1315 réponses à ce sujet

[FKA_Servo]

She does? Can't remember that ever happening for me. I picked the wrong options for that most likely then.

 

It's all in the delivery. If Mass Effect characters actually emoted, she would have looked downright lascivious.

[Master Warder Z_]

Why the hostility?

 

Not hostile just tired of having people wanting to play out their fantasies in scenarios never designed for them.

 

Then blaming said creators of scenarios for that, and then labeling them as 'politically incorrect' to use a polite labeling. 

 

Honestly even if that were the case, I say its their damn product, they can market it to be what they want. Don't like it? Don't buy it or do buy it and don't be as picky or easily offended.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Not hostile just tired of having people wanting to play out their fantasies in scenarios never designed for them.

 

Then blaming said creators of scenarios for that, and then labeling them as 'politically incorrect' to use a polite labeling. 

 

Honestly even if that were the case, I say its their damn product, they can market it to be what they want. Don't like it? Don't buy it or do buy it don't be as picky or easily offended.

There was no blame or any negative feelings directed towards the writers involved in my posts. I was just having a civil discussion about the subject. 

[Lady Artifice]

Not hostile just tired of having people wanting to play out their fantasies in scenarios never designed for them.

 

Then blaming said creators of scenarios for that, and then labeling them as 'politically incorrect' to use a polite labeling. 

 

Honestly even if that were the case, I say its their damn product, they can market it to be what they want. Don't like it? Don't buy it or do buy it and don't be as picky or easily offended.

 

For sure, but since that product happens to be an rpg, is it so entirely unreasonable to at least consider the degree to which the player is allowed to decide who the protagonist feels attraction to? 

[Master Warder Z_]

There was no blame involved in my posts. I was just having a civil discussion about the subject. 

 

*snorts*

 

Sure, lets go with that.

 

It just reminded me of the whole PC, SJW,Tumblrina bullshit that I sort of despise for attempting to latch into things for the sake of imposed equality, which in most cases isn't even that. Its usually 'legitimize my fanfiction or I'll call you names on a blog'.

 

.-.

 

Which I think shouldn't happen, it weakens a product, dilutes it. 

[Valdez_ua]

Why?

Because every LI character's history and personality is written with an eye for potential romance. So a lot of things has to be added or deleted because of this. And when it is done to almost every squad mate it creates a certain vibe that all of this is pretty artificial and put in this game because of endless whining on the forums and not because writers wanted to do so. So it basically ruins integrity of the story and characters, leaving writers with less freedom.

[FKA_Servo]

Not hostile just tired of having people wanting to play out their fantasies in scenarios never designed for them.

 

Then blaming said creators of scenarios for that, and then labeling them as 'politically incorrect' to use a polite labeling. 

 

Honestly even if that were the case, I say its their damn product, they can market it to be what they want. Don't like it? Don't buy it or do buy it and don't be as picky or easily offended.

 

 

Kind of like those who accuse the creators of "pandering" (to use a polite term) when they make the game they apparently want to make, with the characters they want to write.

 

The last part does seem like good advice, though. Applicable to the the people who complain about the mere inclusion of romance subplots especially.

[elinema]

i like to imagine i personally had a romance with cremisius in dai. does my inquisitor need to be involved? no, not necessarily, the romance in my head is pretty good without her, and it is by far the best romance i've experienced in dragon age. quite wonderful in fact. did it happen on screen? didn't have to. 

 

i just played through witcher iii and the romance options were absolutely not to my liking (fight me! i hated the otaku yes-master redhead and the psycho toxic ex girlfriend! i dare you to fight me on it! i've seen enough hater threads about it on the internet, i know you can tell me i'm wrong!). so i romanced no one. did it make the game worse? no, the only thing imo that made the game worse, was how women were represented in it. so if there was to be less romances for great character-writing and a story that is mind-blowing, certainly, i would endorse this. am i against cute scenes that make me feel warm and fuzzy inside? nah, not really. 

[FKA_Servo]

Because every LI character's history and personality is written with an eye for potential romance. So a lot of things has to be added or deleted because of this. And when it is done to almost every squad mate it creates a certain vibe that all of this is pretty artificial and put in this game because of endless whining on the forums and not because writers wanted to do so. So it basically ruins integrity of the story and characters, leaving writers with less freedom.

 

Can you cite a specific example to illustrate what you mean?

[Master Warder Z_]

For sure, but since that product happens to be an rpg, is it so entirely unreasonable to at least consider the degree to which the player is allowed to decide who the protagonist feels attraction to? 

 

*snorts* For labels that didn't even exist when I was in primary school?

 

Lets say you do that, when it does it end? Answer me that, how many lines of dialogue and code would it warrant to satisfy 'everyone'? Would the game even have the budget for a plot, or gameplay then? Because as you said, to a degree, what is this 'degree'? What 'freedom' is warranted and how much would it cost to actually achieve it and still leave a product cost effective and marketable?

