1315 réponses à ce sujet

[Angry_Elcor]

Maybe... Okay, I feel weird again. I don't like being the voice of reason, but maybe bringing up BSN's infamous pedophiles, wannabe rapists, and Elven sex slave advocates is not the best way to address the broad topic of BioWare romances. Acknowledging that I am, personally, at least partly to blame.

[Natureguy85]

did you read all of the now 875 responses and categorize them into one of the either two groups you mentioned? 

 

honest question is honest.

 

Well it's been awhile so I don't recall what I read at that point. I've read all since yours though.

However, the question is irrelevant and possibly disingenuous. I never said that all posts were in those two groups. I was referring to a specific type of post mentioned by Lady Artiface that clearly missed the point of the OP. So the real question is this; did you go back and see what Lady Artiface meant by "variation of this post"?

 

I'll tell you why this question is really strange: The first reason is that it is very obvious that he has read all the posts in the thread. The second is that he wasn't suggesting that every post falls into one of those two categories. The third is that the reason for his question is very obvious - he is asking Lady Artifice for clarification regarding what she said. The fourth is that your question doesn't really make any sense, in that the answer is obviously no. That means your question was not an honest one, it was a rhetorical one (and a pretty baffling one at that.)

 

I don't think they went back to Artifice's post to see what I was talking about.

 

To what point and purpose is the issue. It's not a big deal if you're choosing a sexual preference just to choose it. Pointless, since you can also just play the game with your sexuality of choice, but not a big deal. However, if you expect the other characters around your protagonist to magically adjust their own interests based on that, then you're getting into unexplained god-like power territory. 

 

I see what you mean but is it the Protagonist warping reality and changing characters or are you essentially selecting a different "world state"? For example, IIRC Anders has different dialogue after killing Karl for a female Hawke than a male one. Most relevantly, he will not imply the romantic relationship. This doesn't mean it didn't happen, but it could be an example of Anders being "player sexual" and it depends on which gender Hawke is chosen.

 

 

 

Completely agree.

 

I recall playing DA:I and talking to Cullen, about his history (mind you, this is very early in the game, and might even be my first conversation with him with the dialogue wheel). Anyway, out of nowhere a gay romance text appears in my wheel. I immediately thought to myself; "What did I do or say to initiate this?" Lol! Seriously, I gave him no complements or excessive positive reinforcements, but there it was.

 

Now, I'm not at all bashing gays, I'd never. But I do find it interesting that the text literally appeared out of nowhere. That screams dating sim to me.

 

Why? Everything has to start somewhere. The game is giving you the chance to start, not having you pick up from some previous response.

 

 

There's that, and the forced flirting with James (which admittedly is way less creepy, DLC date rape aside). Broshep's got Parasini and Steve's last conversation as well (you either express interest in him or talk about the strippers).

 

What? Was that a Citadel thing? The only DLC I played for 3 was Leviathan. What happened with Parasini? I know she might kiss Shepard but I don't recall Shepard indicating any interest in her. I suppose he didn't push her away in disgust. She annoyed me lol.

 

And it's been a long time since I played ME2, especially with my female Shepard... can someone remind me what Shepard says to Jacob that was so weird? Were there any other cases where Shepard shows an interest without you selecting an obvious romantic dialogue option? I mean other than ME1 throwing you into a romance for just being nice.

 

Kind of like those who accuse the creators of "pandering" (to use a polite term) when they make the game they apparently want to make, with the characters they want to write.

 

The last part does seem like good advice, though. Applicable to the the people who complain about the mere inclusion of romance subplots especially.

 

I can't speak for others but my issue was the changes to existing characters, not new ones.

 

It's an extra dozen lines or so added to the word budget and recorded by actors who are already there recording the rest of their performance. Until recently it was a negligible amount of new cinematic work. That's gotten more in-depth, especially in DAI, but it's still hardly anything compared with the rest of the narrative and companion content that I assume you have no issues with.

 

I can't source this, unfortunately, but I do recall hearing at some point that the ROI on romance content versus the actual expense in implementing it is staggering. That's not difficult for me to believe either way - and much of that is thanks to the "whimsical headcanons" you think so highly of.

 

This makes some sense. Bioware's strength is writing interesting and compelling characters. The interest in romance could be seen as a natural result of people's investment into those characters. For example, Mass Effect 2 was carried entirely by its characters because the main plot was awful.

