1315 réponses à ce sujet

[Natureguy85]

Of course as video games gameplay is always going to be a huge consideration, but should it always be the first priority? 

 

I'd argue that within the RPG genre at least, those priorities should be reversed. Or at least it should within RPGs that are more focused on story and the characters inhabiting the game world, than exploration of the game world. When gameplay is given a higher priority in story or character driven RPGs, it often creates problems within the story.

 

A good example of the above would be the outsized role Cerberus plays in Mass Effect 3, to the extent that they sometimes overshadowed the series' main antagonists. The decision to have Cerberus play so large a role was no doubt influenced at least in part by the desire to present the player with a variety of different enemies to fight. While it succeeded in providing the player with different gameplay challenges, it also created issues with the story that were largely unpopular. Was it really a worthwhile tradeoff? I'd argue no.

 

That is a good question. The short answer is yes, but the long answer is more complicated. Some may depend on the player.

 

The long answer is that they are not mutually exclusive. The gameplay is what you will spend most of your time doing. If that's bad, you are going to have a hard time getting through the whole game to the story parts. Think of all the complaints about the Deep Roads in Dragon Age Origins. I really liked how the story was going in Kingdoms of Amalur, but didn't finish it. I was getting bored with the combat and after losing a chunk of save data, I didn't feel playing anymore. I think I just need to make a more interesting build, to be honest and will probably pick it up again eventually.

 

However, yes, in certain genres, the story and characters are more important than in others, especially in distinguishing between two games of the same genre. For example, I don't usually find JRPG style turn based combat all that appealing, but I loved Chrono Trigger. And while the mechanics and gameplay were really fun, what I remember more looking back on it are, indeed, the characters and story.

 

As to the specific example, that is an issue with implementation, not ideology. They simply made too many missions about Cerberus and gave them more interesting enemy variety. There was no reason to do it in that way.

[SnakeCode]

Without good gameplay, it's not a good game, it's that simple. Gameplay is precisely what seperates videogames from other mediums, if all of the effort is focused on the story and characters and none on making sure the game around them is enjoyable, then it may as well be one of those other mediums.

[SardaukarElite]

I think seeing gameplay and story as quantities that need to be balanced is part of why they're often mismatched.

 

Gameplay delivers story, story frames gameplay. If one is underdeveloped then the other is weaker for it. 

 

You shouldn't have changed this post. You calling Artifice ineloquent was too funny.

 

It's hilarious, though also kind of weird and personal. 

[Angry_Elcor]

Your wish, shall not be my command.

 

You have assumed a level of specificity* that was not intended. I am amused, however, that you have reacted this way to a post that was actually about Lady Artifice addressing multiple criticisms from more than one source. If you were to look deeply into my words, and let them roll around your mouth like wine before swallowing, you would probably gather that 90% of my material would evaporate like vino aftertaste if posters like you were to stop responding.

 

 

 

*I'm just doing my part to keep up with the new sophistimicated tone of the thread.

[Natureguy85]

You have assumed a level of specificity* that was not intended. I am amused, however, that you have reacted this way to a post that was actually about Lady Artifice addressing multiple criticisms from more than one source. If you were to look deeply into my words, and let them roll around your mouth like wine before swallowing, you would probably gather that 90% of my material would evaporate like vino aftertaste if posters like you were to stop responding.

 

 

 

*I'm just doing my part to keep up with the new sophistimicated tone of the thread.

 

It's spelled sophistimacated.

[agonis]

....Aaaand, we leave the sophisticated and glide softly into the crazy....

[Synthetic Turian]

You humans with your romances. Its one of the main things, that makes you weak!

[Angry_Elcor]

It's spelled sophistimacated.

 

I'll have you know that in high school, I always received an A on spelling tests for made up words.

[Seraphim24]

That is a good question. The short answer is yes, but the long answer is more complicated. Some may depend on the player.

 

The long answer is that they are not mutually exclusive. The gameplay is what you will spend most of your time doing. If that's bad, you are going to have a hard time getting through the whole game to the story parts. Think of all the complaints about the Deep Roads in Dragon Age Origins. I really liked how the story was going in Kingdoms of Amalur, but didn't finish it. I was getting bored with the combat and after losing a chunk of save data, I didn't feel playing anymore. I think I just need to make a more interesting build, to be honest and will probably pick it up again eventually.

 

However, yes, in certain genres, the story and characters are more important than in others, especially in distinguishing between two games of the same genre. For example, I don't usually find JRPG style turn based combat all that appealing, but I loved Chrono Trigger. And while the mechanics and gameplay were really fun, what I remember more looking back on it are, indeed, the characters and story.

