26 réponses à ce sujet

[Absafraginlootly]

I personally don't like alignment systems in games, I don't like dnds LG/G/CG/LN/N/CN/LE/E/CE, and I don't like paragon/renegade in mass effect.

 

An awful lot of the decisions about what alignment something is end up being purely arbitrary and pigeon holing you down certain paths. Instead of letting you decide what your character would do based on their beliefs/values/attitudes.

 

I don't know how other people feel about this but I would very much like for MEA to not have any kind of alignment system giving you points for picking one thing or the other. If they need someway of calculating how future people treat based on your reputation for kindness/assholery they can make it a hidden mechanic.

[In Exile]

While I agree that morality meters are outdated, the P/R system is pretty emblematic of ME. It'd be like doing an SW game without a darkside/lightside divide. Even KoTOR 2, which was aimed to be a deconstruction, didn't get rid of the two (though it did advocate for not going to either extreme).

[Dr. Rush]

Yeah, the Paragon/Renegade morality system in the ME trilogy was terrible. It hindered, not promoted roleplaying. It definitely needs to be scrapped or completely rebuilt. 

[Otter-under-the-mountain]

I don't disagree, but I'd take P/R over a straight karma meter like KoTOR or even a two dimensional one like DnD any day. If nothing else, I prefer it for keeping track of them separately, so taking the odd renegade choice when you want won't screw over a paragon player (or the other way 'round).

 

In DnD-based games, you can't even murder one non-hostile civilian as a paladin without losing your holy powers forever.

[saladinbob]

Gotta agree, the world isn't so black and white. Consequences for your actions is a far better way of determining your dialogue choices. By having consequences you also allow for more endings, or at least, more interesting endings and by extension, replay value. The way you act should determine the way people respond to you in future (and in passing). Take a belligerent stance and you might make it easier to achieve your mission but people will be less inclined to help you in the future. Being diplomatic won't make the game any easier but will lead to alternative dialogue trees. It's a butterfly affect. 

[Draining Dragon]

I'd like to see Paragon and Renegade continue, but maybe some tweaks are in order.

[Malanek]

I would throw it out. You should still have morality in a game, but don't subjectively judge it in a score for each decision. And you should never nudge a player to select an option because doing so will result in a statistical morality bonus.

[Rannik]

Whatever system they'll have in place is probably decided already.

[Valkyrja]

Drop it.

 

A binary morality meter feels dated and simplistic, choices don't always fit within its confines, and while they significantly improved how Renegade was written in ME3 the well was still poisoned from how terribly it was often handled in the first two games.

 

They could still write the scenarios to be similar to what Paragon and Renegade were supposed to be with idealism vs. pragmatism and expediency (hopefully they would make the outcomes more balanced this time).

[X Equestris]

There are definitely some tweaks in order if they stick with it. ME3 was better, but the first two games almost punish you if you aren't far enough to one side or the other.

[saladinbob]

There are definitely some tweaks in order if they stick with it. ME3 was better, but the first two games almost punish you if you aren't far enough to one side or the other.

 

Every situation felt contrived as a result of it. No one goes through life making decisions because it has an effect on their morality indicator, they make decisions based upon likely outcomes and the consequences of those decisions. Similarly in the game, a player should have to weigh up the potential consequences of their dialogue choices before making them and have the consequences of your decision have an impact on the wider game.

[Golden_Persona]

Every situation felt contrived as a result of it. No one goes through life making decisions because it has an effect on their morality indicator, they make decisions based upon likely outcomes and the consequences of those decisions. Similarly in the game, a player should have to weigh up the potential consequences of their dialogue choices before making them and have the consequences of your decision have an impact on the wider game.

To be fair, that IS how I play ME. I make choices depending on the situation regardless of alignment. The only thing is that obviously highlighted choices make the grey choices pointless, even if the dialogue trees are just as interesting with them.

 

I say go the ME3 route where it all fills into one reputation bar.

[MGW7]

Having an outside opinion to base your actions on are something I want.

 

If I act like a d**k common people I meet should be much more cautious of me, giving me a reason to reform and move back towards the middle, while being too good should arouse suspicion and the distrust of the less legally inclined.

 

A morality system that effects how you are viewed by others, and has dynamic effects across all possible styles of play can make the game more engaging, as long as it doesn't take away decisions from you.

[AlexiaRevan]

Paragon/Renegade is a morality bar now ? I always saw it more like you take actions and you didn't have to if you didn't like it . 

