2503 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Why are you so incredulous?

The fact that you have to ask makes my point for me.

[Hellion Rex]

No matter the direction they take, people will always have a problem with waifus

Something I think we can all agree on lol.

[Lady Luminous]

The fact that you have to ask makes my point for me.

 

No, it really doesn't. All it shows is that you're a poor communicator. 

[KR96]

I find you to be a little revolting.

Good way to start a constructive argument, thanks for that.

Same-sex romance isn't enjoyed by only gay/bi people. Bioware have the metrics on this that prove it is far more valuable to the the wider player base than you're making it out to be. It makes good business sense to include it. I personally wouldn't buy a game if it included romance but no same-sex option. I don't expect the gaming industry to bow to my every desire but I can make a stand with my wallet. This is why I haven't played Alpha Protocol or Bound by Flame.

Perfectly valid opinion, and I do understand that people would like to explore more romance options than their own orientation, and I never argued against making that possible. I do believe however that it would be strange to have this 2/2/2 division going on just because of the fact that people want that, it just doesn't make empirical sense. And I know this doesn't always have to be the case, but this is my opinion on that matter, which I believe I am allowed to express, correct?

Even if that were not the case, it would still be a noble goal to include diversity in gaming. ALWAYS getting stuck with the shitty end of the stick because you're in a minority sucks. And the stupid thing is is that the majority of gamers belong to at least one minority. You may never have had to make concessions and play games that didn't cater exactly to you but most of us did. Now that we're getting thrown the SMALLEST of morsels when it comes to representation, YOU are complaining that WE are being pandered to when in reality 90% of games are made just to make you happy.

Absolute class, you would make a fine demagogue one day. What smallest morsel am I denying you? The fact that I'm expressing I just didn't feel it made sense that there were so many gays and bi's whilst they are a minority? Shoot me.

[KR96]

@KR96

I'll put it this way: Iron Bull is a believable bisexual because he'll have sex with both men and women. That's really the only requirement and he meets it. There's nothing outside of that one criterion that would break his credibility as bisexual. Does that make sense?

Fair and true point.

[Br3admax]

...And how should they act?

I'm not here to tell people "how they should act." The point is, it's completely believable that Cassandra likes to **** dudes, and considering that's the definition of heterosexuality when you are a woman, her heterosexuality is also believable. There are woman out there who love dresses and are still very much lesbian. So while most of what you said was fine, in that stereotypes are stupid, the part where you tried to say a convincing argument could be made for Cassandra totally went against the rest of it. To put it bluntly, it made absolutely no ******(haha) sense, hence Eluvinus' response. 

[daveliam]

@KR96

 

I think you are confusing two different things here.  The 2/2/2 split isn't necessarily for 'equality'.  It's because that's the minimum amount that will allow everyone to get 2 options. 

 

I've seen people (in this thread, I think) put forward support for the DA: O approach of 2 straight, 2 bisexual LIs.  Of course, that leave gay and lesbian players with one option only when others get a choice.  That sucks.

 

2/2/2 allows everyone to get 2 options.  That's the main purpose of it.  If straight guys get more options above that?  Well, I'll grumble about it, but I expect it.  Same thing for straight women.  I just don't want to see it drop to less than 2 options for gay people because it would break other people's immersion to have 'so many' gay characters.  I, frankly, don't care about other player's immersion.  I care about getting my money's worth and two options give me greater replay than one option.

[Scofield]

Have 1 male an 1 female romance-able by any gender much like DA2, an focus more heavily on the story of the relationship, tie it into the plot etc etc

 

I dont much care about the sexual orientation of characters, but well if the story is good, be it male or female, i will want to experience and explore it, hence why i would prefer them to cut the amount  of romance characters as a whole in there games an focus more on the story of them.

 

I always feel doing a romance in a BioWare game is like a check box an that's not nice tbh

[KR96]

Do your gay "friends" know that you advocate the exclusion of content in gaming that they would find appealing because they make up a minority of players and are therefore less valuable as consumers?

Or that you hysterically think that a gay person has to be flamboyant like Dorian and can't possibly be a meathead like Bull?

I really like your style, you have this great way of keeping a discussion objective and clean without involving anyone personally in any way, chapeau!

And I firmly believe they would understand my viewpoint. Most of my friends who are gay are either really flamboyant or pretty silent guys, none of them really meatheads, which must have clouded my judgement (and for this I have already apologized, but I'll start an on demand service soon by the looks of it).

Am I cutting them out on content? I don't know. I'd much rather have them scale back on the romance angle altogether, because it's been pretty flawed for a couple of games now (although that was mostly DA:I in my opinion). I would just like the staff working on this game to write the game they want to play, and the characters they want to experience, not the ones the community wants to romance.

[o Ventus]

I was cool with how DA2 handled it, DAI not so much with their skewed and bloated number. Focus the resources on a small number of romances available to everyone.

"Skewed and bloated number"? What?

[KR96]

I always feel doing a romance in a BioWare game is like a check box an that's not nice tbh

That's how I feel as well, and the fact that everyone needs to be able to check this box at least twice just adds to that in my opinion.

