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[Paridave]

 

The functions of the Crucible were all ludicrous, but Synthesis being a matter of "organic essence" really took the cake.

Yeah, that was kind of like something you might expect from the man behind the curtain.

[Pasquale1234]

Yeah, I've made this argument several times, in multiple threads.
 
Hyper-advanced AI wouldn't neglect the opportunity to expand their operations.

Assuming that AI are, by definition, expansive. That may be true of humans, since the more we have, the more we tend to want - and we're also driven by biological imperatives, which synthetics don't have.
 

..or are we saying that machines can become complacent?

I would expect a machine intelligence would continue to work on the problem it was assigned until it found a solution. How much it's capable of 'thinking outside the box' depends, I suppose, on its original programming plus any self-modifications it has made. We don't really know whether there was anything in its original programming that would encourage or inhibit it from looking to other galaxies.

[dreamgazer]

Call it suspicion based on past performance.

 

The Lazarus Project was "a matter of resources"

The entire logic behind thermal clips and how they are found everywhere, including places where they shouldn't exist.

The smoothifying process for the Reapers distilling "the essence of a species" (whatever the hell that is)

The Cipher defining what it means to be Prothean

The functions of the Crucible were all ludicrous, but Synthesis being a matter of "organic essence" really took the cake.

 

A sentient plant creating a mental brain filter through digested/absorbed perspectives.

 

The conduit's functionality after 50k years and on an orbital planet. 

 

It's pretty much in the series' DNA from the beginning. 

[In Exile]

Call it suspicion based on past performance.

 

The Lazarus Project was "a matter of resources"

The entire logic behind thermal clips and how they are found everywhere, including places where they shouldn't exist.

The smoothifying process for the Reapers distilling "the essence of a species" (whatever the hell that is)

The Cipher defining what it means to be Prothean

The functions of the Crucible were all ludicrous, but Synthesis being a matter of "organic essence" really took the cake.

 

Right, that was all nonsense. So why would new nonsense somehow be inconsistent with ME1-ME3?

[Spacepunk01]

Assuming that AI are, by definition, expansive. That may be true of humans, since the more we have, the more we tend to want - and we're also driven by biological imperatives, which synthetics don't have.
 

I would expect a machine intelligence would continue to work on the problem it was assigned until it found a solution. How much it's capable of 'thinking outside the box' depends, I suppose, on its original programming plus any self-modifications it has made. We don't really know whether there was anything in its original programming that would encourage or inhibit it from looking to other galaxies.

 

I believe that (strong) AGI is by definition expansive. Imagine a hyper-advanced machine with the ability to process staggering amounts of information in seconds, more information than you'll ever find in all the worlds libraries. With this kind of processing power the AI will inevitably expand its sphere of influence.

 

The Reapers weren't just hyper-advanced AI, they were sentient machines. We are doing AI research now, and computer systems has the ability to learn - and master tasks must faster, and more skillfully than any human. I don't think the original programming could limit the Reapers, because when a machine becomes sentient, it becomes independent. You would think the creators of the AI would make sure that it didn't turn on them, but that wasn't possible, because the Reapers were autonomous.

 

A non-sentient robot will carry out its mandate without any questions, and it will stick to the plan. A sentient machine has the ability to question its purpose, its existence, and what kind of strategy to adopt for a particular task. 

[dreamgazer]

Right, that was all nonsense. So why would new nonsense somehow be inconsistent with ME1-ME3?

 

It depends on the caliber of nonsense, but there's some wiggle room if you take the entire narrative into account.

 

I'm still hesitant that they'll be able to do so credibly, but I'm certainly open to the possibility and eager to see how they're planning on making it work. 

 

(The conversation becomes different if you denounce ME2 and ME3 while holding onto ME1 as the "one true" entry in the series without nonsense, which is .. uh, nonsense). 

[Iakus]

Right, that was all nonsense. So why would new nonsense somehow be inconsistent with ME1-ME3?

It wouldn't really.

 

But let's just say I'm well past my saturation point and would really really like to see some improvement.

[In Exile]

It depends on the caliber of nonsense, but there's some wiggle room if you take the entire narrative into account.

 

I'm still hesitant that they'll be able to do so credibly, but I'm certainly open to the possibility and eager to see how they're planning on making it work. 

 

(The conversation becomes different if you denounce ME2 and ME3 while holding onto ME1 as the "one true" entry in the series without nonsense, which is .. uh, nonsense). 