 

These people still have to sell this thing to make their money back and to achieve profit, and this is just a single component of a overall game, how much resources should be devoted to it? Because lets say you just do asexual, heterosexual, transsexual, homosexual, demisexual, pansexual and bisexual, just what with those you have to write in and pay for dialogue from the VA's to do four more dialogue options, outcomes, etc for the romance then you would before, apply that to all romances, and or genders in a game and it becomes a nightmare to pay for, to implement and to actually achieve.

 

All for a product where again, this is a secondary feature.

[Master Warder Z_]

Kind of like those who accuse the creators of "pandering" (to use a polite term) when they make the game they apparently want to make, with the characters they want to write.

 

Sure if you want, I'll admit I'd be one of those who leveled that Bioware's feet considering the pandering in question, broke game lore and no fucks were given, it was a half ass pull job to basically implement.

 

.-.

 

That said the creators can defend and enjoy the character all they like, I didn't care for how they were done, didn't mind the other person of the same persuasion came into play, said literally nothing negative about that instance, but again that one actually fit in with context.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Because every LI character's history and personality is written with an eye for potential romance. So a lot of things has to be added or deleted because of this. And when it is done to almost every squad mate it creates a certain vibe that all of this is pretty artificial and put in this game because of endless whining on the forums and not because writers wanted to do so. So it basically ruins integrity of the story and characters, leaving writers with less freedom.

Not true. Bioware has repeatedly stated that the LIs aren't determined until after the characters and their story arcs are determined. When that's done, they look them over and see which ones could have a romance arc fit the character. 

[FKA_Servo]

Lets say you do that, when it does it end? Answer me that, how many lines of dialogue and code would it warrant to satisfy 'everyone'? Would the game even have the budget for a plot, or gameplay then? Because as you said, to a degree, what is this 'degree'? What 'freedom' is warranted and how much would it cost to actually achieve it and still leave a product cost effective and marketable?

 

Much less than you'd think. I get the impression that you're probably massively overestimating how much of a resource investment the inclusion is in the first place compared with the rest of the game.

 

Hanako's specific example that you're all up in arms about was just a disastrous artistic choice in general. She's not the first person here to point out how inappropriate and out of place it was. I promise you, others have done so with no particular "agenda" in mind.

[Master Warder Z_]

Much less than you'd think.

 

Eh...

 

I am uncertain on that, given how much Hale made for Kotor but let's put that aside.

 

 

 I get the impression that you're probably massively overestimating how much of a resource investment the inclusion is in the first place compared with the rest of the game.

 

Unless if its actually put in at base, its additional work to code and test, that's just basic game making, unless if its literally there when you are throwing the entire thing up, its something you have to go back in and add, additional hours, additional people to pay. That's all content, period. Everything that isn't there when you basically get the base game up and running, and I'd assume just from a programming perspective you'd do secondary content like romances period, after actually getting the base game world set up and workable.

 

 

Much less than you'd think. I get the impression that you're probably massively overestimating how much of a resource investment the inclusion is in the first place compared with the rest of the game.

 

Hanako's specific example that you're all up in arms about 

 

Recall stating I was indifferent on the matter.

[FKA_Servo]

Unless if its actually put in at base, its additional work to code and test, that's just basic game making, unless if its literally there when you are throwing the entire thing up, its something you have to go back in and add, additional hours, additional people to pay. That's all content, period. Everything that isn't there when you basically get the base game up and running, and I'd assume just from a programming perspective you'd do secondary content like romances period, after actually getting the base game world set up and workable.

 

It's an extra dozen lines or so added to the word budget and recorded by actors who are already there recording the rest of their performance. Until recently it was a negligible amount of new cinematic work. That's gotten more in-depth, especially in DAI, but it's still hardly anything compared with the rest of the narrative and companion content that I assume you have no issues with.

 

I can't source this, unfortunately, but I do recall hearing at some point that the ROI on romance content versus the actual expense in implementing it is staggering. That's not difficult for me to believe either way - and much of that is thanks to the "whimsical headcanons" you think so highly of.

[Master Warder Z_]

I can't source this, unfortunately, but I do recall hearing at some point that the ROI on romance content versus the actual expense in implementing it is staggering. 

 

I wish you could, I'd love to see the stats behind that claim

[FKA_Servo]

I wish you could, I'd love to see the stats behind that claim

 

Be assured that I will attempt to find it. In the meantime though, applying an ounce of critical thought to the notion should lead you to the same conclusion. Scripting and recording an extra 5 minutes of dialogue isn't going to meaningfully impact the overall content, and its exclusion isn't going to result in new guns, missions, or alternate story content. Sadly, the thing that will likely have the most impact on those sorts of additions is the profitability of the applicable microtransaction scheme.

[Ariella]

It's an extra dozen lines or so added to the word budget and recorded by actors who are already there recording the rest of their performance. Until recently it was a negligible amount of new cinematic work. That's gotten more in-depth, especially in DAI, but it's still hardly anything compared with the rest of the narrative and companion content that I assume you have no issues with.
 
I can't source this, unfortunately, but I do recall hearing at some point that the ROI on romance content versus the actual expense in implementing it is staggering. That's not difficult for me to believe either way - and much of that is thanks to the "whimsical headcanons" you think so highly of.

I wouldn't be surprised. Look at some of the character threads, Solas especially, in DAI. I mean I've seen people passionate about characters, but damn. It's nice not to be so alone in the room.