 

Another way to consider it. Do you think Solas would be getting as much emotional investment if he hadn't been an LI?

And both he and Cullen were last minute adds when they decided to extend the project a year.

 

I didn't play DAI so I can't speak to those characters specifically, but Mordin and Wrex were both beloved Mass Effect characters but were not LI options.

 

Or it can be excused due to the fact that this game isn't a TPS.

 

I won't pile on anymore other than to say this was hilarious.

 

What form?

 

This one

 

[Natureguy85]

Because I don't know who Wrex is during character creation. But I do know who I want my character to be.

 

Well, while you can play someone who doesn't have a sexual relationship the games have had Shepard express interest in people in a way that is not fitting with a playthrough where the player wants to play as an asexual, demisexual, or other parts of the Grey-A spectrum.

 

I know nobody will defend it. I was just saying that was a case where the player can't play their character as ace/demi since Shepard clerarly shows sexual attraction towards Jacob. 

 

While not egregious like the thing with Jacob, the romances themselves were also not supportive of people who are and/or wanted to play ace/demi with the fact that all romances both have Shepard showing sexual attraction and having sex be a mandatory part of the romance. You either had to sleep with them or break the entire romance off. The only LI where this is not the case is Kelly Chambers, which is left ambiguous how their relationship went after having a dinner date. 

 

When was it the producer's job to cater to any taste or demographic other then what they specify said content for?

 

Hindsight and all.

 

Wasn't made for that, shouldn't be applied to that just to suit some whimsical headcanon.

 

I never said it was. I just said it was an instance where some players couldn't play the kind of character they wanted. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Not hostile just tired of having people wanting to play out their fantasies in scenarios never designed for them.

 

Then blaming said creators of scenarios for that, and then labeling them as 'politically incorrect' to use a polite labeling. 

 

Honestly even if that were the case, I say its their damn product, they can market it to be what they want. Don't like it? Don't buy it or do buy it and don't be as picky or easily offended.

 

For sure, but since that product happens to be an rpg, is it so entirely unreasonable to at least consider the degree to which the player is allowed to decide who the protagonist feels attraction to? 

 

 

I lumped all these together to make one point. What many people don't seem to realize is that Shepard is a far more defined character than, for example, the Warden. You really don't have as much control over who Shepard is as people want.

[Madrict]

They better include romances, that's why I buy Bioware games. Specifically for their inclusion of M/M romances which are pretty rare in games.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I lumped all these together to make one point. What many people don't seem to realize is that Shepard is a far more defined character than, for example, the Warden. You really don't have as much control over who Shepard is as people want.

Then Bioware shouldn't sell them as "your character" when they are that predefined and/or Bioware wants to assume how the players will play them. 

[Seboist]

Then Bioware shouldn't sell them as "your character" when they are that predefined and/or Bioware wants to assume how the players will play them. 

 

Bioware seems to have tried going for the middle ground route between blank slate and predefined(ala Witcher's Geralt) in ME, it's not a bad concept, but given how what Shepard can say and do is changed on a whim between games, the end result was... lackluster. Just look at how Shepard's political stances from ME1(whether human nationalist or pro-cooperation) were disregarded in ME2, as well as his character backgrounds.

[Natureguy85]

Then Bioware shouldn't sell them as "your character" when they are that predefined and/or Bioware wants to assume how the players will play them. 

 

Maybe, but Shepard is still your character to some extent, just not as much as in Origins. I could tell the difference from playing the games, but it Bioware has said this before though I don't know how widely spread it was.

 

In comparing Mass Effect and Origins:

 

"In Mass Effect it's more a third-person narrative, where you have a pre-defined character who is who he is, or she is,"

 

"But it's not a wide-open choice matrix. It's more choice on a tactical level with a pre-defined character. So they're different types of narratives, and that's intentional."

 

The Mass Effect games are about "[Commander] Shepard as a defined character with certain approaches and worldviews"

 

"So we constrain the choice set somewhat, but enable more tactical choices and enable a deeper, richer personality, because it's more focused around defining one character, it's not as wide open. But that's by choice."

