I didn't really see any meaningful difference with Morrigan really, since the dark ritual is pretty much independent of the romance.
it gets a bit more gravitas if you had romanced Morrigan
obviously this is all on top of her romance being pretty well done in the first place
They weren't so far. There was mostly still enough to explore for me to make it worth the while. But if it were up for some people the whole game would be like the Citadel DLC.
The second part shouldn't be too hard. Create things like the Batarian conflict with humanity and then, instead of letting the player explore this, make half the game about choosing your waifu.
Eh, I'm fairly indifferent to Morrigan's romance, but that's because you have to bribe and suck up to her in order to get that far.
no more than you have to for any other romance...
I wouldn't mind them being removed, but I guess technically the only reason to remove them would be to avoid angry topics about romance options on the forums. I suppose when you look at the big picture, that a dumb/small reason to remove the romances. Not all BioWare fans use these forums. In fact, I wonder if most do.
I sure as hell wouldn't have an account here if that wonderful ME3 ending didn't happen.
These types of thread subjects are just hipster-think. They see a bunch of talk about ____ and then want to show how smart they are by telling us how lame it is.
See "Make the next Mass Effect MP only" threads, etc.
Tomorrow, I'll start a thread asking BW to make the next ME game with no weapons or powers. It should be a politician simulator. "LT" and "RT" interrupts of course being Liberal or Conservative, respectively (for the American player set, anyway). 
no more than you have to for any other romance...
"Story relevance" is a red herring. What interaction beyond romance specifically, and why is it pointless? In all of these games, there's all sorts of content, some funny and some serious that may not involve the main plot directly or at all. Cutting all of it because it lacks story relevance sounds like a crappy idea to me, because is this universe supposed to give the illusion that it's alive or what? What's the point of the character's existence in the universe if anything remotely resembling a personal life isn't allowed?
Who's talking about cutting something out completely? I'm talking about not having such a strong focus on those things when there are more interesting things to explore. Yes, characters do make the universe alive, but what's the point if you can't explore this universe? In ME2 you spent about half of the game recruiting those characters or solve their personal problems. Hardly any connection to ecxiting themes of the universe or any interesting plot in most of these missions. That is pointles.
But you already said they're making too much romance content and need to hire better writers and shift focus to better plots. Which is it? Is Mass Effect a dating sim or is it an exciting sci-fi universe?
Too much romance and character content =/= dating sim.
I don't want this to veer off course too much, but Morrigan basically only approves of the cruel or jerk options. Sh** the lousy witch even disapproves if you don't sacrifice a bunch of elves for a point in constitution even if they're your kin lol.
and its the same just for other views of morality with the other squadmates
The point though is that there actually isn't that strong a focus to begin with. Lots of sessions with companions basically overlap, so that heart to heart chat with character X will still be there, only some lines will be swapped out. The same is actually true of ME2 too. While the game has a lot of content dedicated to loyalty and personal quests, that's a separate issue largely unique to that game in the series.
When a whole mission is about solving your companions father/son issues, I don't see it as a separate thing.The focus is again only on the character and the players interaction with him/her (apart from some shooting). This is not the same as having an obligatory companion for one mission because you're on his/her homeworld, when the mission is part of a more overarching plot.
edit: misread the last part of your last sentence.
Too much romance and character content =/= dating sim.
But you're the one who called it a dating sim.
You seem to have trouble understanding standard sarcasm. Let me spell it out for you then. There was definitely too much focus on character interaction for my taste and there is a point where I would decide, it's not worth playing anymore. This point has not been reached so far because there were still enough other things for me to do, but I definitely think potential has been wasted because of this strong focus on characters.
I thought we play this game because of the characters.....
I would recommend SWTOR for you if you want less character driven story and a lot of fetch quest. Even I decide to forgo on the romance part of the game.
I thought we play this game because of the characters.....
I would recommend SWTOR for you if you want less character driven story and a lot of fetch quest. Even I decide to forgo on the romance part of the game.
I play the games because of the setting and I don't like the Star Wars setting that much (almost more Fantasy than Sci Fi).
Honestly, Drew Karpyshyn did better at worldbuilding through his first two Mass Effect novels. Most of it didn't translate well through video game medium with limited first person narrative. The Old Republic wass a stand alone series and its more a sister to Mass Effect and Dragon Age Origins than the general SW game franchise. There's a lot of similarities with the planets and even the alien races because Karpyshyn wrote both of them.
