583 réponses à ce sujet

[ElitePinecone]

Simple. The entire fleet travels together to maximize the efficiency of the harvests. Thus the entire fleet was in the Milky Way and thus won't show up again. 

 

It's not simple at all. Where does the harvest stop?

 

If we accept the suggestion made in this thread that the Reapers' mandate extends to all organic life, everywhere, and not just in the MW, they must keep spreading to every new galaxy that they can. Chaos exists in every galaxy, remember?

 

You can't just put in an arbitrary boundary like "oh well they only go to the ones in our local cluster", since people are already rejecting the much more sensible idea that the Reapers don't venture beyond the Milky Way. Why would there be an arbitrary limit like that, if you're insisting on the mandate applying universally?

 

Eventually the cumulative travel time between all those galaxies is going to be larger than 50,000 years, and they are going to need more fleets. 

 

It is far more likely that what was presented in the games was true, and the Reapers only harvest the Milky Way. They hibernate for 50,000 years between cycles, and they've never been to another galaxy because their programming only makes them interested in this one.

[ElitePinecone]

There's always the possibility that the Reapers harvest only the galaxies in the local galactic group since they haven't advanced enough to travel from one galactic group to the next yet. Travelling between galactic groups is exponentially harder than travelling between galaxies, just like travelling between galaxies is exponentially harder than travelling between stars. Thus all the Reapers, minus the napping vanguards, are accounted for. 

 

Nope, not gonna work. 

 

You keep saying they had a billion years to travel - well, Reaper FTL travel is basically infinite. They could've colonised the entire universe by now, since (funnily enough) Reaper FTL speeds are much faster - eleven thousand times faster - than the speed of light and the universe is only about 14 billion years old.

 

If the Reapers really were interested in preserving all life, everywhere, and had no limitations on that programming, distance is not a barrier. It's not "exponentially harder" just because you're saying it is. Why is the distance between galactic clusters suddenly too long for a species of sentient machines that can cross between galaxies?

 

If what you and others are suggesting is true and the Reapers want to harvest life, in general, they should be in every galaxy in the universe by now.

 

So... have fun with the future of the series, I guess. 

[Iakus]

It's not simple at all. Where does the harvest stop?

 

If we accept the suggestion made in this thread that the Reapers' mandate extends to all organic life, everywhere, and not just in the MW, they must keep spreading to every new galaxy that they can. Chaos exists in every galaxy, remember?

 

You can't just put in an arbitrary boundary like "oh well they only go to the ones in our local cluster", since people are already rejecting the much more sensible idea that the Reapers don't venture beyond the Milky Way. Why would there be an arbitrary limit like that, if you're insisting on the mandate applying universally?

 

Eventually the cumulative travel time between all those galaxies is going to be larger than 50,000 years, and they are going to need more fleets. 

 

It is far more likely that what was presented in the games was true, and the Reapers only harvest the Milky Way. They hibernate for 50,000 years between cycles, and they've never been to another galaxy because their programming only makes them interested in this one.

Who's to say anything short of technological impasse would stop them?

 

The only reason we're concerned with the local cluster is because the next game is set in Andromeda.  But if the Reapers could go further, then yes, I believe they would in pursuit of their mandate.

 

Also, remember the harvests also add to the Reapers' number.  More harvests, more Reapers.  It doesn't have to be the same swarm of Reapers harvesting all the galaxies.  Each galaxy could have its own.  Each a nation, independent, free of all weakness 

[ElitePinecone]

It doesn't have to be the same swarm of Reapers harvesting all the galaxies.  Each galaxy could have its own.  Each a nation, independent, free of all weakness 

 

Yep, okay.

 

So... have fun when they all return to the Milky Way and slaughter everything a few centuries after the end of ME3 then, I guess.

[Iakus]

Yep, okay.

 

So... have fun when they all return to the Milky Way and slaughter everything a few centuries after the end of ME3 then, I guess.

Intergalactic travel being a possibility leads to this potential scenerio.

[AresKeith]

Why's that? Shepard and Co. not only saved the galaxy from the Reapers, they saved the universe. Sounds pretty sweet to me.

