra gay and bi LI. I never said I didn't care about the romance system as a whole, I merely explained that I don't care if my character ends up with any of the other characters.

[MissMayhem96]

Just give me a male human romance option and I will be alright. BioWare please...please do not make Drack (the krogan) a romance at all!

Tumblr would absolutely love to have a Krogan romance from what I have seen.

[daveliam]

@KR96

 

Well then, I guess I should expect to see you complaining that the next game that they put out with ZERO s/s LIs (which, btw, could easily happen again as the last one that had this was only released 3 1/2 years ago) is "shoving heterosexuality in your face" since its unrealistic for there to be more than about 90% straight people and some of those LIs would be 'extra', right......?

[Steelcan]

Tumblr would absolutely love to have a Krogan romance from what I have seen.

the r34 artists would have a field day

[KR96]

@KR96

I wasn't really referring to any one poster specifically. To your point, though, it's kind of off base. The squad members aren't meant to be a representative pool of the total population, right? I mean, no one small sample is meant to be fully representational, so who cares if it's slightly skewed. Where I work, there are 10 people on my team (my work is not associated with any one gender or orientation) and there are 8 straight women and 2 gay guys. Just how it worked out. Is it representational? Of course not. Is it realistic? Of course it is. My point is this. If they have 6 LIs and, in order to give everyone 2 choices, there are 4 LGBT characters and 2 straight ones on the LI list, who cares? Everyone is getting the same number of options. It's not meant to be representational. Plus, it's a game where people want to have sex with aliens. So having a higher than real world representational of LGBT characters isn't a big deal, right?

Let me start by saying I appreciate being able to have a decent discussion on this board, without things going all bananas, so thanks for that.

Secondly, you're completely correct of course in saying that it is entirely possible that it turns out the way that there are two bi characters, two straight, and two gay. And again, though I may have painted a picture that I would be against them adding Bi and/or gay LI's, I'm not. I just don't feel like forcefully adding them to the game, as was done with Kaidan (did I spell his name right?) for instance. I absolutely adored the path they chose in DA:I for Dorian (gay, for those who may not be aware). His story, background and sexual orientation made perfect sense and I felt that he was one of the better characters for it. But I just felt it was awkward that Iron Bull was bi, though I must admit that I didn't go down that road so am not an expert on the subject, and just didn't fit the character (He made me feel like I was watching Kevin Spacey in House of Cards, who's bi/gay relations I'm not convinced of).

If they can add characters like Dorian whose sexual orientation fits perfectly with who they are, rather than who people want them to be, then I'll gladly accept 50 bi's, 70 gays and 3 straights. However with the way Bioware has added them in over several games, I'm just not convinced they'll pull it off.

[KR96]

@KR96

Well then, I guess I should expect to see you complaining that the next game that they put out with ZERO s/s LIs (which, btw, could easily happen again as the last one that had this was only released 3 1/2 years ago) is "shoving heterosexuality in your face" since its unrealistic for there to be more than about 90% straight people and some of those LIs would be 'extra', right......?

I'm sorry if my arguments came across this way, but please read my previous post, maybe my actual meaning will be a little clearer.

[Lady Luminous]

Let me start by saying I appreciate being able to have a decent discussion on this board, without things going all bananas, so thanks for that.

Secondly, you're completely correct of course in saying that it is entirely possible that it turns out the way that there are two bi characters, two straight, and two gay. And again, though I may have painted a picture that I would be against them adding Bi and/or gay LI's, I'm not. I just don't feel like forcefully adding them to the game, as was done with Kaidan (did I spell his name right?) for instance. I absolutely adored the path they chose in DA:I for Dorian (gay, for those who may not be aware). His story, background and sexual orientation made perfect sense and I felt that he was one of the better characters for it. But I just felt it was awkward that Iron Bull was bi, though I must admit that I didn't go down that road so am not an expert on the subject, and just didn't fit the character (He made me feel like I was watching Kevin Spacey in House of Cards, who's bi/gay relations I'm not convinced of).

If they can add characters like Dorian whose sexual orientation fits perfectly with who they are, rather than who people want them to be, then I'll gladly accept 50 bi's, 70 gays and 3 straights. However with the way Bioware has added them in over several games, I'm just not convinced they'll pull it off.

 

I don't understand why having Bull be bi isn't fitting. He can still be himself and still be attracted to men or fall for specific men like the Inquisitor.

 

I mean, I love Dorian but I feel like you're saying you're only okay with him because he's sort of the standard for what we know as gay portrayal in the media. 

