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Don't Do Romances


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#726
Angry_Elcor

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come on guys, we were on a nice stretch recently. no bs threads in general discussion. now we have this.

 

Gee, I was on such a nice stretch without anyone throwing petty insults at me because they disagreed with me.

 

you people clamour for Bioware to be more accommodating of what fans need/want yet here you are deliberately saying to remove a choice from the game that accommodates a large fraction of fans.

 

Are you aware that the people you are referring to are not a hive mind, but rather individuals with their own opinions?

 

are we going back to the stone age? are we now regressing?

 

Wow, that's quite a lofty pedestal that you've put romances on. All those poor developers who had no idea that by not including player romances in their games they were destroying progress and taking us back to the stone age.

 

we've made many strides for equality in the game which is why i find this thread, absolutely absurd.

 

Louis-C.K.-WTF-Expression-During-a-Stand

 

I find it kind of absurd to bring equality into this, since it has nothing to do with the discussion (kind of seems like a pointless straw man to me.)


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#727
Angry_Elcor

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To OP, don't like them, dont play them. No one is forcing you to do romance. 

 

Just like no one is forcing you to read anything that I actually wrote.



#728
katamuro

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Just like no one is forcing you to read anything that I actually wrote.

 

Sure, but it seems that opposing something you dont like and can easily avoid is a bit pointless. 



#729
Fishy

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Escapist article about BioWare romances

 

That article is pretty well-written, and I think it does a good job of summing up the problems.

 

 

I bet the moron who wrote that article has never put 50 millions of his own money into the budget of a game. Mass effect is not an indie book. So what if they create companion based of what their targeted demographic want. Stupid article. I have a revelation for you.. They alllll dooooo this. uhuh. sight.



#730
Killdren88

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I find it kind of absurd to bring equality into this, since it has nothing to do with the discussion (kind of seems like a pointless straw man to me.)


By their logic by hating romance we must hate peoples of different sexual orientations.

#731
Angry_Elcor

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Sure, but it seems that opposing something you dont like and can easily avoid is a bit pointless. 

 

The subtext that you missed was that I was pointing out how obvious it was that you haven't actually read my posts in this thread. I'm guessing that you probably didn't even read past the three words in the title, but it doesn't make much difference. As I said previously, no one is required to read anything that I wrote (but it would help them avoid being the 25th person to incorrectly claim to know motivations that I've openly and repeatedly explained.)

 

I bet the moron who wrote that article has never put 50 millions of his own money into the budget of a game. Mass effect is not an indie book. So what if they create companion based of what their targeted demographic want. Stupid article. I have a revelation for you.. They alllll dooooo this. uhuh. sight.

 

I can't imagine anyone who could read that article and come away being angry at the author. If what the person who wrote that article said made you that upset, you either misunderstood it completely, or you are likely offended by your own shadow's unwillingness to be exactly what you want it to be.

 

By their logic by hating romance we must hate peoples of different sexual orientations.

 

I have no idea what they meant, but I know that logic had nothing to do with it. Edit: But there shouldn't be a "we" in that sentence. I've mentioned many times that I don't hate the romances.



#732
katamuro

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Well yeah I am not going to read 30 pages of posts. But I did read your orignal post and my point still stands. They are not going to get rid of it, it adds to the replay value for a lot of gamers and considering they are one of the rare developers who actually do romance then they are not going to get rid of their "shtick" just to free up some resources.

 

Romance is important to bioware and for the various writers of the characters in the games. They are not going to get rid of one of the factors that contribute to the success of their games. 


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#733
Angry_Elcor

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Well yeah I am not going to read 30 pages of posts.

 

Or even just the first few, which as I said, was already obvious.

 

But I did read your orignal post and my point still stands.

 

You did, did you? It stands, does it? Okay then, if you insist...

 

To OP, don't like them, dont play them. No one is forcing you to do romance. 

 

Feel free to quote me any part of the OP in which I express that I dislike romances, or that I am complaining about being forced to do them.

 

Sure, but it seems that opposing something you dont like and can easily avoid is a bit pointless. 

 

Feel free to quote me the part of the OP where I say that I oppose romance (whether in general or in principle) or that I complain about not being able to avoid romances.

 

Would you like me to help you out a bit?

 

Set yourself free, developers.

 

 

Give in to the temptation, and let go. See what happens. Let the world see that BioWare can make a romance-free game without it having any significant impact on its success.

 

Free yourself from the resources needed to do all the extra voicover and writing.