[Scofield]

yeah, romance arcs are like DA2 tbh, in that they comes in 3 acts for the most part

 

That's how I feel as well, and the fact that everyone needs to be able to check this box at least twice just adds to that in my opinion.

[Br3admax]

Am I cutting them out on content? I don't know. I'd much rather have them scale back on the romance angle altogether, because it's been pretty flawed for a couple of games now (although that was mostly DA:I in my opinion). 

 

How are DA:I romances worse than the abominations produced by ME2? Jack had the best romance out of anyone in that game. And it was about 2 minutes long. 

[Akrabra]

Have to agree with Br3admax on that one. Mass Effect 2 romances are way short. Garrus romance is about the same.

[KR96]

@KR96

I, frankly, don't care about other player's immersion. I care about getting my money's worth and two options give me greater replay than one option.

Maybe I should concede my whole argument as a whole regarding this division, as I understand that it could mean a lot to those who truly appreciate this feature. On the other hand I still get this checkbox feeling, sorry for stealing that one from someone completely uninvolved in this discussion by the way, that people simply have to be able to check to get their money's worth.

Atlhough I value your opinion, I find it worrying to see that it is necessary to have at least two romance options for you to get your money's worth out of the game, rather than you wanting to get this satisfaction through exploration, combat or storytelling, which are the true spearpoints of Mass Effect in my opinion.

[Scofield]

All the more reason to limit the options to 1 of each gender an put all resources into them 2 instead of spreading them out across say 4/5 or 6

[KR96]

How are DA:I romances worse than the abominations produced by ME2? Jack had the best romance out of anyone in that game. And it was about 2 minutes long.

You can add that one to the list if you want, but I felt quite comfortable with the characters and their romances their, especially as they (should have) carried on in ME3.

[KaiserShep]

Personally I'm not that concerned about fairness, so long as the quality of the companions' writing is good. 

[mrjack]

Good way to start a constructive argument, thanks for that.


Perfectly valid opinion, and I do understand that people would like to explore more romance options than their own orientation, and I never argued against making that possible. I do believe however that it would be strange to have this 2/2/2 division going on just because of the fact that people want that, it just doesn't make empirical sense. And I know this doesn't always have to be the case, but this is my opinion on that matter, which I believe I am allowed to express, correct?


Absolute class, you would make a fine demagogue one day. What smallest morsel am I denying you? The fact that I'm expressing I just didn't feel it made sense that there were so many gays and bi's whilst they are a minority? Shoot me.

 

You started with the word "revolting"

 

This is basic stats, not limiting someone's option, or worse yet, forcing everyone to be bi because people may feel left out. I find that a little revolting to be honest.

 

As for your objection to 2/2/2 as not making empirical sense, you're overvaluing what that term means. Empirically (based on observation), you may not see the value in equal representation but rationally (based on reason) we know it has far more value than mere numbers suggest.

 

Even if the numbers game was all that mattered, your argument would have no weight because games, like all forms of media, are not representative of the real world we live in.

 

If you care so much that LGBT characters should only make up 10% of the game characters because you believe (debatable) that they only make up 10% of the real world population, you should also be equally outraged the average female in the game doesn't way 160lbs or that 30% of protagonists are not persons of colour, or 50% female; but you're not making those arguments because they don't serve your desires as to what you'd like to see in gaming.

[Altair_ShepardN7]

I find it hilarious how everyone is killing each other for <1 Hour of optional content. It's a freaking Free-for-All in here.

 

BSN right now...

Spoiler

  
Back on subject, I believe the 2/2/2 option is the best. Even if all romances in DA:I sucked, the model worked out pretty well and we had equality. As long as the options are good I don't see the need for complaining (but since this is BSN...).

 

I don't really have problems with gay characters as long as 1) the ship is not the SSV Gay with everyone aboard it being gay, 2) they don't act like Traynor in her introduction (which I freaking hated) and the whole "Oh hai :3, btw I'm lesbian lol" or 3) don't act too flamboyantly/fabulously, Dorian level is okay. Cortez was perfect other than awkward dialog options ("I'm eye candy, too."  ) and I would not mind several characters like him as long as it does not breaks 1).

[Br3admax]

You can add that one to the list if you want, but I felt quite comfortable with the characters and their romances their, especially as they (should have) carried on in ME3.

Miranda, we're going to bang while Tali watches.

Tali, we're going to bang, hope you don't get sick or anything. 

Jack, you're nice. Will bang you someday. 

Feed my fish.

Jacob, you could finish filing that law suit, or we could bang. 

Thane, all these conversations about death really make me think we should bang. 

Garrus, we both know this is platonic, but let's bang anyway. 

 

This coupled with ME's Love-or-Hate system really weirded me out during ME2. The only game I can think worse of is Baldur's Gate 2, considering all character content, for the most part, was locked behind romancing. DA:I is a marked improvement. So was ME3. ME3, however, is not ME2, just because they both share characters. 

 

......... I was being facetious about Cassandra. I was making a point that her attitude and appearance have nothing to do with her sexual preferences, hence why stereotypes are unfair.

I just think you guys misunderstood me and thought I was being literal. I wasn't and we are all in agreement, it seems.

Whatever, it was worded really strangely, but I appologize for the misunderstanding.