I understand the sentiment about wanting to remove the romance options. I've played a lot of story-heavy RPGs with a default romance and I really detest that. But the good thing about Bioware games, romance are optional. If I felt the romance arc was unnecessary or it didn't add anything to the character's narrative or simply because its not well-written, I could choose to play without romancing anyone. Having options is way batter than having nothing at all. And it does gave you high replay value.
Once again, I'm not talking about removing something entirely. I'm talking about not having such a strong focus on those things, having a greater focus on the plot and on the universe. ME1 started with 3 romance options. ME3 ended up having about 12 I think, and between those, we had a game that was almost entirely about characters. No one can tell me that other content doesn't suffer from this and that potential elsewhere doesn't get wasted.
Once again, I'm not talking about removing something entirely. I'm talking about not having such a strong focus on those things, having a greater focus on the plot and on the universe. ME1 started with 3 romance options. ME3 ended up having about 12 I think, and between those, we had a game that was almost entirely about characters. No one can tell me that other content doesn't suffer from this and that potential elsewhere doesn't get wasted.
Think again. Aside from Liara, Ashley, Kaiden, Garrus and Tali none of the previous games' romances have more than a few lines of dialogue and/or a brief kiss scene to acknowledge they ever happened. Mass Effect 3 has 7 romances and none of them have much content. You're greatly exaggerating once again("it's a dating sim, hurr hurr"). The romances are a minor portion of the game and are optional content. The entire point of BioWare games is optional content. Getting to know the characters is optional. Recruiting many of them is optional. Doing quests with them is optional. In-depth dialogue exchanges are optional. Preparing for the final showdown is optional. Gathering resources is optional. Etc. Why single out romances? Why not take out ALL of that optional content and make Mass Effect an entirely linear, on-rails TPS?
Think again. Aside from Liara, Ashley, Kaiden, Garrus and Tali none of the previous games' romances have more than a few lines of dialogue and/or a brief kiss scene to acknowledge they ever happened. Mass Effect 3 has 7 romances and none of them have much content. You're greatly exaggerating once again("it's a dating sim, hurr hurr"). The romances are a minor portion of the game and are optional content. The entire point of BioWare games is optional content. Getting to know the characters is optional. Recruiting many of them is optional. Doing quests with them is optional. In-depth dialogue exchanges are optional. Preparing for the final showdown is optional. Gathering resources is optional. Etc. Why single out romances? Why not take out ALL of that optional content and make Mass Effect an entirely linear, on-rails TPS?
I think I've already stated that I am talking about the focus on character in general. Romances are just one part of that. And the character stuff got a whole DLC (Citadel) and almost a whole game (ME2), you call that not much content? Exagerrating? Your interpretation. Let's say I play the second game without recruiting many companions and most importantly without solving their personal problems. How many missions are left then? I can beat this game in half a day then. Oh and my Shepard most likely dies and I can't import, great.
As for ME3, from the wikia. For male Shepard: Miranda Tali Jack Ashley Steve (5). For female Shepard: Samantha Garrus Thane (3). For both Shepards: Kaidan, Liara, Kelly, Allers (4). That makes 12 (even without Citadel DLC romances), and content for them all combined is not that little. ME3 of course added more of everything (except exploration) and because of that is a better game than ME2. But guess what, a lot of people would rather have ME2 2.0.
I think I've already stated that I am talking about the focus on character in general. Romances are just one part of that. And the character stuff got a whole DLC (Citadel) and almost a whole game (ME2), you call that not much content? Exagerrating? Your interpretation. Let's say I play the second game without recruiting many companions and most importantly without solving their personal problems. How many missions are left then? I can beat this game in half a day then. Oh and my Shepard most likely dies and I can't import, great.
As for ME3, from the wikia. For male Shepard: Miranda Tali Jack Ashley Steve (5). For female Shepard: Samantha Garrus Thane (3). For both Shepards: Kaidan, Liara, Kelly, Allers (4). That makes 12 (even without Citadel DLC romances), and content for them all combined is not that little. ME3 of course added more of everything (except exploration) and because of that is a better game than ME2. But guess what, a lot of people would rather have ME2 2.0.
We're talking about romances in the games and the resources that go into developing them. Stop trying to move the goalpost.
Err, nope. This is what you wrote.
Romances let BioWare put more focus on characters and character development, which is their strong suit. Plots are not their strong suit. Having to rely more heavily on the plot for success would just make their lackluster plots more glaringly problematic.