 

Free yourself from the inescapable rage backlash over every romance detail.

 

Developers, set yourselves free.

 

 

There you go, I even removed the Simpsons "relieved" image and Independence Day gifs so that you can find the quotes that you're looking for more easily.



#734
katamuro

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Ok look, angry elcor, I took your post of setting yourself free as a dislike, because you seem to see the romances as unnecessary to the story, not adding anything or enhancing it in any way which is why I connected the dots and thought that you disliked the romances presented to you. And frankly you are not the first posting this so yeah I thought you are another person sore about it because he/she thought it was not done properly or something like that. I made an assumption just like every single person does every day of their lives, so sue me. 

 

So if you didn't dislike them why do you want them to be cut? I along with quite a few people think that they give our characters more depth. Gives us more material to roleplay with after all it is an rpg. 

 

And when I was talking about my point I was referring to the fact that they are not going to cut something that has been almost their hallmark for many many years, everyone knows, even the people who haven't played mass effect or dragon age that in those games you get to romance characters. especially examples of same sex romances and inter-species romances are brought up. So why would they cut out the part of the game that gives them free publicity and get people to play the games not because they thought action was awesome but because a gay person can actually play a gay person with a romance option in the game. I have seen posts like that on bsn by gamers saying that they got interested because there was such an option.

 

Hence romance in bioware games=more games sold, more people liking their games, more profit. 

 

WHERE is the LOGIC in cutting out those bits? 


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#735
KaiserShep

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I think they're too much fun to get rid of. Plus, it's usually like the only pleasant thing the characters have to look forward to lol.
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#736
Lady Artifice

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I think they're too much fun to get rid of. Plus, it's usually like the only pleasant thing the characters have to look forward to lol.

 

Seriously. Sometimes even the friendship arcs seem like more of a burden than an actual relationship between the characters. Of course, that could be corrected by just making giving the friendships a little more depth.

 

And I already think Bioware is moving that direction. 



#737
SlottsMachine

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Particularly when the exclusion of said feature would likely result in the same amount of romance speculation/discussion threads in addition to a whole new slew of threads complaining about/praising the exclusion of said feature.

 

I don't know, I don't mind the romances but I think I would enjoy the tears.


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#738
Angry_Elcor

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Ok look, angry elcor, I took your post of setting yourself free as a dislike, because you seem to see the romances as unnecessary to the story, not adding anything or enhancing it in any way which is why I connected the dots and thought that you disliked the romances presented to you.

 

So you assumed a whole bunch of things that I didn't say, and for some reason you see this as "connecting the dots?" You always had the option of reading and responding to the substance of what I actually said. For obvious reasons, I don't buy into the "No one would dare say anything but romances are awesome 100% of the time unless they hated them" argument.

 

And frankly you are not the first posting this so yeah I thought you are another person sore about it because he/she thought it was not done properly or something like that.

 

Sure. Someone else once posted something about romances so everything I post should be interpreted to mean the same thing they posted. Okay.

 

I made an assumption just like every single person does every day of their lives, so sue me. 

 

Most people seem to manage to discuss the issue without telling me what I'm saying or what my motivations are, so I don't think that really applies to every single person.

 

So if you didn't dislike them why do you want them to be cut?

 

If you're going to respond to the substance of the original post, the question would be, "Why do you think removing them would set the developers free?" Again, you are telling me that I want romances to be cut despite the fact that I have never said that I want the romances to be cut (re-read the OP again if you don't believe me.)

 

I'm suggesting the developers free themselves from the stress of defending every romance-related decision they make when writing the game and, amazingly, most people correctly interpreted it as a satirical post making a broader point about not focusing too much energy on something that doesn't merit that much energy.

 

You're free to disagree with the premise, but the fact that every time you post you attribute to me opinions, statements and motivations that I haven't expressed is a little ridiculous. It's not like the OP was all that long or complicated. It wasn't a giant rant. It was short, and easy enough to understand that most people got what I was saying. And, of course, you always had the option of actually reading my posts. You didn't have to, but you're going to tell me what my opinion is while refusing to actually read my own words explaining it? 

 

So why would they cut out the part of the game that gives them free publicity

 

It doesn't give them free publicity, any more than the fact that the latest Call of Duty has multiplayer maps gives that game free publicity. Everything has a cost, even if it isn't obvious.

 

and get people to play the games not because they thought action was awesome but because a gay person can actually play a gay person with a romance option in the game. I have seen posts like that on bsn by gamers saying that they got interested because there was such an option.

