1315 réponses à ce sujet

[Shechinah]

There is potential romantic aspect in every character and squad mate. And there is definitely going to be somebody among players who would like that. Considering that millions are playing bioware games there will be thousands of people demanding it. 
I just want bioware games stories to have integrity. And in order to do so, writers have to wright everything without need to satisfy sexual and romantic fantasies of everyone. Just imagine Tolkien would have written "Fellowship of the Ring" and then listen to all the whiners with their threads like "Make Denetor and Galadriel romance in the second part", "Gollum and Arwen romance appreciation thread", "Make Gendalf bisexual". Would Lord of the Rings be a solid story then?

 

This seems to bear the implication that if something is requested, demanded or speculated then it must implemented on that alone. Was that intended?

 

If so then I'll have to disagree since I see plenty of requests, demands and theories put forth that are and have not been implemented regardless of how much they were requested and how well-liked the ideas in question were. This also applies in regards to non-romance related ideas.

 

To make a romance-related example; I may be mistaken but I do not believe Wrex recieved a romance despite requests made by some players.
 

[Catastrophy]

It had other gems like this one, which I much prefer.

 

 

Here's a recording I did of it: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1UTBCT7r7cn

I fail to see the weird part.

[Natureguy85]

Because every LI character's history and personality is written with an eye for potential romance. So a lot of things has to be added or deleted because of this. And when it is done to almost every squad mate it creates a certain vibe that all of this is pretty artificial and put in this game because of endless whining on the forums and not because writers wanted to do so. So it basically ruins integrity of the story and characters, leaving writers with less freedom.

 

 

Specific example is that there are 8 potential LI among your squad mates and inner circle. That is exactly the proof that they were injected there because writer had to please everyone(straight M/F, homosexual M/F, bisexuals, talilovers, garruslovers etc.) and not because he had some idea, which he wrote from a beginning to an end without looking back at the army of whiners on the forum. 

 

 

Exactly! They don't create a character as a whole with romance from the beginning, they just add those romances later to please everybody. That is completely artificial.

 

Wait, these seem contradictory. On the one hand you claim the characters were written with an eye for romance, then you say they weren't and the romances were added. I lean more toward the romances being written separately. Is that what you view as a problem, since it's like attaching a separate part characterization onto an already complete character rather than being woven into the creation? That's what I gather from the 2nd part of the 2nd quote. That certainly makes sense and I would see it as more of a problem if the romances were more wound into the main narrative rather than being a side show. Maybe that's your point, but that's an issue with doing this in a role playing game rather than a more streamlined story where you have a defined character and the author(s) put that character with a particular love interest. So unless they go the latter route, which would cause an even greater fan outcry, there's little to be done about that. However, I would suggest that there is a great difference between making popular characters like Garrus and Tali into LIs or creating new characters to include someone else, and changing an existing one, as with Kaidan.

 

That there are X number of romances, some added later in the series, doesn't prove anything about the characters themselves, though you are likely correct about the number of romances. Otherwise there

[Valdez_ua]

So you don't have a specific example of characterization that has suffered due to this, but you just know it must have because of all that "pandering."

That certainly seems definitive.

For me a specific example is all DAI party, which almost entirely consists of potential LI. And all of the relations are turned to a primitive date sim like "Hi!--You have nice ass--Take this present--Lets go have sex". This quantity over quality turned them shallow and meaningless. You can just dump anybody without any implications to the story and start relations with another. I would prefer to have 1 or 2 romances but written through all the story, not just "solve my personal quest and lets go f**k in the bushes". Your party is not a brothel where you can pick anyone you like and then dump them without any consequences and pick another. That is a result of "please everybody" policy.

 

 

This seems to bear the implication that if something is requested, demanded or speculated then it must implemented on that alone. Was that intended?

 

If so then I'll have to disagree since I see plenty of requests, demands and theories put forth that are and have not been implemented regardless of how much they were requested and how well-liked the ideas in question were. This also applies in regards to non-romance related ideas.

 

To make a romance-related example; I may be mistaken but I do not believe Wrex recieved a romance despite requests made by some players.
 

Of course they couldn't fulfill all requests because there were literally thousands of them, but they implemented a BIG lot of them. More than any other studio.
To make romance-related example they added Tali, Garrus and turned Kaiden bisexual. Especially Kaiden, that's just so realistic to be straight during first and second part and turn bisexual in third. I'm sure it was writers idea from the start.