Until the other Reapers come in to finish the job

[ElitePinecone]

Intergalactic travel being a possibility leads to this potential scenerio.

 

Not if the Reapers are confined to the Milky Way. 

 

It's really simply just a combination of them having the technological means but not the intention or motivation, and the out-of-universe restrictions that the writers need to put on this scenario in order to make both ME3 and Andromeda work, plot-wise. 

 

Since Bioware will never write a scenario where the MW is doomed and ME3 is utterly invalidated because there are a billion other Reaper fleets out there, we have to assume that the ones we killed/controlled/synthesised in our galaxy were the only ones that existed. 

 

Either the Reapers' mandate was universal, or it wasn't. If it was universal, they'd be everywhere, and we'd be doomed. Since we're not doomed (because, remember, Bioware would never write that), their mandate is not universal. 

 

Either intergalactic travel is possible, or it's not. Since we're in Andromeda, intergalactic travel is possible.

 

Under those conditions, both ME3 and Andromeda can occur without contradictions. There was only one Reaper fleet, which repeatedly harvested the Milky Way for a billion years, and it was dealt with at the end of the third game. Using [whatever method], people from the Milky Way made their way to Andromeda for [reasons], and encounter a new story. The Reapers are never mentioned again.

[Iakus]

Not if the Reapers are confined to the Milky Way. 

 

It's really simply just a combination of them having the technological means but not the intention or motivation, and the out-of-universe restrictions that the writers need to put on this scenario in order to make both ME3 and Andromeda work, plot-wise. 

 

Since Bioware will never write a scenario where the MW is doomed and ME3 is utterly invalidated because there are a billion other Reaper fleets out there, we have to assume that the ones we killed/controlled/synthesised in our galaxy were the only ones that existed. 

 

Either the Reapers' mandate was universal, or it wasn't. If it was universal, they'd be everywhere, and we'd be doomed. Since we're not doomed (because, remember, Bioware would never write that), their mandate is not universal. 

 

Either intergalactic travel is possible, or it's not. Since we're in Andromeda, intergalactic travel is possible.

 

Under those conditions, both ME3 and Andromeda can occur without contradictions. There was only one Reaper fleet, which repeatedly harvested the Milky Way for a billion years, and it was dealt with at the end of the third game. Using [whatever method], people from the Milky Way made their way to Andromeda for [reasons], and encounter a new story. The Reapers are never mentioned again.

1) They smoothied their own creators.  They don't have a whole hell of a lot of restrictions.

 

2) It may very well be that it wasn't Bioware's intention to allow for this scenario, but it's pretty poor writing if they didn't consider it.  Of course, the Leviathans didn't think they'd be made into smoothies either, so there you go.

 

It's funny how you justify it with "Bioware would never write that" because that's exactly how I dismissed the rumors about ME3.

[dreamgazer]

It's funny how you justify it with "Bioware would never write that" because that's exactly how I dismissed the rumors about ME3.

To be fair, the same logic that applies to Elite's proposed writing situation also applies to both ME1 and ME3: BioWare will contrive a situation that allows for the plot to be played while overlooking some of the reasoning behind it.

I find "The Reapers didn't feel like it" to be a pretty limp justification of their total absence from Andromeda, but, really, the same can be said for the harebrained, indirect scheme cooked up by Saren and Sovereign.

[ElitePinecone]

1) They smoothied their own creators.  They don't have a whole hell of a lot of restrictions.

 

2) It may very well be that it wasn't Bioware's intention to allow for this scenario, but it's pretty poor writing if they didn't consider it.  Of course, the Leviathans didn't think they'd be made into smoothies either, so there you go.

 

It's funny how you justify it with "Bioware would never write that" because that's exactly how I dismissed the rumors about ME3.

 

The writing is going to do whatever it needs to do in order to make the old games and new games work together. Since we are in Andromeda, somehow, and I don't believe the Reapers will be, that points to them being limited to our galaxy. 

 

I'm just telling you, there is a scenario - however contrived you find it - in which we could travel to Andromeda via FTL, but the Reapers did not. It hinges on the Reapers' mandate and motivations being centered on their galaxy, and not the universe.