 

Hence romance in bioware games=more games sold, more people liking their games, more profit. 

 

WHERE is the LOGIC in cutting out those bits? 

 

Okay, you really shouldn't have used the word logic there. First of all, romance story-lines do not determine whether someone can or cannot play a gay character. There is no direct connection between the two. Whether or not a character is gay should theoretically have little story impact under most circumstances. If the fact that the character is gay is only relevant to your argument in a romance situation, then the argument is a circular one, not a logical one.

 

Romance in Bioware games equaling more games sold is not a logical argument. You haven't established that is the case by citing anecdotal evidence from an online forum. That's not how logic works.

 

It is possible that the inclusion of romances impacts the total sales, but there is hardly any evidence that the impact is large enough to be relevant to a budget decision. There is also no evidence that removing them would significantly add to the available resources for making the game.

 

The point I made was that removing them wouldn't inherently harm the game any more than keeping them would. Their value is in the quality of how they are written and implemented. The idea that they are always awesome so they should just cram as many of them in as possible, quality control be damned, is certainly something a lot of people believe, but even those of us who appreciate the romance stories when they're done well are perfectly capable of saying "Woagh there, BioWare, you should reign it in a little because your quality control is suffering in the writing of your romances."

 

People who like the romances can have an opinion that falls short of "They are always a good idea, no exceptions."



#739
katamuro

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Just as you say that I disregard what you say, you also ignore the bits of what I say to just use my words to fit your narrative the best. You completely ignored when I said that gay people can play gay characters WITH a gay love interest and not just a gay character.

 

Also there is not accurate way of measuring what features of the game brought in how many people and how that translated into sales, at least not without some major statistics work done. But it has been stated on here and other forums that the availability of the romance options is one factor of why some people started playing the game. 

 

And it seems you are trying to argue something with me that is purely in your mind, I have never stated to put as many romances as they can quality control be damned. I said that it is completely lacking in logic to cut out the bit of the game that brings them free PR, good and bad, all of which raises the awareness of their product in people's minds. How many teenagers had no idea about the game before some of the tv channels started going on about how immoral the game was about portraying a sex scene between a woman and alien or man and alien. How many people looked into the game based on that? Impossible to say but I bet the figure was not 0.

 

Also you accuse me of not producing any evidence but you yourself state things without any kind of evidence at all, even "anecdotal" as you have said. And I didn't use it as evidence I used it as something I have heard people say. 

 

So since you seem to be doing exactly the same things you accuse me of doing doesn't that strike you as bit hypocritical? And since I have no wish to prolong this rather pointless argument I am signing off from this thread. 


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#740
Natureguy85

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To OP, don't like them, dont play them. No one is forcing you to do romance.

 

 


but i can humor some people a little. its funny so many people here are "claiming" that they would like a romance-free game but there was nothing in any of the previous mass effect games that compelled you to enter in a relationship with a person, which is an excellent move from bioware. so you can choose to romance no one. no one is forcing you to romance someone; if you dont want to do it, then dont do it.

 

you people clamour for Bioware to be more accommodating of what fans need/want yet here you are deliberately saying to remove a choice from the game that accommodates a large fraction of fans. remove romances on the whole? are we going back to the stone age? are we now regressing? we've made many strides for equality in the game which is why i find this thread, absolutely absurd.

 

come on guys, we were on a nice stretch recently. no bs threads in general discussion. now we have this.

 

And the list of people who didn't read or at least didn't comprehend the OP grows ever longer.


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#741
Natureguy85

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I bet the moron who wrote that article has never put 50 millions of his own money into the budget of a game. Mass effect is not an indie book. So what if they create companion based of what their targeted demographic want. Stupid article. I have a revelation for you.. They alllll dooooo this. uhuh. sight.

 

Did you miss the part where he held up a different game as the better way to do it?



#742
KainD

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Let the world see that BioWare can make a romance-free game without it having any significant impact on its success.

 

 

They can't do that because it WILL have a significant impact on success. 


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#743
BloodyTalon

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Hopefullpy they get more complex with them this time also, want to romance a hive mind!



#744
Steelcan

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They can't do that because it WILL have a significant impact on success. 

unlikely, maybe the romance die hards might get upset, but I doubt they'd cause to to flop if it otherwise wouldn't have



#745
Reezus Christ

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They can't do that because it WILL have a significant impact on success. 

You sure? What evidence do you have to support this?


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#746
KaiserShep

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They can't do that because it WILL have a significant impact on success. 