A solid story is something like Babylon 5 tv series where all 3 seasons were written by Straczynski before filming. But late bioware games is something like Fringe where they spontaneously add something in a middle of a process, just to please fans.

Modifié par Valdez_ua, 20 novembre 2015 - 01:10 .

[Synthetic Turian]

For me a specific example is all DAI party, which almost entirely consists of potential LI. And all of the relations are turned to a primitive date sim like "Hi!--You have nice ass--Take this present--Lets go have sex". This quantity over quality turned them shallow and meaningless. You can just dump anybody without any implications to the story and start relations with another. I would prefer to have 1 or 2 romances but written through all the story, not just "solve my personal quest and lets go f**k in the bushes". Your party is not a brothel where you can pick anyone you like and then dump them without any consequences and pick another.

[FKA_Servo]

For me a specific example is all DAI party, which almost entirely consists of potential LI. And all of the relations are turned to a primitive date sim like "Hi!--You have nice ass--Take this present--Lets go have sex". This quantity over quality turned them shallow and meaningless. You can just dump anybody without any implications to the story and start relations with another. I would prefer to have 1 or 2 romances but written through all the story, not just "solve my personal quest and lets go f**k in the bushes". Your party is not a brothel where you can pick anyone you like and then dump them without any consequences and pick another. That is a result of "please everybody" policy.

 

That's not a specific example, that's the same broad, vague example you've been giving that also isn't actually an example. It's not at all apparent to me that any of those romanceable characters have suffered or been simplified simply because they're open to romance for some potential player characters.

 

I'm not really sure what I expected, though.

 

Of course they couldn't fulfill all requests because there were literally thousands of them, but they implemented a BIG lot of them. More than any other studio.
To make romance-related example they added Tali, Garrus and turned Kaiden bisexual. Especially Kaiden, that's just so realistic to be straight during first and second part and turn bisexual in third. I'm sure it was writers idea from the start.

 

I'm not arguing that they didn't implement things that their fans wanted, I'm rejecting that the characterization suffered because of it.

 

And again, you're not romancing everyone (or even anyone) in a given story. They're all just potential branches that don't actually exist until they do.
 

A solid story is something like Babylon 5 tv series where all 3 seasons were written by Straczynski before filming. But late bioware games is something like Fringe where they spontaneously add something in a middle of a process, just to please fans.

 

This goes hand in hand to your Lord of the Rings example, and both of them are, I think, irrelevant. A tightly authored, singularly directed, non-interactive work of fiction is a much different animal than a collaborative, interactive, (and most crucially here) variable work of fiction, and to be honest, they're capable of distinctly disparate heights. You're comparing apples to aardvarks.

[KaiserShep]

For me a specific example is all DAI party, which almost entirely consists of potential LI. And all of the relations are turned to a primitive date sim like "Hi!--You have nice ass--Take this present--Lets go have sex". This quantity over quality turned them shallow and meaningless. You can just dump anybody without any implications to the story and start relations with another. I would prefer to have 1 or 2 romances but written through all the story, not just "solve my personal quest and lets go f**k in the bushes". Your party is not a brothel where you can pick anyone you like and then dump them without any consequences and pick another. That is a result of "please everybody" policy.



Of course they couldn't fulfill all requests because there were literally thousands of them, but they implemented a BIG lot of them. More than any other studio.
To make romance-related example they added Tali, Garrus and turned Kaiden bisexual. Especially Kaiden, that's just so realistic to be straight during first and second part and turn bisexual in third. I'm sure it was writers idea from the start.
A solid story is something like Babylon 5 tv series where all 3 seasons were written by Straczynski before filming. But late bioware games is something like Fringe where they spontaneously add something in a middle of a process, just to please fans.

I think that the important thing is that the characters don't lack for content if you avoid most or all of the romances altogether. DA:I doesn't really have this problem, since you can get lots of dialogue with everyone with nary an amorous comment, but Mass Effect 2, for example, certainly does.

[Donk]

It had other gems like this one, which I much prefer.

 

 

Here's a recording I did of it: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1UTBCT7r7cn

 

[Valdez_ua]

That's not a specific example, that's the same broad, vague example you've been giving that also isn't actually an example. It's not at all apparent to me that any of those romanceable characters have suffered or been simplified simply because they're open to romance for some potential player characters.