[daveliam]

@KR96

 

My only issue with the idea that you put forward is that it seems to rely on the idea that a character has to have a reason to be gay/bi or they feel like 'extra' to you.  My sexuality has little to do with my work.  Its part of who I am, sure, but I don't breath and live all things gay (despite how it seems on BSN).  Using your description, if I were a character, you'd deem me as 'forced' because my sexuality doesn't seem to fit with my 'story'.  Your comments just veer too close to 'gay guys have to be like THIS and bi guys have to be like THIS' for my comfort. 

 

 

I guess my point is this, if a straight character can just be straight and that's that, why can't be the case for gay characters?  Who cares how many characters there are as long as the LI pool gives multiple options for everyone?  Some LGBT characters will have stories that relate to their sexuality.  Others won't.  Both are fine and neither are inherently 'forced' or 'crammed in' or 'extra'.  

[KR96]

I don't understand why having Bull be bi isn't fitting. He can still be himself and still be attracted to men or fall for specific men like the Inquisitor.

I mean, I love Dorian but I feel like you're saying you're only okay with him because he's sort of the standard for what we know as gay portrayal in the media.

Sorry, but this is downright laughable. I have plenty of friends who are gay and can judge each of them to be excellent characters. I don't need media standards for that, thank you very much.

Moreover I said that I felt it was awkward and hence I believed it to be an unconvincing performance. I never claimed he can't be bi because he's a tough guy, and I must also concede that my interpretation is definitely not always the right one, so perhaps he could have been a convincing bisexual after all.

I just think that Dorian was a character who was open in this respect and his orientation improved his character. Are these double standards? Definitely. Does this make my opinion less valid? I hope not.

[mrjack]

Uh, yes? I'm sorry but if give or take 10% of the people are gay, then the odds of them being present in the game at some point should empirically be lower than a group of people which comprises of 90 percent. This is basic stats, not limiting someone's option, or worse yet, forcing everyone to be bi because people may feel left out. I find that a little revolting to be honest.

 

I find you to be a little revolting.

 

Same-sex romance isn't enjoyed by only gay/bi people. Bioware have the metrics on this that prove it is far more valuable to the the wider player base than you're making it out to be. It makes good business sense to include it. I personally wouldn't buy a game if it included romance but no same-sex option. I don't expect the gaming industry to bow to my every desire but I can make a stand with my wallet. This is why I haven't played Alpha Protocol or Bound by Flame.

 

Even if that were not the case, it would still be a noble goal to include diversity in gaming. ALWAYS getting stuck with the shitty end of the stick because you're in a minority sucks. And the stupid thing is is that the majority of gamers belong to at least one minority. You may never have had to make concessions and play games that didn't cater exactly to you but most of us did. Now that we're getting thrown the SMALLEST of morsels when it comes to representation, YOU are complaining that WE are being pandered to when in reality 90% of games are made just to make you happy.

[Lady Luminous]

Sorry, but this is downright laughable. I have plenty of friends who are gay and can judge each of them to be excellent characters. I don't need media standards for that, thank you very much.

Moreover I said that I felt it was awkward and hence I believed it to be an unconvincing performance. I never claimed he can't be bi because he's a tough guy, and I must also concede that my interpretation is definitely not always the right one, so perhaps he could have been a convincing bisexual after all.

I just think that Dorian was a character who was open in this respect and his orientation improved his character. Are these double standards? Definitely. Does this make my opinion less valid? I hope not.

 

I said media because Dorian's a video game character, but I see where my point could have been misconstrued. I could certainly have rephrased.

 

I personally thought that Bull was very convincing, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. 

 

It seems that you are having trouble getting your points across; not that your opinions aren't valid, but people here do seem to be misunderstanding your position. 

[Hellion Rex]

At this point, as long as everyone gets two decent options, I can live with it.

[Hellion Rex]

It does feel a little bit like, "Well in order for their sexuality to be believable, they must meet the socially constructed stereotypes of gays and lesbians." Iron Bull doesn't fit the stereotype of a person who would f*ck another man, ergo he isn't believable. Whereas, Dorian is incredibly flamboyant and "pretty" - so everything is A-Okay there. 

 

One could argue, then, that Cassandra's heterosexuality isn't believable since she isn't an overly feminine girly girl trouncing around in dresses and wearing perfumes and makeup. 

 

Doesn't make sense. People are sexually turned on by any number of things, irregardless of the inflections in their voices, their body type, their hairstyles, their line of employment, and more. 