 

Dragon Age, for its part, "is a first-person narrative" where "you are that character at a fundamental level"

 

 

BioWare co-founder Dr Ray Muzyka in 2010

[Lady Artifice]

Bad manners.

 

Blunt perhaps, but I'm not sure that in this case there's anyone in particular to offend. Of course if the internet's feelings are hurt too badly, I'll apologize.

[SardaukarElite]

However, the reason of course ME1 and certain of games were better is because of the doctors who preached humility and understanding and made that a core value of their company, something it seems modern Bioware and their fans have yet to learn.

 

The irony is strong with this one. 

[DaemionMoadrin]

I'm having a discussion with Elcor, feel free to join if you want, or continue to mischaracterize, whatever. 

 

Anyway as far as lesbianism is concerned, there's like 7 shades basically, it's quite a topic.

 

There's like the lesbian/gay in the sense of just kissed a guy/gal to appear more edgy, which is Sera, who really isn't lesbian. There's lesbian like Cassandra/Dorian where it's more an actual concerted passion for the same sex, and then there's where it's just the tip of bisexuality where a person starts expressing sexuality in ways that go beyond same sex interaction.

 

I'm not really sure what you wanted to know though.

 

You know nothing. Your entire post proves that. Especially the part about Cassandra being lesbian. Hilarious.

 

Wow, I think this is the funniest thread I've ever read.

 

Funny, cringeworthy... yeah. If I ever get mod powers here, I'd probably burn half the forum to the ground in an effort to clean up.

[Synthetic Turian]

Blunt perhaps, but I'm not sure that in this case there's anyone in particular to offend. Of course if the internet's feelings are hurt too badly, I'll apologize.

 

No need. Besides the damage is done. But I wonder about why you chose to put your personality as you signature? Is it to remind yourself to constantly adhere to a personality that actually isn't your own?

[SnakeCode]

Bioware seems to have tried going for the middle ground route between blank slate and predefined(ala Witcher's Geralt) in ME, it's not a bad concept, but given how what Shepard can say and do is changed on a whim between games, the end result was... lackluster. Just look at how Shepard's political stances from ME1(whether human nationalist or pro-cooperation) were disregarded in ME2, as well as his character backgrounds.

 

I think that's most likely due to changes within Bioware itself. In games like ME1 and DA:O you could have your characters hold some fairly controversial views, as well as a few opportunities to have them act upon them. As Bioware have moved into a more "progressive" role within the industry, they have certainly cut back on "problematic" content. ME3 and DA:I illustrate this perfectly, as both games kind of force you to be a cookie-cutter good guy. ME3 by harshly punishing any renegade decision, and Inquisition by not including that kind of content at all.

[Helios969]

Do not 'don't do romances.'  How's that for a double-negative?

 

In all serious though, I'm kind of on the fence about them since they've been reduced to a few flirt options, solve a problem or two, and bang, let's do the horizontal tango.  I don't consider that anything akin to romance...that's just satisfying lust.  Give me a love interest from the start...a family, whose existence is on the line if I f*ck up.  It would give, me at least, a sense of urgency to my actions.  Aside from something like that, or at least a new approach to romances altogether, they are becoming something I can take or leave.

[Valdez_ua]

Can you cite a specific example to illustrate what you mean?

Specific example is that there are 8 potential LI among your squad mates and inner circle. That is exactly the proof that they were injected there because writer had to please everyone(straight M/F, homosexual M/F, bisexuals, talilovers, garruslovers etc.) and not because he had some idea, which he wrote from a beginning to an end without looking back at the army of whiners on the forum. 

 

 

Not true. Bioware has repeatedly stated that the LIs aren't determined until after the characters and their story arcs are determined. When that's done, they look them over and see which ones could have a romance arc fit the character. 

Exactly! They don't create a character as a whole with romance from the beginning, they just add those romances later to please everybody. That is completely artificial.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You know nothing. Your entire post proves that. Especially the part about Cassandra being lesbian. Hilarious.

And how Sera isn't really a lesbian, despite her and her writer saying she is. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Exactly! They don't create a character as a whole with romance from the beginning, they just add those romances later to please everybody. That is completely artificial.

No, they add those romances because they think it will enhance the story or it's just a story they want to tell. If the romance arcs were written solely to please fans, they wouldn't have ones like the LI effectively dumping you or occasionally even worse things like them cheating on you since that doesn't make the fans who want to romance that character happy. 