Any meaningful change would have some kind of impact, but in terms of the game's commercial success, I doubt very much that this would be significant. Even people who really dig romances a great deal might still just buy the game anyway. The biggest change I see happening is that we'd just see a lot of "Why isn't so-and-so able to be romanced?" threads. 


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#747
KainD

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unlikely, maybe the romance die hards might get upset, but I doubt they'd cause to to flop if it otherwise wouldn't have

 

I'm not saying the game will flop, just that romance is a significant part for many people. 

 

You sure? What evidence do you have to support this?

 

In my experience on BSN people tend to talk about romances really often, characters that are romanceable are always more popular + heard many times how romances got someone into the game in the first place, even thought they don't tend to play such games. 

 

Then again it might just be BSN. 



#748
CrimsonN7

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Don't do kids then. Please.

 

Erm what? Probably the strangest post I've seen all month and by BSN standards that's impressive.

 

As for OP your ideas are interesting to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.


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#749
WinterRaven

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I tend to enjoy the romances. I think they are a neat little side aspect. People tend to get too wrapped up in them though. I guess I just don't get why people care so much if they are in or not. It's not wasting resources. A romance subplot has about as much cut scene and voice acting work as a companions individual quest chain, maybe slightly more. But it is not a massive drain on resources. As for that article above. To continue with the companion mission logic. They shouldn't have any companion missions. I, for one, never really liked Blackwall, I have never ever played his sub mission. Thus Bioware is wasting time and resources on the Blackwall subplot because a section of gamers (people that don't like Blackwall) didn't part take and they would have been better served adding in two more hour of generic questing and scout harding "greetins' quizzy"  content and clips? Or they should have just avoided the whole "drama" but not doing a Blackwall subplot? No. 

 

I think they are a nice sub piece that break up the flow of the game a little; like getting mounts, collecting lore, decorating skyhold, or spending hours collecting the resources to give yourself that extra perfect ultimate gear even though your armor from 10 builds ago was good enough to beat everything. if you don't like it, don't engage it. Its that simple. I will change my mind when Bioware comes out and says they had to cut integral content (not just decided between romances and something you would have liked better but equally extra) in order to include it. 

 

 

Do romance. 


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#750
Amirit

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Romance in Bioware games equaling more games sold is not a logical argument. You haven't established that is the case by citing anecdotal evidence from an online forum. That's not how logic works.

 

It is possible that the inclusion of romances impacts the total sales, but there is hardly any evidence that the impact is large enough to be relevant to a budget decision. There is also no evidence that removing them would significantly add to the available resources for making the game.

 

The point I made was that removing them wouldn't inherently harm the game any more than keeping them would. Their value is in the quality of how they are written and implemented. The idea that they are always awesome so they should just cram as many of them in as possible, quality control be damned, is certainly something a lot of people believe, but even those of us who appreciate the romance stories when they're done well are perfectly capable of saying "Woagh there, BioWare, you should reign it in a little because your quality control is suffering in the writing of your romances."

 

People who like the romances can have an opinion that falls short of "They are always a good idea, no exceptions."

Can I play too? Please?!

 

How about the following logical conclusion: BW is famous (compare to other story-telling RPG making companies) for inclusion of romances. It provokes many questions during pre- and post-release interviews, pre-production hip and so on, keeping public interest to the the game, keeping the name of the game titles floating in top of forums discussions. There are many companies producing RPG, but BW is already for many years are known for having romances in the games.

Now, you remove a feature that everyone is used to and expect to have in a BW game. I repeat - an established feature, sort of a trademark. I say, the game will be bushed and smashed in every media for not delivering an expected thing, and bad mouthing will harm game and company reputation. Critics will mention it as a separate negative note, gamers will be furious - both those who love romances and those indifferent (because a feature was taken from them). So, general score of the game will be lower then it could be if they did not cut romances off.

 

You are telling it's impossible to predict - wrong! We have a perfect example - DA2 and DAI. One of the negative point DA2 got from everyone was the lack of different playable races - a feature expected from fantasy games from BW. You know how it ended up - they were added to DAI. And this is while any study proves the majority of gamers play humans anyway. Guess, BW or EA counted that "few" race-lovers and found the number big enough to bring race choice back to the game. Or they did not want negative publicity anymore. Or they wanted to stand out in one more area in the RPG crowd. Either way it proves that developers realized cutting off an expected feature is not a good idea.

 

So, I would say removing romances WILL hurt BW reputation and hard.


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