 

Even if it wasn't nonsense to denounce the other games, ME1 is filled with incomprehensible gibberish science. Trying to say that further gibberish would be inimical to the series seems silly to me. 

 

 

It wouldn't really.

 

But let's just say I'm well past my saturation point and would really really like to see some improvement.

 

Fair enough. I just never played ME for its coherent take on science or its own lore, which it basically unknowingly violates every few hours. 

[saladinbob]

Okay, first let me say as someone who despised the endings, both original and EC pretty much from the start, let me say I do welcome the idea of getting far, far away from them.  

 

However, I don't think fleeing to Andromeda is the answer.  In part because it's tacit admission that the endings messed up the galaxy so bad the situation is totally unsalvageable.  But mainly because, well, it's unreachable lore-wise.

 

The codex entry on drive charges states:

 

As positive or negative electric current is passed through an FTL drive core, it acquires a static electrical charge. Drives can be operated an average of 50 hours before they reach charge saturation. This changes proportionally to the magnitude of mass reduction; a heavier or faster ship reaches saturation more quickly.

If the charge is allowed to build, the core will discharge into the hull of a ship. All ungrounded crew members are fried to a crisp, all electronic system are burned out, and metal bulkheads may be melted and fused together.

The safest way to discharge a core is to land on a planet and establish a connection to the ground, like a lightning rod. Larger vessels like dreadnoughts cannot land and must discharge into a planetary magnetic field1.

As the hull discharges, sheets of lightning jump away into the field, creating beautiful auroral displays on the planet. The ship must retract its sensors and weapons while dumping charge to prevent damage, leaving it blind and helpless. Discharging at a moon with a weak magnetic field can take days. Discharging into the powerful field of a gas giant may require less than an hour. Deep space facilities such as the Citadel often have special discharge facilities for visiting ships.

 

So ships can't go more than a couple of days at FTL speeds without risking both ship and crew.  It would take over 500 years for such a ship to reach Andromeda.

 

But wait, you say, the Reapers don't have to discharge their cores!  Well, yes, but...

 

Reaper power sources seem to violate known physical laws. Reapers usually destroy fuel infrastructure rather than attempting to capture it intact, indicating that Reapers do not require organic species' energy supplies. Consequently, the Reapers attack without regard for maintaining supply lines behind them, except to move husks from one planet to another. Unlike Citadel ships, Reapers do not appear to discharge static buildup from their drive cores, although they sometimes appear wreathed in static discharge when they land on planets.

 

So it appears That they do build up a charge, they can just survive the buildup.  I'm not so sure the passengers would though.  And in any case, it would still take over two hundred years to reach Andromeda.

 

THe centuries it would take to transport hundreds, more likely thousands or even tens of thousands of people alive across the galaxy would also be enormous.  even in stasis, you'd need a power supply that will las that long.  SOmething even the Protheans seemed to have a hard time accomplishing (remember Ilos, and how many people Vigil had to triage until only a dozen remained)

 

So, thus my problem in the title.  How is this going to work.  Bioware has gotten into a very bad habit of handwaving away space magic to circumvent story problems.  Will this be another case of it?

 

It's why the entire premise is a cluster **** from start to finish. And people wonder why many of us have a problem with the new setting.

 

 

Wormhole?  Mass Relay?  Just please NO ark...  Make it believeable.   

 

A Mass Relay would suggest the Reapers have, or had a presence within the Andromeda Galaxy which means we're just rehashing the same old tripe again.

[Iakus]

 

Fair enough. I just never played ME for its coherent take on science or its own lore, which it basically unknowingly violates every few hours. 

 

I can be flexible with the science.  You have to be in a science fiction setting, after all.  But it still has to stay consistent with itself.  Even the violation of science should stay consistent with the lore we are presented.

[Pasquale1234]

I believe that (strong) AGI is by definition expansive. Imagine a hyper-advanced machine with the ability to process staggering amounts of information in seconds, more information than you'll ever find in all the worlds libraries. With this kind of processing power the AI will inevitably expand its sphere of influence.

A couple of things:
1) Just because it *can* process staggering amounts of information, doesn't necessarily mean that it will.
2) Even if it does reach a level of amazing knowledge from all of that processing, it might not do anything with it.

Example: With all the genetic data they've harvested, the reapers might be able to create clones, genetically perfect organisms, eradicate cancer or any other illness or disease - but why would they? They could seed planets with low level organisms to jump start the evolutionary process, but we see no signs of them ever doing that.

