41 réponses à ce sujet

[Frek]

First let me state that I have absolutely no complaints about the quality or game mechanics in ME2. From a game design perspective I give ME2 top marks. Please keep this in mind with regards to everything else I have to say.

From a story line perspective though I have to say I feel very disconnected from my character. This is not the Shepard I played in ME1. I can see that if I played a renegade Shepard that everything would make sense. A renegade Shepard would have no problems working for Cerebrus, if fact he would probably prefer it.

However, here's why I'm lost. I kept looking for a dialogue option to tell the "illusive man" what I really thought about Cerebrus but so far I never got one. My character knows about the murder of Admiral K and his men. My paragon Shepard would never just put this aside and "take orders" from Cerebrus.

As soon as I got aboard the new Normandy the first thing I did was to go talk to Joker. My character was looking for somebody he could trust to get answers from. Joker however offered next to no explanations as to the why and how of what was going on. One line did make a ton of sense to me though, my character told Joker "This isn't really the Normandy".

So the next thing I did was head for the Citidel. There I talked to Anderson. The council did reinstate me as a Spectre but then Anderson informs me that this was just a symbolic act. So my very confused Shepard headed back to the "Normandy" and thats where I stopped playing yesterday. I'm going to keep playing the game and see where this all goes but at this point I have to say from a story perspective that I really don't understand why my Shepard was never given an option to confront the illusive man with details that my Shepard knows about from ME1 (again if I was a renegade this wouldn't be a problem).

Speaking from my characters perspective, I'm not interested in Miranda or Jacob. To me these are agents of an organization that murders good people (like Admiral K) as well as conducts horrible experiements on people (both human and alien).

I can understand that the "intent" of the story is to railroad my Shepard into working for Cerebrus for the "greater good", but from the Paragon side, the story has really failed so far. Why was I never given the option to tell the Illusive man, Miranda, or Jacob what I really think about their organization? How come when Anderson comments to me about "who I work for" that I don't get to say "I don't work for Cerebrus". At this point I've never committed to doing anything for Cerebrus. (Maybe the story assumed that I would have done as Miranda says and headed for the place where I'm to recruit some doctor? This didn' t make sense so headed directly for the Citidel to try and talk to some people I know and trust)

Does anyone else who played a full Paragon feel like this? I'm almost thinking that I must have missed something somewhere. I really feel emotionally detached from my character. Don't misunderstand my comments. I'm not complaining that ME2 is so different from ME1, that's not my problem. It's that I just don't understand why my paragon Shepard would go along with what's happening without ever getting to confront or speak his mind. He certainly never acted this way in ME1. I certainly could have accepted the fact that it makes sense to work with Cerebrus in order to save the galaxy, but the story didn't go that way, nor did it allow me to say what my character wanted to.

Does anyone feel like this?

Modifié par Frek, 27 janvier 2010 - 02:38 .

[KainrycKarr]

I hear you, and i am waiting to tell TIM to kindly shove it.



But, from a story perspective...TIM gave you; your life. armor. weapons. crew. ship(which is controlled by a Cerberus AI).



Think about it. Besides your companions...TIM would put an end to you pretty quick if you didn't at least pretend to play nice.



I hope that puts it into better perspective.



And, I have found several dialogue choices that I can "argue" with TIM.

[Vertrucio]

Because you have larger concerns and this isn't some black and white world?



Illusive man practically hands Shepard a new ship, and gives him just one mandate, stop the attacks on the colonies. Try going through the citadel, and you'll be locked up in politics and interrogations trying to figure out of you are who you say you are, and don't even talk about trying to get a new ship capable of stealth when everyone in citadel space is still rebuilding from the first geth attack.



Your job is to stop the attacks, which are happening RIGHT NOW for your character.

[Starsydr]

Your Shepard wouldn't be in ME2 if it weren't for TIM. You owe him that much, at least.

[SonvarTheMighty]

Can't say that I have so far. In my mind it's a matter of owing Cerebrus whether you like it or not. Your character was killed by a group that has been abducting humans. While I may not like Cerebrus as a Paragon I can't help but take what they give me because of the state the Alliance and Council is in because of Saren's attack. Cerebrus is the only group able to provide the funds and means to accomplish it.