How can I give you a specific example? In order to give it, I must have some other "original" script that existed before they rewrote it to please all fans and compare it to what we have. But it never existed, so all I can give is what I feel and what I can compare for example to Wild Hunt love stories. For me even a gwent love story was better integrated into the W3 narrative, then all love stories in DAI, except for Solas, which had depth and potential.

 

I'm not arguing that they didn't implement things that their fans wanted, I'm rejecting that the characterization suffered because of it.

 

And again, you're not romancing everyone (or even anyone) in a given story. They're all just potential branches that don't actually exist until they do.

Well, that's a matter of the opinion. In my opinion, the more writers begin to look back at the fans, the more shallow characters and romances become.
 

This goes hand in hand to your Lord of the Rings example, and both of them are, I think, irrelevant. A tightly authored, singularly directed, non-interactive work of fiction is a much different animal than a collaborative, interactive, (and most crucially here) variable work of fiction, and to be honest, they're capable of distinctly disparate heights. You're comparing apples to aardvarks.

I disagree with you. Books, movies, tv series, games are just stories that are told in a different ways and I prefer to see or read them the way author wanted them and not the way some collective brain from the internet wants. But again, that's the matter of the opinion, but I know that after DAI I won't buy any game from this series unless I know that bioware chose quality over quantity.

[FKA_Servo]

I disagree with you. Books, movies, tv series, games are just stories that are told in a different ways and I prefer to see or read them the way author wanted them and not the way some collective brain from the internet wants.

 

This doesn't actually contradict what I wrote at all.

[Lulupab]

You think so? Than you think they added Garrus and Tali romance in ME2, and turned Kaiden bisexual in ME3 because they just wanted so and not because they had to please fans army with endless "Make %SQUADMATE_NAME% romanceable" threads?

 

Not sure about Garrus or Talli romance, but sexual tension between male shepard and Kaidan was building up in ME1. It was just awkward for some reason and kinda funny. This was NOT the case with female shepard and Ashely and thus the scenario in which Kaidan is bisexual and Ashely is straight is quite believable in ME3. In my opinion anyway.

[SNascimento]

That guy nailed the fact the Asari were engineered by other people. Good post.

Anyway, I'd say no romance would likely result in better teammates with more agency and plot involvement as Bioware would not have to worry about being fair to players who romanced this or that character. Not that you need no romance to do that, but still. 

Edit: Actually, I think I might be a bit off here. Romance didn't stop the butchery of ME2 squadmates in ME3, but in a way the butchery was very systematic, so there is some fairness there. But apart from Liara, I don't think any other squadmates was too protected by the plot, so it's not like Bioware was afraid to kill Garrus or Tali for example. 

Hmm, I'll settle for Bioware just continuing to create great characters. Romance or not. But don't butcher them latter! 

[Synthetic Turian]

Romance < Gunplay

[daveliam]

So much to say about this thread and so little time.

 

Again, the only thing that I'll point is that anyone who thinks that Kaidan's sexuality 'came out of nowhere' was simply not paying attention.  Yes, it was almost certainly implemented with the intention of giving another m/m option.  But to act as if it was some drastic change in his characterization is, simply, laughable from my perspective.  He gave no indication that he wasn't into guys in the first two games (and, in fact, gave slight indications that he was kind of into male Shep).  And he acted absolutely no different in ME3 outside of being able to engage in romance content with male Shep.

 

Basically, Kaidan's sexuality in ME3 did nothing to weaken his characterization.  It was a neutral to positive change only and it fit perfectly well with his personality from the first two games. 

[KaiserShep]

Romance < Gunplay

I'm happier with both.

As for Kaidan, I think that in general, the only thing that weakened this character was his lack of involvement for the first half or so of the game. Ashley got an even shorter end of the stick and she remained a straight companion the whole trilogy.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

I was completely unaware that there was resentment over Kaiden's sexuality (although, I guess I should hardly be surprised.)

 

I don't really venture into the kind of threads where that sort of discussion takes place very often, though, so I haven't been exposed to it.

 

 

And, of course, it is the wont of those complaining about something they don't like, especially on BSN, to make it seem like a very serious issue bothering a large number of people, when the vast majority of players are never even going to notice the details causing the ruckus in the first place.

[Master Warder Z_]

I was completely unaware that there was resentment over Kaiden's sexuality (although, I guess I should hardly be surprised.)