< I just snipped out some discussion about convoluted Leviathan AI / Catalyst / reaper logic, because it's a big can 'o worms and very off-topic>

I'm not questioning their ability, but their motives. The Leviathan tells us they made the entire galaxy an experiment. For all we know, the Catalyst / reapers consider TMW to be the entire universe, or at least the only part they care about. There is no indication that the Leviathan or any other past species had any knowledge of anything outside of TMW - so why would the reapers consider leaving TMW?

The bottom line, really, is whether the writers decide to build any reaper presence into Andromeda.

[Elhanan]

I nominate Ruby slippers....

[In Exile]

I can be flexible with the science. You have to be in a science fiction setting, after all. But it still has to stay consistent with itself. Even the violation of science should stay consistent with the lore we are presented.

But logically inconsistent psuedo-science which is essentially what we get with MEs science - already lost that battle. As best as possible people have to try and stay true to those founding ideas, but when the founding ideas don't add up it's hard to be consistent.

[Drone223]

I might have an easier time of going to another galaxy if intergalactic travel was developed after the war since it would fit with the aesthetics from the trailer. If it happened during or before the war then its just going to be contrived and poorly implemented because the whole concept of developing intergalactic travel in 2-3 years is just ridiculous.

[In Exile]

I might have an easier time of going to another galaxy if intergalactic travel was developed after the war since it would fit with the aesthetics from the trailer. If it happened during or before the war then its just going to be contrived and poorly implemented because the whole concept of developing intergalactic travel in 2-3 years is just ridiculous.

Why do people keep assuming we'd invent the tech? It's not like interstellar travel was something the ME races invented. Even their FTL is basically reaper tech.

[Paridave]

It wouldn't really.

 

But let's just say I'm well past my saturation point and would really really like to see some improvement.

Honestly, I believe Bioware bit off more than it could chew with the Trilogy and as a result they got a slap in the face from their fans, they got a kick in the nuts...a really, really hard kick. They got an ultimatum, improve or die.  As a result we got DAI which, while there are some aspects of the game I don't like, is a big improvement over DA II.  With ME:A you're going to see they have learned most of their lessons.  This doesn't mean you're going to sit there with a tear in your eye at the end, which is not what they want.  I suspect what they are aiming for with ME:A is for you to sit back and say "Damn, that was a good game."  People need to understand that the Trilogy is water over the damn... it ain't every coming back and the problems we have with it ain't ever gonna be fixed.

[saladinbob]

I might have an easier time of going to another galaxy if intergalactic travel was developed after the war since it would fit with the aesthetics from the trailer. If it happened during or before the war then its just going to be contrived and poorly implemented because the whole concept of developing intergalactic travel in 2-3 years is just ridiculous.

 

That would require recognition of those endings which to the best of my knowledge, Bioware has already ruled out.

[Drone223]

Why do people keep assuming we'd invent the tech? It's not like interstellar travel was something the ME races invented. Even their FTL is basically reaper tech.

It'll be very contrived if the reapers weren't able to invite intergalactic travel within the billions of years of their existence and yet the people of this cycle were able to do it in 2-3 years. If the reaper's weren't able to come up with a means of intergalactic travel then neither should this cycle. Not to mention their mandate is to preserve all life and is not specific to the MW so it would be in their interest to develop intergalactic travel and carry out their work in other galaxies.

[Iakus]

But logically inconsistent psuedo-science which is essentially what we get with MEs science - already lost that battle. As best as possible people have to try and stay true to those founding ideas, but when the founding ideas don't add up it's hard to be consistent.

Then say I'm challenging Mass Effect to be better going forward.  To actually look at their lore or bible or whatever they call their background documents and try to be consistent with it going forward.

 

Otherwise what's the point of calling it "Mass Effect" when the universe keeps changing from game to game?  

 

I mean, sure Final Fantasy's been doing it, but it's playing hell with their numbering system 

[Jester]

It'll be very contrived if the reapers weren't able to invite intergalactic travel within the billions of years of their existence and yet the people of this cycle were able to do it in 2-3 years. If the reaper's weren't able to come up with a means of intergalactic travel then neither should this cycle. Not to mention their mandate is to preserve all life and is not specific to the MW so it would be in their interest to develop intergalactic travel and carry out their work in other galaxies.