My character is not not entirely on a choke chain and I'm limited in my choices. While I can take their suggestions I don't have to do anything in the order they suggest or accomplish my goals by being ruthless. An early example for me was letting Veetor go into Tali's custody instead of letting Cerebrus interrogate him.

[packardbell]

The paragon options you can give to your options say you're not with or working with Cerberus, they are simply a means to get the job done since other people are so unwilling.

[xMister Vx]

You don't have much choice. Personally I feel very attached to my character, to the point where playing as another makes the game sort of hollow. So much of what I did is in the game.

About the Cerberus facilities you destroyed - well, what's done is done. Miranda says it was their military division which operated those. They were individual cells, and the game spends a lot of time describing why you should trust the part of Cerberus you're working with now. Both you and the illusive man know what you've done, and are still working together.

Besides, despite being Paragon, I agree that one needs to look at the bigger picture and weigh our choices rationally. I'd feel indebted to Cerberus - not to the point of becoming loyal to them, but respecting their support.



I loved the fact that I was reinstated as Spectre - worth saving the Council. Even that act means support, because by law my actions from that point on are officially recognised as "Council business" (unless proven otherwise).



Besides, there are many small encounters with secondary NPCs from ME1 (especially on Ilium), they make it all seem much more real. The one with Conrad Verner is just priceless.

[Frek]

You guys make some good points. I guess I will try to look at it like a means to an end, and that the council and the citadel aren't in a position to help me.



As I said though, the first part of the story seems to be missing certain elements. It makes complete sense that Shepard is going to be looking for answers from people he knows and trusts, like Joker and Anderson. It would have really helped if I could have at least asked some questions about stuff I know Cerebrus has done from ME1.



Maybe I'll start to get back into my character when I play again later today.

[VA1N]

There are a lot of dialogue choices where Shepard straight up tells TIM "I don't work for you", "I haven't done anything yet and you're already trying to give me orders", "I don't work for Cerberus", etc. etc. etc. They are everywhere. Whenever someone asks me about Cerberus one of the options is to say "I'm not Cerberus" so I'm not sure why you aren't getting those options. They are everywhere.



But I do believe everyone here when they say it's a means to an end. I'm curious to see how it will all play out.

[MICHELLE7]

I have to agree with the op...Shep doesn't feel the same. I think you do get the option to to tell how you really feel about Cerberus in the scene with whoever you saved on Viremire but it comes across a little weak especially if you choose paragon. I left that scene thinking that my old LI was acting more like Shepard than Shepard was concerning Cerberus. Kinda a little weird.

[Fhaileas]

MICHELLE7 wrote...

I have to agree with the op...Shep doesn't feel the same. I think you do get the option to to tell how you really feel about Cerberus in the scene with whoever you saved on Viremire but it comes across a little weak especially if you choose paragon. I left that scene thinking that my old LI was acting more like Shepard than Shepard was concerning Cerberus. Kinda a little weird.

That is EXACTLY how I felt!

[cerberus1701]

Look at where Shepard is though:

* The Council barely acknowledges him, giving him SPECTRE status back intended only to really be an honorific title with no power.

* They are still cowering with their heads in the sand about the Reapers, and, by extension The Collectors, so it is again, "Problem, Shepard? What problem?"

* TMI believes him...and believes in him. They poured almost unlimited funds into his resurrection.

* TMI poured virtually unlimited funds into recreating the Normandy. And not only recreating it, but putting it on par with any other warship in the galaxy.

If I were (Para) Shepard I wouldn't want to work with them, either but in their defense:

They went the extra mile, (Hell, the extra light year) while the Council still wants the Human to shut up, go away, and take all his "threat to the galaxy" talk somewhere else.

And, if I tell Cerberus to kiss my implanted backside? Nothing happens. I'm powerless. The galaxy falls.

I'm still very attatched to my Shep because I understand where he is and why. I, too, hope Para Shep tells TMI where to go, but that's not happening until disc 2 (if at all)

Think of it this way, wouldn't Para Shep swallow a bit of pride and maybe tarnish his sense of personal integrity a bit to save the galaxy? Wouldn't he put them before himself?

I think that's what he's doing here.

Modifié par cerberus1701, 27 janvier 2010 - 04:06 .