 

If a BW writer clarified tomorrow that when the Catalyst/Reapers/Leviathan were talking about "life" they meant "Milky Way life", I don't think it would be a retcon, because "Milky Way life" was probably what they meant all along. Literally nobody, as far as we know, was planning on setting a game in Andromeda when ME3 was being made, so they never would've foreseen the need to state that the Reapers' mandate didn't actually extend past the MW. Now that we are in Andromeda, it's a necessary ~re-interpretation~ of that part of the lore, so that they can move on and do something completely different. 

 

I don't think you're going to get an answer that would satisfy all the holes you can find, lore-wise, but sometimes that just happens. Games aren't written for the 0.0005% of fans that obsess about the lore as much as in this thread, and in many if not most of these cases people are thinking about it in far more detail than the writers - who have other, actual to work to do - ever would. Is that a problem? Should they be thinking about this stuff more? Maybe, but the workload of actually making a game seems significant. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I still don't think you see what I'm saying. With the numbers of a galactic group sized Reaper force that has been repeatedly creating new troops/Reapers there is no possible way to mount any defense at all. None at all because their numbers have been growing exponentially and go from being very large to being actually endless. I'm not saying that victory is achievable in a straight up fight because a McGuffin is required regardless to beat the fleet, but I mean with the knowledge that over a dozen galaxies (in just our galactic group) have been supplying the Reapers with new ships, troops, etc than that makes it silly that the only Reapers they left in orbit of Earth seemed to be maybe twenty or forty know what I mean?

 

2. But they didn't. Which is all that matters, when they invaded Earth there were DOZENS of them, but they didn't block out the sun or darken it or whatever, it was illustrative language for a finite (read: still impressively large) fleet that had completed the task of harvesting the galaxy multiple times before. 

 

 

 

True, but unless it's something that actually physically impeding them than it's just a matter of time and if their primary concern is time than boom right there a reason why they'd prefer to stay in the MW.

There is a limit to data that they could have running in a cutscene before the game freezes, so the fleets look smaller than they are. I'm sure we had more than the few dozen ships that were on our side there as well. Plus most of the Reaper fleet was across the galaxy, blocking travel to other systems. 

 

So because they haven't done it yet means they don't want to? By that logic, humanity didn't want to fly before we had hot air balloons and later planes and spaceships. People can want to do something, but at the moment are unable to. Same with all beings, even Reapers. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yet adds other issues. Even "temprorarily" dealt-with Reapers still leave them as the threat hanging all over the universe. We also have very convinient discovery of a relay to Andromeda. I say we've had enough of convinient discoveries in the series already, ME3 in particular. Reverse Engineering reaper core drive tech (like we did with their guns) is enough to get us to Andromeda combined with rest of the tech we already have. So why not go this way? The boring/hard way instead of convinient discovery of wormholes, relays to Andromeda or something else.

No matter what, the trip to Andromeda is going to be a Deus Ex Machina. Whether it is an undiscovered intergalactic Mass Relay, or a wormhole, or somehow solving all issues with our FTL, or suddenly having new technology. 

 

At the time of Mass Effect 3, Reaper drives made no sense to our top scientists, seeing them as breaking the laws of physics. It took them eleven months to reverse-engineer the Thanix guns, and that was technology they understood. The Reaper War lasts six months. It is impossible for them to crack the drives, design a schematic, construct the drive, make sure it works, install it into an ark ship, and use it in less than six months. 

[Spacepunk01]

Oh, sweet mother of... They weren't. The Reapers never came up with anything. The technology they have? They took it from the Leviathans, or from some of the other cycles. It's noted in the codex technology is one of the things they bother to salvage. They don't make anything themselves. They don't experience progress. If they did, they would already be a Type III and Shepard and co would be screwed.

 

How do you know it's not specific to the Milky Way?

 

It would be incredibly stupid of the Reapers to leave the controlled environment and closed system that is the Milky Way for the big dark unknown. 

 

You make an interesting point about the Reapers, and why they didn't build an actual civilization. They had potential to be a Type III civilization, but obviously they didn't have any intentions of doing that, first of all because it would invalidate everything they were trying to achieve.