 

I don't really venture into the kind of threads where that sort of discussion takes place very often, though, so I haven't been exposed to it.

 

 

And, of course, it is the wont of those complaining about something they don't like, especially on BSN, to make it seem like a very serious issue bothering a large number of people, when the vast majority of players are never even going to notice the details causing the ruckus in the first place.

 

I personally thought it came out of left field, but that was due to him ya know, having romantic feelings for a girl in his little backstory and no indicators for any latent homosexual feelings towards his male commander.

 

.-.

 

So I was more 'so if I leave him alive after Virimire ogles Shepard or something'?

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

The lack of rolling and cover to cover was indeed a problem in ME1, but that can be excused by being a first entry and attempt at such a genre by this company, ME2 OTOH, with it's lack of pretense of being an RPG and being a second entry, cannot be excused at all.

ME/DA not being actual dating sims doesn't phase the "romance" obsessed from treating it like it is, that said "romance" content is brief, and quite frankly, laughably written("da priiiiiize") doesn't either. One would think it was a big part of the game, given how i've seen 5+ threads on the front page of the DAI board in the past on it.

If BW had any sense, they'd cut down on the "romance" content on their games and purge their forums of this taint on the reputation of their brand, that a gives a very false impression of what their games are about. They're a complete laughing stock through out the internet because of it.

I still laugh at that site, seeing my post quoted by Mike Laidlaw

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I personally thought it came out of left field, but that was due to him ya know, having romantic feelings for a girl in his little backstory and no indicators for any latent homosexual feelings towards his male commander.

.-.

So I was more 'so if I leave him alive after Virimire ogles Shepard or something'?

I just finished a dudeshep play through with Kaidan alive. He never gave any sign of romantic interest.

[Lady Artifice]

I see what you mean but is it the Protagonist warping reality and changing characters or are you essentially selecting a different "world state"? For example, IIRC Anders has different dialogue after killing Karl for a female Hawke than a male one. Most relevantly, he will not imply the romantic relationship. This doesn't mean it didn't happen, but it could be an example of Anders being "player sexual" and it depends on which gender Hawke is chosen.

 

You can look at it that way, certainly. I don't. Anders expresses himself differently with a female Hawke than he does a male Hawke, similarly to how Zevran, Leliana, and Isabela all flirt differently with a female protagonist than they do with a male protagonist, but they're all choosing to do that on their own. I rather like that they both acknowledge and consider the gender of the object of their affection in their approach, but I don't really believe in "player sexual" characters. I think the concept is related to confusion about how the same character can react differently in different situations. 

 

Funny, cringeworthy... yeah. If I ever get mod powers here, I'd probably burn half the forum to the ground in an effort to clean up.

 

 

This being the internet, it would probably just regrow into exactly the same environment. 

 

No need. Besides the damage is done. 

 

 

Well, that's dramatic. What damage are you referring to? 

 

 

But I wonder about why you chose to put your personality as you signature? Is it to remind yourself to constantly adhere to a personality that actually isn't your own?

 

 

It's a sort of in-game motto, and also kind of an inside joke. I'd be very curious to learn how a submachine gun could qualify as an aspect of personality, though. 

 

It's true that I'm not always as polite or as kind as I aspire to be, but I disagree that this is an example of that. The internet is a broad landscape, and it doesn't have any feelings to offend, so open criticism of the degree of idiocy inside of that landscape is not rudeness. 

[Angry_Elcor]

I'd be very curious to learn how a submachine gun could qualify as an aspect of personality, though. 

 

 

Closest that I could come up with (acknowledging that he is not, in fact, holding a sub-machine gun.)

[Synthetic Turian]

It's true that I'm not always as polite or as kind as I aspire to be.

 

Right you are.

[Master Warder Z_]

 

Closest that I could come up with (acknowledging that he is not, in fact, holding a sub-machine gun.)

 

Assault rifles are better anyway

[Lady Artifice]

Right you are.

 

Are you...actually trying to zing me by suggesting that I'm not very nice? 

 

I mean, I could maybe see that working if it actually came from someone who exemplified kindness themselves, but you...don't. 

[Commander Rpg]

Are you...actually trying to zing me by suggesting that I'm not very nice?

He did, lol.

Defensive rhetoric is more detrimental than useful when self-preserving oneself.