It may very well have been "preserve all life in this galaxy". We don't know how exactly Leviathan programmed them. 

If they would expand to Andromeda, why not to other galaxies as well? 

For reasonable work, they need some boundaries of work. It's basic design.

 

Otherwise they would attempt to spread everywhere, which would make no sense for their constructors.

Leviathan wasn't interested in Andromeda. They wanted alive, subjugated races in Milky Way. And that's why they created the Reaper intelligence.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It may very well have been "preserve all life in this galaxy". We don't know how exactly Leviathan programmed them. 

If they would expand to Andromeda, why not to other galaxies as well? 

For reasonable work, they need some boundaries of work. It's basic design.

 

Otherwise they would attempt to spread everywhere, which would make no sense for their constructors.

Leviathan wasn't interested in Andromeda. They wanted alive, subjugated races in Milky Way. And that's why they created the Reaper intelligence.

Yes we do. Leviathan says they programmed to Intelligence to "preserve life at any cost".

The Leviathan's didn't even exclude themselves from that parameter, so why would they for other galaxies?

 

Where is it stated that the Leviathans weren't interested in expanding to other galaxies? 

[Gwydden]

If the reaper's weren't able to come up with a means of intergalactic travel then neither should this cycle.

Oh, sweet mother of... They weren't. The Reapers never came up with anything. The technology they have? They took it from the Leviathans, or from some of the other cycles. It's noted in the codex technology is one of the things they bother to salvage. They don't make anything themselves. They don't experience progress. If they did, they would already be a Type III and Shepard and co would be screwed.

 

It'll be very contrived if the reapers weren't able to invite intergalactic travel within the billions of years of their existence and yet the people of this cycle were able to do it in 2-3 years.

Why only 2-3 years? The Reapers are the worst kept secret ever. Do you realize how many people knew about them even before the events of ME1? Jack Harper, Liara, Tali, that volus millionnaire; basically, everyone who was open minded enough and had a reasonable knowledge about either archeology or folklore (remember the ME1 codex?).

 

Not to mention their mandate is to preserve all life and is not specific to the MW so it would be in their interest to develop intergalactic travel and carry out their work in other galaxies.

How do you know it's not specific to the Milky Way?

 

It would be incredibly stupid of the Reapers to leave the controlled environment and closed system that is the Milky Way for the big dark unknown. For one, the universe is huge. They would never be able to police it in its entirety, especially since they're stagnant as hell. But that's actually irrelevant, since they're most definitely not the biggest fish in the sea. If they go to every galaxy out there they will eventually be squashed like the bugs they are by someone bigger and badder.

 

At least organics are desperate. The Reapers are comfortably sitting in a galaxy they are able to control only because the game is rigged in their favor.

[GnusmasTHX]

It'll be very contrived if the reapers weren't able to invite intergalactic travel within the billions of years of their existence and yet the people of this cycle were able to do it in 2-3 years. If the reaper's weren't able to come up with a means of intergalactic travel then neither should this cycle. Not to mention their mandate is to preserve all life and is not specific to the MW so it would be in their interest to develop intergalactic travel and carry out their work in other galaxies.

 

Not really. All it takes is a chance. The Reaper's rely on organics to follow a specific technological path, all it takes is one outlier, one random chance of a guy saying, "this mass effect stuff is shady" and pursuing other avenues of advancement for a new, alternative FTL method to be found. The Reaper's never did everything "the best way", they did it their way, and were very narrow in that regard.

 

Alternatively, the Crucible, what it is and how its found are also contrivances in the story. If a million year old weapon can be found, built and utilized within a year to defeat the Reapers, I wouldn't put it past BW to say a ship/engine could too.

 

It may be contrived, but the entire point of Mass Effect 2 was that Shepard became "The Last Boss" for the Reaper's and was somehow very special, so...

[Gwydden]

Why do people keep assuming we'd invent the tech? It's not like interstellar travel was something the ME races invented. Even their FTL is basically reaper tech.

Leviathan tech. Important distinction.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Oh, sweet mother of... They weren't. The Reapers never came up with anything. The technology they have? They took it from the Leviathans, or from some of the other cycles. It's noted in the codex technology is one of the things they bother to salvage. They don't make anything themselves. They don't experience progress. If they did, they would already be a Type III and Shepard and co would be screwed.

Not true. The Reapers developed and constructed the Citadel and the Mass Relays. Sovereign and Leviathan tell us this.