And if we're talking ROI in just fan investment, take a look at tumblr for Cullen, Solas, Cass. The art alone is a staggering investment of time, which means the players are invested in the game. Then there's fan fiction, and other fan creations, it's insane, but it means people have put time into the game to do this, which is a win.

[Seboist]

Not hostile just tired of having people wanting to play out their fantasies in scenarios never designed for them.

 

Then blaming said creators of scenarios for that, and then labeling them as 'politically incorrect' to use a polite labeling. 

 

Honestly even if that were the case, I say its their damn product, they can market it to be what they want. Don't like it? Don't buy it or do buy it and don't be as picky or easily offended.

 

Remember, this is the BSN, where having a juvenile sexual/power wish fulfillment fantasy is more important than gameplay mechanics or having a coherent and consistent story.

 

This is the same fanbase that during the ME2 days was more concerned about not having their yuri/yaoi fetishes catered to, than that game having a laughable import system and lacking basic TPS mechanics like roll and cover to cover or it being a sequel(in name only) that threw the overarching story's out the window.

 

If one didn't know any better, by coming on this forum, they'd think ME(and DA) were AAA date sims with a combat minigame.

[FKA_Servo]

I wouldn't be surprised. Look at some of the character threads, Solas especially, in DAI. I mean I've seen people passionate about characters, but damn. It's nice not to be so alone in the room.

And if we're talking ROI in just fan investment, take a look at tumblr for Cullen, Solas, Cass. The art alone is a staggering investment of time, which means the players are invested in the game. Then there's fan fiction, and other fan creations, it's insane, but it means people have put time into the game to do this, which is a win.

 

This is a really good point, and states more eloquently what I was trying to convey.

 

The romance content isn't free, but the cost is negligible - a drop in the bucket of the overall budget. The investment it garners among the fanbase is huge. The publicity it garners (Bioware has been a vanguard for inclusive romantic content) is huge. The longevity it confers to the games themselves is huge.

 

Although, I'd actually like to clarify this...

 

Eh...

 

I am uncertain on that, given how much Hale made for Kotor but let's put that aside.

 

What are you referring to, exactly? The amount of romance dialogue Hale recorded, or her paycheck against the overall budget for the game? Because again, that romance dialogue didn't cost any extra on top of her initial participation as Bastila. This sounds like a completely different argument.

[Ariella]

This is a really good point, and states more eloquently what I was trying to convey.
 
The romance content isn't free, but the cost is negligible - a drop in the bucket of the overall budget. The investment it garners among the fanbase is huge. The publicity it garners (Bioware has been a vanguard for inclusive romantic content) is huge. The longevity it confers to the games themselves is huge.

Another way to consider it. Do you think Solas would be getting as much emotional investment if he hadn't been an LI?

And both he and Cullen were last minute adds when they decided to extend the project a year.

[Master Warder Z_]

Scripting and recording an extra 5 minutes of dialogue isn't going to meaningfully impact the overall content

 

No, but several sessions of that to include over a dozen different preferences would.

 

.-. And I can tell you, some VA's demand a LOT of money to record.

 

Just look at what they claim to make a year or per game.

[Master Warder Z_]

Another way to consider it. Do you think Solas would be getting as much emotional investment if he hadn't been an LI?

 

When emotional investment transfers into financial be sure to let me know.

 

Those emotionally invested have already purchased that content, or became of aware it and then purchased it.

 

The premise that it would bring new blood into a franchise is flimsy, it secures those who would buy a sex doll of the character certainly just at the prospect of them potentially returning sure. But completely new people to the franchise? Do you think they care about some bald elf with a god complex? I'd doubt it highly.

[FKA_Servo]

No, but several sessions of that to include over a dozen different preferences would.

 

.-. And I can tell you, some VA's demand a LOT of money to record.

 

Just look at what they claim to make a year or per game.

 

The actors are there working already. I don't see why they'd call them up for "romance" recording day as opposed to just doing it when they're doing everything else.

 

I edited a post above asking you to clarify what you meant about Hale in KoTOR, but I think this answers my question. I don't agree with you, obviously.

[Ariella]

Remember, this is the BSN, where having a juvenile sexual/power wish fulfillment fantasy is more important than gameplay mechanics or having a coherent and consistent story.
 
This is the same fanbase that during the ME2 days was more concerned about not having their yuri/yaoi fetishes catered to, than that game having a laughable import system and lacking basic TPS mechanics like roll and cover to cover or it being a sequel(in name only) that threw the overarching story's out the window.
 
If one didn't know any better, by coming on this forum, they'd think ME(and DA) were AAA date sims with a combat minigame.

Last I checked, that lacking TPS mechanics like roll didn't exist in ME either, and yet you don't seem to be criticizing that one.

Yeah the import mechanic sucked. But Bioware's always had problems with that and has always tried to fix them. Thus the change to the Keep mechanic for DAI.

If it were a "dating sim" as you put it, I'd have expected things to go a great deal more in depth than either ME or DA goes.

Oh and there's an element of power fantasy here, but it's generally not from the part of the fan base that likes romances.