 

I do agree and hope the dialogue wheel is as wider as DAI but I also hope This Time around there more emotions in said dialogue choice and a difference between them . 

[Heimdall]

While I agree that morality meters are outdated, the P/R system is pretty emblematic of ME. It'd be like doing an SW game without a darkside/lightside divide. Even KoTOR 2, which was aimed to be a deconstruction, didn't get rid of the two (though it did advocate for not going to either extreme).

The difference is that the light side and dark side are real "tangible" things that exist in the SW universe. R/P is just a pair of nebulous concepts the writers themselves seem hard pressed to nail down at times.

[shinyfirefly]

I wouldn't mind getting rid of the morality meter as long as we still have access to interrupts. I love the interrupt mechanic.

[LPPrince]

I liked paragon and renegade, but I do think there's a benefit to not knowing what options have a certain alignment.

 

Still, paragon and renegade is very integrated into Mass Effect, so I'm not sure if they'd do away with them.

[Mundus6]

Yeah, the Paragon/Renegade morality system in the ME trilogy was terrible. It hindered, not promoted roleplaying. It definitely needs to be scrapped or completely rebuilt. 

It was bad in 1 and 2 since you where basically forced to play 100% paragon or 100% renegade (technically not in 1 if you had a lot of talents to spend). But in 3 they nailed it with the adding of reputation, it is a good thing to make it so that you cant always have the extra options unless you give something up for it. But if you either have to go 100% either way is no fun hence the reputation system is pretty good.

[x Raizer x]

I'd rather see a upgraded and improved Paragon/Renegade system, rather than just seeing it scrapped altogether.
Seems like it would be a step backwards if they scrapped it.

[Joseph Warrick]

Paragon and renegade is a staple mechanic of the mass effect franchise. Don't be like dragon age on this, be confident in the foundations of the series. It was never supposed to be good/bad, but more like righteous/practical, or paladin/rogue, or Luke/Han, or Ned Stark / Stannis Baratheon (book versions).

Logically extreme paragon players, in their signature simplistic, paladin-like self-righteousness, consider renegades to be stupid or plainly evil and advocate the end of the entire framework to have something they consider nuanced. But game designers and novel writers know better.

[x Raizer x]

Paragon and renegade is a staple mechanic of the mass effect franchise. Don't be like dragon age on this, be confident in the foundations of the series. It was never supposed to be good/bad, but more like righteous/practical, or paladin/rogue, or Luke/Han, or Ned Stark / Stannis Baratheon (book versions).

Logically extreme paragon players, in their signature simplistic, paladin-like self-righteousness, consider renegades to be stupid or plainly evil and advocate the end of the entire framework to have something they consider nuanced. But game designers and novel writers know better.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself!  I agree with you 100%!
That is the amazing part of the Paragon/Renegade system, its a lot more in-depth than most people would immediately realize.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

No way, Renegade is one of my favorite things about Mass Effect. Not many games allow you to be a practical badass without being evil.

[PhroXenGold]

I certainly wouldn't want the option to behave in a "paragon" or "renegade" manner to be removed, and I don't mind there being a system which tracks how you're behaving, and thus how people will react to you, but I really hope the system as it was in the previous games gets overhauled at the very least. It really annoyed me in ME that a bunch of stuff is gated behind getting your P/R to the extremes (though dialogues with requirements of having your paragon or renegade meter high enough). Most real people aren't extremes, they're somewhere in the middle. Depending on the circumstances, they will sometimes take actions that would give Paragon points, and sometime Renegade ones. They'll likely lean towards one side, but not anywhere near close to the kind of all out "perfect good guy" vs. "ruthless dickwad" that the previous games' mechanics overwhelmingly encouraged you to play. As an RPG, the game should, if anything, reward you for playing more nuanced, realistic, characters that make decisions based on the circumstances they find themselves in, not ridiculous extremists that make decisions based on what coulour points it'll give you.

[Absafraginlootly]

No way, Renegade is one of my favorite things about Mass Effect. Not many games allow you to be a practical badass without being evil.

 

Not suggesting they take away the sort of choices and actions we got, just that they don't feel the need to label our choices as one thing or another or assign points that encourage you to just keep choosing one label instead of making a choice based on the situation. 

[SolNebula]

But but I want my Red Star of Evil and those sweet Renegade Points....once I collect 100 of them I get a shotgun for free.