This is how I responded.
Then they should work on that and hire writer who can write a plot instead of just writing a soap opera. Mass Effect is still supposed to be a Sci Fi Adventure and character development, as good as it may be, is not enough for that. They already put far too much focus on characters and romances.
If you're not interested in this debate, you shouldn't have answered in the first place.
You think the story would have somehow become awesome if they reduced the number and quality of the companions?
If they would have written missions for the story and not for the companion, then yes I think the story would have been better.
I already debunked this. Miranda, Jack, Thane, Kelly and Allers are not romances in ME3, let alone resource-hogs.
You've debunked **** pal. Of course they are romances. Do you think that just because you don't get some achievement for that, those scenes with them don't have to be written and developed anymore?
Err, nope. This is what you wrote.
If you're not interested in this debate, you shouldn't have answered in the first place.
If they would have written missions for the story and not for the companion, then yes I think the story would have been better.
You've debunked **** pal. Of course they are romances. Do you think that just because you don't get some achievement for that, those scenes with them don't have to be written and developed anymore?
What was the first word in my quote there?
Oh, now you're telling you didn't mention characters at all? And here I thought you were making a point about focussing more on character development and not on the plot. No wait, you actually did that dude.
There is no debate. All you have is absurd hyperbole and a lack of understanding of how games are developed.
"a debate: a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints" As long as you keep answering and opposing my viewpoint, we have a debate, deal wit it pal.
Stories are plotted before missions are written. They told the story they wanted to tell. I'm sorry that you have no understanding of this basic fact, but that is the reality of the situation.
They could have easily decided to plot a different story.
A few lines of dialogue and a recycled animation or two are not resource drains. Removing that content would have added up to nothing but less content.
It's the quantity of scenes like those, that drains resources.
You lost this argument. Move on.
Declaring yourself the winner, does that boost your ego? 
While I agree with the broader point I'm not sure I agree with the example. I found ME2 to be too unfocused, and far, far too dependent on using a "romance" plot to offer character plots. Absent the romance plot, you're totally shut out. Jack is the premier example.
Really? I didn't think so at all. I thought Jack, Zaeed, Miranda, Tali, Garrus, Mordin, and even lame Jacob all had excellent personal quests. I didn't care for Thane, but the mission at least got you into his head.
I loved Jack's mission because you get behind her badass front a bit. My favorite part is that she will initially want to do the opposite of whatever you tell her to do with the guy at the end. Killing finally becomes a choice, not something she simply must do to survive. My problem with these missions is that they are more about getting rid of distractions. The only ones I found to have anything to do with Loyalty are Tali and Zaeed (if you save the workers and do the paragon option.) You might throw in Grunt since he calls Shepard his Battlemaster.
Who's talking about cutting something out completely? I'm talking about not having such a strong focus on those things when there are more interesting things to explore. Yes, characters do make the universe alive, but what's the point if you can't explore this universe? In ME2 you spent about half of the game recruiting those characters or solve their personal problems. Hardly any connection to ecxiting themes of the universe or any interesting plot in most of these missions. That is pointles.
Too much romance and character content =/= dating sim.
What made the universe so interesting other than the races and characters?
I play the games because of the setting and I don't like the Star Wars setting that much (almost more Fantasy than Sci Fi).
Star Wars is fantasy in space.
We're talking about romances in the games and the resources that go into developing them. Stop trying to move the goalpost. ME2 is a Dirty Dozen story with very little actual story. You think the story would have somehow become awesome if they reduced the number and quality of the companions?
It depends on what you mean. Would removing companions make the existing plot better? No, not at all. Would more development time have helped? Possibly if it meant somebody realizing "Hey, guys? This plot really sucks"? Maybe.
They could have easily decided to plot a different story.
But unfortunately they didn't and the plot was probably decided before the character stories were done.
Really? I didn't think so at all. I thought Jack, Zaeed, Miranda, Tali, Garrus, Mordin, and even lame Jacob all had excellent personal quests. I didn't care for Thane, but the mission at least got you into his head.
I loved Jack's mission because you get behind her badass front a bit. My favorite part is that she will initially want to do the opposite of whatever you tell her to do with the guy at the end. Killing finally becomes a choice, not something she simply must do to survive. My problem with these missions is that they are more about getting rid of distractions. The only ones I found to have anything to do with Loyalty are Tali and Zaeed (if you save the workers and do the paragon option.) You might throw in Grunt since he calls Shepard his Battlemaster.
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