You have got to be kidding me.

[Lady Luminous]

It does feel a little bit like, "Well in order for their sexuality to be believable, they must meet the socially constructed stereotypes of gays and lesbians." Iron Bull doesn't fit the stereotype of a person who would f*ck another man, ergo he isn't believable. Whereas, Dorian is incredibly flamboyant and "pretty" - so everything is A-Okay there. 

 

One could argue, then, that Cassandra's heterosexuality isn't believable since she isn't an overly feminine girly girl trouncing around in dresses and wearing perfumes and makeup. 

 

Doesn't make sense. People are sexually turned on by any number of things, irregardless of the inflections in their voices, their body type, their hairstyles, their line of employment, and more. 

 

Exactly what I was getting at. Well said, and thank you!

[mrjack]

Sorry, but this is downright laughable. I have plenty of friends who are gay and can judge each of them to be excellent characters. I don't need media standards for that, thank you very much.

Moreover I said that I felt it was awkward and hence I believed it to be an unconvincing performance. I never claimed he can't be bi because he's a tough guy, and I must also concede that my interpretation is definitely not always the right one, so perhaps he could have been a convincing bisexual after all.

I just think that Dorian was a character who was open in this respect and his orientation improved his character. Are these double standards? Definitely. Does this make my opinion less valid? I hope not.

 

Do your gay "friends" know that you advocate the exclusion of content in gaming that they would find appealing because they make up a minority of players and are therefore less valuable as consumers?

 

Or that you hysterically think that a gay person has to be flamboyant like Dorian and can't possibly be a meathead like Bull?

[KR96]

@KR96

My only issue with the idea that you put forward is that it seems to rely on the idea that a character has to have a reason to be gay/bi or they feel like 'extra' to you. My sexuality has little to do with my work. Its part of who I am, sure, but I don't breath and live all things gay (despite how it seems on BSN). Using your description, if I were a character, you'd deem me as 'forced' because my sexuality doesn't seem to fit with my 'story'. Your comments just veer too close to 'gay guys have to be like THIS and bi guys have to be like THIS' for my comfort.


I guess my point is this, if a straight character can just be straight and that's that, why can't be the case for gay characters? Who cares how many characters there are as long as the LI pool gives multiple options for everyone? Some LGBT characters will have stories that relate to their sexuality. Others won't. Both are fine and neither are inherently 'forced' or 'crammed in' or 'extra'.

I concede your point, and confess that I was too blunt in my assertions. I'm sorry if I insulted or disrespected anyone with my statements.

True, one should never need justification for their sexual orientation, and yes it should be possible for anyone to be gay/bi. However over the course of Bioware games I have inherently felt that the issue of having gay and bi LI's was added through popular demand, not because it was a logical thing to do. And even though it was wrong of me to state that a gay or bi orientation may feel forced because it isn't justified, it does feel like some characters are made gay/bi in service to the community, rather than because it is an inherent part of their character.

[daveliam]

@KR96

 

I'll put it this way:  Iron Bull is a believable bisexual because he'll have sex with both men and women.  That's really the only requirement and he meets it.  There's nothing outside of that one criterion that would break his credibility as bisexual.  Does that make sense?

[Lady Luminous]

You have got to be kidding me.

 

Why are you so incredulous?

[Br3admax]

Gay and bisexual people being there and wanting to sleep with you is believable. Having them in anyway equal or greater number isn't. Considering that this is what fair seems to mean here, no. Having "fair" romances isn't believable. That isn't to say that Shepard's harem was believable. It definitely wasn't. 

[Br3admax]

Why are you so incredulous?

Because acting like a woman in our society should act has absolutely nothing to do with sexuality, if I had to take a guess? 

[Zehealingman]

Alright, let's say the leaks are true then we'll have 7 squadmates.
There'll probally be 1 straight male and 1 straight female, both human.( Ash and Kai.. Kae... you know/ Miranda and Jacob/ Cassandra and Cullen ) Down to 5

BW likes to make "special" characters. (Cole, Legion, etc ...) But there's probally only going to be one. Down to 4.

Now, according to the leaks/the trailer we have a krogan. I doubt that he'll be a LI. Down to 3

So now what? 2 gay 1 bi? 3 bi?

Meh, who knows, maybe we'll have mayor romances with crewmates. (Steve, Cullen, Josi, Sam, ... ) Maybe there are going to be more squadmates.

But the important question here's:

Will we get our dwarf romance this time? #Teamharding