2503 réponses à ce sujet

[eyezonlyii]

That's just stupid nonsense.

 

The fundamental core of it is that masculinity is active and femininity is passive.

And so men are therefore threatened by another man's masculinity? 

Which means they are afraid that because another man is "actively" (masculinely in your phrasing) approaching them, then that means they are therefore put into the "passive" (feminine) role. So again even applying your semantics to the issue, straight men are afraid of being treated like or seen in the role that women have been  traditionally depicted in.

[bondari reloads.]

The argument that I've seen posted in various parts of the internet, is that straight men are uncomfortable with the idea of gay men because they know (think) that gay men will treat them the same way [straight men] treat women.

I hadn't thought of that at all. Is there any evidence pointing to that explanation (studies)?

[BabyPuncher]

No, not 'threatened.'

 

'Insulted' is a better term.

 

And you're mixed up, it's not masculinity at all. Men highly approve of masculine men. Highly masculine characters are very well thought of. It's feminine men that disgust them. That explanation therefore doesn't make any sense, because men aren't being 'placed' in the feminine role at all.

[eyezonlyii]

No, not 'threatened.'

 

'Insulted' is a better term.

 

And you're mixed up, it's not masculinity at all. Men highly approve of masculine men. Highly masculine characters are very well thought of. It's feminine men that disgust them. That explanation therefore doesn't make any sense, because men aren't being 'placed' in the feminine role at all.

"Insulted" because the men being flirted with feel as if the man delivering the flirts do not respect his masculinity and is thus reducing him to the feminine role. Which is upseting because it calls into question their own ideas of masculinity and identity. It's all part and parcel to the idea of being like "not a man" is lesser. I don't like throwing out -ist or -phobic words, because I think they do nothing more than shut a conversation down. That being said, question why when boys want to disbarge each other's athletic prowess they use terms ending with "like a girl". Men don't want to be seen doing anything "like a girl".

[eyezonlyii]

I hadn't thought of that at all. Is there any evidence pointing to that explanation (studies)?

Nothing concrete that I know of, just something I read on a blog post about [insert mysogonistic event here] one time. 

[BabyPuncher]

"Insulted" because the men being flirted with feel as if the man delivering the flirts do not respect his masculinity and is thus reducing him to the feminine role. Which is upseting because it calls into question their own ideas of masculinity and identity.

 

There are plenty of simple examples you can imagine imagine to prove that's not the case.

 

Men don't like being exposed to gay male sexuality in general. But between the options of a masculine gay male and a very effeminite gay male, men are far more contemptous and disgusted by the effeminite gay male. If this was really about straight men being terrified of being placed in the 'feminine' role, you would think they would show more anger towards the masculine male. But they don't.

 

Besides, men don't have any problem at all with women being direct and flirting with them. Quite the opposite, I think most men very much enjoy having women approach them.

[bondari reloads.]

Nothing concrete that I know of, just something I read on a blog post about [insert mysogonistic event here] one time.

Ha. Thank you. There should be some sources, I'll go look for it sometime.

[eyezonlyii]

There are plenty of very simple examples you can imagine imagine to prove that's clearly not the case.

 

Men don't like being exposed to gay male sexuality in general. But between the options of a masculine gay male and a very effeminite gay male, men are far more contemptous and disgusted by the effeminite gay male. If this was really about straight men being terrified of being placed in the 'feminine' role, you would think they would show more anger towards the masculine male. But they don't.

 

Besides, men don't have any problem at all with women being direct and flirting with them. Quite the opposite, I think most men very much enjoy having women approach them.

You're correct about the demonization of effeminate men (not all effeminate men are gay mind you), but the issue in my mind is more about the percieved "perversion" of the masculine with the feminine. Basically: if that man can act like that, then I could be like that too! And again, because masculinity is favored over femininity in most aspects of society (everywhere where men are supposed to be and/or are the dominant force) then there is a negative reaction to that. Here are a few examples of what I'm talking about.

 

http://dish.andrewsu...tcalling-ctd-1/

 

As for the bolded part. This is true, but the same is not true for if a man were to approach a man. That is where he gets his masculinity called into question. A woman approaching a man underscores and affirms the fact that he is desirable enough to entice a potential mate, however when that mate falls into the realm of another man, then it's an abort mission type situation.

[WildOrchid]

Oh David is at it again with his "logic".

 

 

Let me get my popcorn.

[BabyPuncher]

'Perversion' is a good way of putting it.

 

I think we're basically in agreement that femininity is off-limits to men. It's 'sacred ground,' so to speak, that men are not permitted to walk on. A woman having masculine qualities does nothing to degrade her femininity - she's still just as much and just as fully of a woman - but a man having feminine qualities absolutely degrades his masculinity.  And invites, again, contempt, disgust, anger, and so forth.

[eyezonlyii]

'Perversion' is a good way of putting it.

I think we're basically in agreement that femininity is off-limits to men. It's 'sacred ground,' so to speak, that men are not permitted to walk on. A woman having masculine qualities does nothing to degrade her femininity - she's still just as much and just as fully of a woman - but a man having feminine qualities absolutely degrades his masculinity. And invites, again, contempt, disgust, anger, and so forth.