 

As to the specific example, that is an issue with implementation, not ideology. They simply made too many missions about Cerberus and gave them more interesting enemy variety. There was no reason to do it in that way.

 

The simple fact is that story and gameplay are pretty much completely integrated.

 

It's not really either or, a lot of people, in making games are also making characters and vice versa.

 

You can even hear David Gaider talk about it in interviews,  he says it's sort of a character but it's also kind of how the player is likely to respond or use this other character that's like the gameplay portion. 

 

Chrono Trigger is also a good example.

[Seboist]

Without good gameplay, it's not a good game, it's that simple. Gameplay is precisely what seperates videogames from other mediums, if all of the effort is focused on the story and characters and none on making sure the game around them is enjoyable, then it may as well be one of those other mediums.

 

Story in gaming is like great OSTs, a luxury that's not essential. Some of the greatest games I've played had minimal to nonexistent plots, and didn't suffer from it one iota, but OTOH, I've played some with "complex" stories that did suffer, case and point, the ME "trilogy", with it's Ed Wood level schlock writing with things like Lazarus, Space Terminator, starchild, reaper motivation and Cerberus Sith Empire.

[Il Divo]

Of course as video games gameplay is always going to be a huge consideration, but should it always be the first priority? 

 

I'd argue that within the RPG genre at least, those priorities should be reversed. Or at least it should within RPGs that are more focused on story and the characters inhabiting the game world, than exploration of the game world. When gameplay is given a higher priority in story or character driven RPGs, it often creates problems within the story.

 

A good example of the above would be the outsized role Cerberus plays in Mass Effect 3, to the extent that they sometimes overshadowed the series' main antagonists. The decision to have Cerberus play so large a role was no doubt influenced at least in part by the desire to present the player with a variety of different enemies to fight. While it succeeded in providing the player with different gameplay challenges, it also created issues with the story that were largely unpopular. Was it really a worthwhile tradeoff? I'd argue no.

 

This is why I can never get into Diablo. And most gameplay focused experiences, without some kind of narrative focus.

 

If I don't care about why I'm doing what I'm doing, I get bored very quickly. In general, I find multiplayer games boring for that very reason. Dark Souls is probably the only example of a game where I thought this was handled very well.

 

Outside of that, especially in the RPG genre, I'd rather games place heavy emphasis on story, to replicate the tabletop experience (as much as they can).
 

[Seraphim24]

Story in gaming is like great OSTs, a luxury that's not essential. Some of the greatest games I've played had minimal to nonexistent plots, and didn't suffer from it one iota, but OTOH, I've played some with "complex" stories that did suffer, case and point, the ME "trilogy", with it's Ed Wood level schlock writing with things like Lazarus, Space Terminator, starchild, reaper motivation and Cerberus Sith Empire.

 

+4

 

Edit: Whoa! Whoa sorry scratch that, disagree about that OST part, everything else though still good.

 

Although I will say I don't have much interest in wildly extravagant orchestral things, per se, it just has to have a solid base works best for me.

 

I have a strong attachment to the Pallet town theme just as much as Pallet town in many ways

 

Spoiler

[Selene Moonsong]

Quite frankly, I enjoy BioWare's telling of stories as they flesh out a world or campaign in s series of games.

That BioWare includes various romance options in their games makes the charecters feel a little more 'alive'.

Is romance needed in order for creating a great game? The answer is no, there have been many great games over the past 25 years without romances included.

However, I became a fan of BioWare staring with the Baldur's Gate series of games and continue to be a fan through their most recent games because I do enjoy the romances. Romance has been a part of their formula for many years and I always look forward to them.

Besides, since romances are optional, they have little impact on a game unless the player does prefer to participate in them. So, I see no reason not to contue to include romances in their games.

[Malthier]

I don't know what has  made you sad, but I hope you can find someway to be happier.

 

Spare me the sanctimony kiddo. Im not sad. Im annoyed. Youve been talking about how youre the smartest of all for days now but you cant even understand that people can talk about book stories and video game stories at the same time. Dont be surprised when someone calls it bilge. 

[Natureguy85]

Some of this is based on genre. For the RPG, in order to Play the Role, there must be an engaging world in which to do so. If you go in with an expectation of story, story will be more important to you. Since people play Bioware games with the expectation of quality writing, poor writing stands out.

[KaiserShep]

Story in gaming is like great OSTs, a luxury that's not essential. Some of the greatest games I've played had minimal to nonexistent plots, and didn't suffer from it one iota, but OTOH, I've played some with "complex" stories that did suffer, case and point, the ME "trilogy", with it's Ed Wood level schlock writing with things like Lazarus, Space Terminator, starchild, reaper motivation and Cerberus Sith Empire.

 

Essential or no, the medium would be less fun without it.