 

The Leviathans didn't develope much space technology, but if they had the capability to solve this problem themselves, I guess they wouldn't have created an AI that would eventually grow beyond their control. The Reapers were sentient machines, meaning that they were also autonomous. The AI were constructed by the Leviathans, but the Reapers themselves invented the technology of the Mass Relays, the Citadel, and much more (let us agree on facts).

 

Why would it be stupid for the Reapers to explore Andromeda, which is the only thing we're talking about here, not the entire Universe? The Reapers were created by the most advanced civilization in the MWG. The Reapers themselves superseded the Leviathans as the most advanced "species" in the galaxy. There is very little that can actually challenge something that has the power and technology to control an entire galaxy. I believe anything that could challenge the Reapers would be very similar to the Reapers themselves: Synthetic, hyper-advanced machines, millions of years old.

[Avilan II]

The Leviathans didn't develope much space technology, but if they had the capability to solve this problem themselves, I guess they wouldn't have created an AI that would eventually grow beyond their control. You should know that the Reapers were sentient machines, meaning that they were also autonomous. The AI were constructed by the Leviathans, but the Reapers themselves invented the technology of the Mass Relays, as well as the Citadel (let us agree on facts). The Reapers were independent of their creators and were free to solve this problem to the best of their ability.

 

Nope.

When you play Leviathan you see that they do travel in Space. You and EDI talks about how they have to replenish their Eezo cores because they have been space jumping so much.

Also, when you are trapped in your mind talking to Leviathan, "he" points out that they were travelling the galaxy and enslaving new species everywhere.

 

Also, no the Reapers were not independent. They were slaves to the Catalyst, who was independent of his creators, but it is a fine point that has to be made. 

[DFMelancholine]

I am going with the  getting there "by accident" approach.

It means less explaining on the science of it.

Still it will need explaining but...

I predict it will be an accident.

[ElitePinecone]

No matter what, the trip to Andromeda is going to be a Deus Ex Machina. Whether it is an undiscovered intergalactic Mass Relay, or a wormhole, or somehow solving all issues with our FTL, or suddenly having new technology. 

 

At the time of Mass Effect 3, Reaper drives made no sense to our top scientists, seeing them as breaking the laws of physics. It took them eleven months to reverse-engineer the Thanix guns, and that was technology they understood. The Reaper War lasts six months. It is impossible for them to crack the drives, design a schematic, construct the drive, make sure it works, install it into an ark ship, and use it in less than six months. 

 

I think you're being a bit too confident in saying it's "impossible". At best, implausible.

 

There are precedents in the games for the Council races reverse-engineering Reaper technology though, and doing it in a relatively short amount of time. A Reaper engine in an ark is nowhere near a deus ex machina, because they've actually been telling us about re-purposing the technology for two whole games now.

 

I find it hard to believe that people who are fine with thanix cannons or black hole guns or whatever else was in ME2 are suddenly all up in arms about doing the same thing to an engine. If the story of the new game requires Reaper engines to get to Andromeda, that's what it'll do.

 

BW could (and probably will) just mention a reverse-engineering effort in one line of dialogue and that probably would be enough to satisfy the 99.999997% of players who aren't focused on reading every single word of the codex.... and this entire thread will be for nothing.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I think you're being a bit too confident in saying it's "impossible". At best, implausible.

 

There are precedents in the games for the Council races reverse-engineering Reaper technology though, and doing it in a relatively short amount of time. A Reaper engine in an ark is nowhere near a deus ex machina, because they've actually been telling us about re-purposing the technology for two whole games now.

 

I find it hard to believe that people who are fine with thanix cannons or black hole guns or whatever else was in ME2 are suddenly all up in arms about doing the same thing to an engine. If the story of the new game requires Reaper engines to get to Andromeda, that's what it'll do.

 

BW could (and probably will) just mention a reverse-engineering effort in one line of dialogue and that probably would be enough to satisfy the 99.999997% of players who aren't focused on reading every single word of the codex.... and this entire thread will be for nothing.

No, I'm perfectly justified in saying impossible since the lore has been established as such. If it's suddenly possible, it is a DEM and/or a retcon. 