We are only in agreement so far as that phenomena exists. I won't agree with the moral assertion you are putting forth.

[bondari reloads.]

I think we're basically in agreement that femininity is off-limits to men. It's 'sacred ground,' so to speak, that men are not permitted to walk on. A woman having masculine qualities does nothing to degrade her femininity - she's still just as much and just as fully of a woman - but a man having feminine qualities absolutely degrades his masculinity. And invites, again, contempt, disgust, anger, and so forth.

Yeah. Nobody ever used 'butch' or '******' as a derogatory term to describe women. Ever.

Edit: Love it how it promptly got censored.

[Boost32]

Oh well since we are having this discussion again, I'm going to continue with my Asari Medic, class Sentinel idea.
I was thinking about maybe she could be a mother, we never had a romance with someone who have a kid (alive), sho why not now? Her previous boundmate can have died of natural cause a time ago, so no need for Carth Sindrome.

She might have accepted to go to Andromeda to get fund for medical research to cure her daugther, who suffer from a rare disease with a very expensive treatment. Have someone done something like that?

[BabyPuncher]

Yeah. Nobody ever used 'butch' or '******' as a derogatory term to describe women. Ever.

Edit: Love it how it promptly got censored.

 

People generally don't like women who have nothing but masculine qualities.

 

But a woman can have a masculine occupation, participate in masculine activities, wear masculine clothing, speak in a masculine fashion, and she can put on a dress still retain all the allure of her femininity. Fiction is absolutely filled with such women.
 

[AlexiaRevan]

Oh well since we are having this discussion again, I'm going to continue with my Asari Medic, class Sentinel idea.
I was thinking about maybe she could be a mother, we never had a romance with someone who have a kid (alive), sho why not now? Her previous boundmate can have died of natural cause a time ago, so no need for Carth Sindrome.

She might have accepted to go to Andromeda to get fund for medical research to cure her daugther, who suffer from a rare disease with a very expensive treatment. Have someone done something like that?

Samara daughters were alive ..well sure , she end up with just one in the end . But she is still alive...

 

I don't like that kind of dramatic , but instead I would like if her daughter is alive and well and could contact her trough Holo like ash did with her sisters . 

[Boost32]

Samara daughters were alive ..well sure , she end up with just one in the end . But she is still alive...
 
I don't like that kind of dramatic , but instead I would like if her daughter is alive and well and could contact her trough Holo like ash did with her sisters .

Samara is not a real romance, so I dont count her.

And its just for add a drama in the romance, its not going to be a terminal illness like the one Thane had.

[Panda]

'Perversion' is a good way of putting it.

 

I think we're basically in agreement that femininity is off-limits to men. It's 'sacred ground,' so to speak, that men are not permitted to walk on. A woman having masculine qualities does nothing to degrade her femininity - she's still just as much and just as fully of a woman - but a man having feminine qualities absolutely degrades his masculinity.  And invites, again, contempt, disgust, anger, and so forth.

 

That sounds quite harsh for men.

[bondari reloads.]

So once you pass the magical threshold (far lower for men, apparently) you are either a f-----t or butch and thus forfeited the whole of your masculinity or femininity, respectively?

What a sad world we live in where such notions are raised (in people).

[Seraphim24]

'Perversion' is a good way of putting it.

 

I think we're basically in agreement that femininity is off-limits to men. It's 'sacred ground,' so to speak, that men are not permitted to walk on. A woman having masculine qualities does nothing to degrade her femininity - she's still just as much and just as fully of a woman - but a man having feminine qualities absolutely degrades his masculinity.  And invites, again, contempt, disgust, anger, and so forth.

 

Some women actually only want men with what you term "feminine qualities," this generalization is false and heavily on the culture and world you inhabit.

 

It's just like some men want women with "masculine qualities," and also one of the reasons masculine and feminine qualities are not useful distinctions at any rate.

[BabyPuncher]

Some women actually only want men with what you term "feminine qualities," this generalization is false and heavily on the culture and world you inhabit.

 

It's just like some men want women with "masculine qualities," and also one of the reasons masculine and feminine qualities are not very useful distinctions when they are shared.

 

First of all, I'm only concerned with Western cultures. Secondly, this is a statistical phenomanon. There are always outliars. That doesn't invalidate the clear trends.
 

[Seraphim24]

First of all, I'm only concerned with Western cultures.

 

Why?

 

 

Secondly, this is a statistical phenomanon. There are always outliars. That doesn't invalidate the clear trends.

 

So? I guess I just don't really get where you are going with your commentary....

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I was thinking about maybe she could be a mother, we never had a romance with someone who have a kid (alive), sho why not now?

Thane has a son who is alive.

[BabyPuncher]

Because this is a game developed by a western company for a western audience.

 

The purpose of my commentary is to provide reasoning behind and ultimately to justify the significant divergence between male and female sexuality. In both real life and fiction. 

[Boost32]

Thane has a son who is alive.

You are right, forgot about him.

[aCuteBrat2u]

I was happy with the Asari option for my male and female characters in all the ME's.  And really, the romance in DA:I sucked (except Cassandra).  Did they intentionally make them unattractive???