[Synthetic Turian]

And how Sera isn't really a lesbian, despite her and her writer saying she is. 

 

The fact that Sera was a lesbian made me hate the game that much more. Has anyone you seen Sera's figure close up? She's a stunning piece of pixels.

[Valdez_ua]

No, they add those romances because they think it will enhance the story or it's just a story they want to tell. If the romance arcs were written solely to please fans, they wouldn't have ones like the LI effectively dumping you or occasionally even worse things like them cheating on you since that doesn't make the fans who want to romance that character happy. 

You think so? Than you think they added Garrus and Tali romance in ME2, and turned Kaiden bisexual in ME3 because they just wanted so and not because they had to please fans army with endless "Make %SQUADMATE_NAME% romanceable" threads?

[Shechinah]

You think so? Than you think they added Garrus and Tali romance in ME2, and turned Kaiden bisexual in ME3 because they just wanted so and not because they had to please fans army with endless "Make %SQUADMATE_NAME% romanceable" threads?

 

It could also be less that they had to do it and more that they decided to do it because they could see the potential in adding a romantic aspect to the companionship of those characters and so they decided to fufill the request because they decided they wanted to try and write it. 

 

Sometimes that actually is the case even in works such as television series, book series or game series; someone sees a request, post or speculation and considers it to be an interesting idea to explore.

 

To anyone that may know; was the theory that Kaidan and Ashley were originally intended to be romanceable by both genders in Mass Effect ever given confirmation by a legitimate source or is it still speculation?
 

[Seboist]

The fact that Sera was a lesbian made me hate the game that much more. Has anyone you seen Sera's figure close up? She's a stunning piece of pixels.

 

Not sure about her figure, but her pig face makes her a 2/10 WNB in my eyes, and if you add in her obnoxious persona, then it's 0/10 WNB.

[Synthetic Turian]

Not sure about her figure, but her pig face makes her a 2/10 WNB in my eyes, and if you add in her obnoxious persona, then it's 0/10 WNB.

 

Her flawless figure is shown when taking control of her and walking with her slowly.

 

Her face deformity can be easily rectified with a helmet

 

Her personality? Well, I wont disagree with you on that. She's so weird and kind of annoying.

[Valdez_ua]

It could also be less that they had to do it and more that they decided to do it because they could see the potential in adding a romantic aspect to the companionship of those characters and so they decided to fufill the request because they decided they wanted to try and write it.   

 

Was the theory that Kaidan and Ashley were originally intended to be romanceable by both genders in Mass Effect ever given confirmation by a legitimate source or is it still speculation?
 

There is potential romantic aspect in every character and squad mate. And there is definitely going to be somebody among players who would like that. Considering that millions are playing bioware games there will be thousands of people demanding it. 
I just want bioware games stories to have integrity. And in order to do so, writers have to wright everything without need to satisfy sexual and romantic fantasies of everyone. Just imagine Tolkien would have written "Fellowship of the Ring" and then listen to all the whiners with their threads like "Make Denetor and Galadriel romance in the second part", "Gollum and Arwen romance appreciation thread", "Make Gendalf bisexual". Would Lord of the Rings be a solid story then?

[AWTEW]

Instead of removing them, they need to go back to the two-bi two straight formula. Everyone had a choice, and it's less taxing on rescources.

[Tarot Redhand]

Romances in computer games are just creepy. Play the (Yech) Sims if you want them.

 

TR

[FKA_Servo]

Specific example is that there are for example 8 potential LI among your squad mates and inner circle. That is exactly the proof that they were injected there because writer had to please everyone(straight M/F, homosexual M/F, bisexuals, talilovers, garruslovers etc.) and not because he had some idea, which he wrote from a beginning to an end without looking back at the army of whiners on the forum.

So you don't have a specific example of characterization that has suffered due to this, but you just know it must have because of all that "pandering."

That certainly seems definitive.

Blunt perhaps, but I'm not sure that in this case there's anyone in particular to offend. Of course if the internet's feelings are hurt too badly, I'll apologize.

Please don't. Assuming the BSN is a microcosm of the larger Internet, It's safe to say that you can broadly treat their disdain as a badge of honor. Recent developments in thread in particular reinforce this.