 

The Thanix cannon took them 11 months from study to realization, and they understood how it works. Meanwhile in Mass Effect 3 the Codex says that the top scientists have no idea how a Reaper drive works, and they only have six months until the Crucible fires. There is not enough time. 

 

A gun is a lot simpler than a drive core. It's like comparing a rifle to a nuclear generator. As for the "black hole gun", who said I was fine with it? 

 

In the end, Bioware can do whatever they want. It's their universe. But we are allowed to call them out on it. 

[Spacepunk01]

Nope.

When you play Leviathan you see that they do travel in Space. You and EDI talks about how they have to replenish their Eezo cores because they have been space jumping so much.

Also, when you are trapped in your mind talking to Leviathan, "he" points out that they were travelling the galaxy and enslaving new species everywhere.

 

Also, no the Reapers were not independent. They were slaves to the Catalyst, who was independent of his creators, but it is a fine point that has to be made. 

 

The Reapers/Catalyst connection is implied whenever I talk about the Reapers as independent. The Reapers themselves are, as we know, each a nation, free and independent. The AI (catalyst) can be interpreted as the collective consciousness of the Reapers, but that doesn't mean the Reapers weren't themselves autonomous. We know that organized behaviour is possible, without excluding independent agency, or personal freedom.   

 

I stand corrected in regards to my comments about the Leviathans. However, if they were so advanced, why did they need an AI to solve their problem?

[ElitePinecone]

There is not enough time. 

 

Are you some sort of expert in the timescale required for projects relating to reverse-engineering mass effect cores in starships? 

[Avilan II]

I stand corrected in regards to my comments about the Leviathans. However, if they were so advanced, why did they need an AI to solve their problem?

..Because they built a tool to solve a problem, something that all advanced civilizations do? I don't see anything weird about it, really.'

As for the rest, I still feel it is an interesting point, because it seems...cruel. You create this massive AI mass consciousness, Hyper intelligent, Mega powerful. And yet having all seven tentacles tied behind it's back because it is forced to obey a badly programmed megalomaniac idiot.

[Ashevajak]

Like everything else in Mass Effect, the explanation is Space Magic.

[Avilan II]

Like everything else in Mass Effect, the explanation is Space Magic.

 

Like 90% of all Sci-Fi, the explanation is Space Magic concealed as Science!

 

The other 10% pure Space Magic.

[Han Shot First]

Reverse engineering Reaper tech might not even be necessary.

 

The dark space between galaxies isn't entirely dark. There are stars and remnants of stars, and presumably orbiting planets, that have been cast off by their parent galaxies and are floating through intergalactic space. Even if the Council species don't master the Reapers' ability to travel at FTL without refueling or discharging their drives, an ark might be able to travel to Andromeda by following a zig-zag course, using these rogue star systems as intergalactic rest stops.

 

It would lengthen the journey of course, but it might be a viable option if drive discharging and refueling is required.

[In Exile]

Biotics are totally just pure space magic.

[themikefest]

Another theory

 

Before the asari discovered the Citadel, they sent a ship to Andromeda to explore that galaxy. They had a ship filled with young asari who can survive the trip at ftl speed and also there were a few matriarch along for the ride. They finally arrive in the galaxy. They find a planet that seems habitable and appears not to be dangerous.

 

Over time they discover a lot of stuff that helps with medicine, technology and whatever else. They built a few colonies. Over this time meet a new species and some how learned to communicate with each other. This species was very far ahead of the asari when it came to technology. They were able to develop wormholes. They shared the information with the asari.

 

The asari used it to get back to the Milky Way. Soon more asari were moving to Andromeda.

 

The asari discover the Citadel and the turians and salarians joined. The asari invited salarian scientists to join them  in Andromeda along with the turians.  Before the rachni wars, Krogan were invited to colonize in Andromeda. Even the volus made residence in the Andromdea galaxy. These species were living well besides having a few disagreements here and there that were quickly solved.

 

Along come humans. Shortly before the events of ME1, human scientists and engineers were taken to Andromeda. 

 

Once the reaper invasion started, the asari with help, started sending supplies and people representing different species to Andromeda. Shortly before the attack on Chronos, the wormhole was closed leaving behind no trace that it ever existed.