[Khagen]

Fhaileas wrote...

MICHELLE7 wrote...

I have to agree with the op...Shep doesn't feel the same. I think you do get the option to to tell how you really feel about Cerberus in the scene with whoever you saved on Viremire but it comes across a little weak especially if you choose paragon. I left that scene thinking that my old LI was acting more like Shepard than Shepard was concerning Cerberus. Kinda a little weird.

That is EXACTLY how I felt!

Yea I do too.  There are several places where you can say you don't work for Cerberus but it is weak.  He seems way to "ok" with working for them. 

[N7R C7]

I'm still in the beginning of the game but as a person who has literally never beat ME1 on Renegade and has always chose to be the nice person (like even back in KOTOR) I can't say i feel disconnected. For me Shepard is in a weird place, i tried to think about it from my perspective, yes Cerebus was bad in the past and yes the Paragon Shepard in ME1 would have never sided with them, but in ME2 things change . . . . you died, they brought you back and they are the only ones with the option open to save humanity really.



From the few paragon choices i've had to made it still feels like the nice Shepard I've always played as, just he can't have exactly what he wants becasue if he did there would be no story . . . he'd be unable to go after the collectors. And he wants those collectors bad lol

[SurfaceBeneath]

I'm not sure how you can be that far through the game and still think Cerberus is outright evil OP. I mean, the deeper you get in to the story, it seems to me the more you realize that Cerberus simply represents an ideal of humanity finding a place and thriving in the universe. Individuals within the organization go about that in ways that may not always be right, but the overall goal of Cerberus is very much something that even Paragon Shepard should be behind.



Also, you get plenty of chances to tell TIM off. That doesn't mean you still don't need him.

[SonvarTheMighty]

I can't agree with those who feel disconnected from Shepard. As a few other posters have said if Cerberus isn't helping him there is no story. Like it or not even a Paragon has to realize to save as many as possible he has to take their help. Otherwise, Shepard is there bickering at the council and alliance to do something when he knows they can't and to a degree won't.

[Nopasaran1936]

Does anyone else who played a full Paragon feel like this?

Yes, very much. My Shepard would have arrested every one of her new allies regardless of whether or not they were the "last hope for humanity". Cerberus is a terrorist organization, period, in Shepards's mind; the whole "the previous ones were just military" so far feels like an utter cop-out. It would be like working for Al-Qaida's "fund raising division" and justifying it by saying I don't personally blow up innocent civilians even though I take my directions directly from Osama bin-Laden (the Illusive Man directs the military branch of Cerberus as well, after all).

As for the Council giving my character the run-around and not believing my intel, how is that different from ME1?  The Paragon Shepard had the exact same problem before, and somehow managed to avoid working for terrorists. I'll keep playing because it's a good game and I'm holding out for a "plot turn" at some point that will justify it, but so far it's been very weak in giving me any real justification for supporting Cerberus rather than simply hijacking the Normandy-2 and turning it over to the Alliance.

[cerberus1701]

Nopasaran1936 wrote...

Does anyone else who played a full Paragon feel like this?

Yes, very much. My Shepard would have arrested every one of her new allies regardless of whether or not they were the "last hope for humanity". Cerberus is a terrorist organization, period, in Shepards's mind; the whole "the previous ones were just military" so far feels like an utter cop-out. It would be like working for Al-Qaida's "fund raising division" and justifying it by saying I don't personally blow up innocent civilians even though I take my directions directly from Osama bin-Laden (the Illusive Man directs the military branch of Cerberus as well, after all).

TMI is NOT comperable to Osama.


As for the Council giving my character the run-around and not believing my intel, how is that different from ME1?  The Paragon Shepard had the exact same problem before, and somehow managed to avoid working for terrorists. I'll keep playing because it's a good game and I'm holding out for a "plot turn" at some point that will justify it, but so far it's been very weak in giving me any real justification for supporting Cerberus rather than simply hijacking the Normandy-2 and turning it over to the Alliance.

Shepard in ME1 also had the support of the Alliance. This time there's no one at his back BUT Cerberus.

Yes, arrest them all. Then, with no backing (financial or logistical) from anyone I get to watch Extranet lol catz all day until the galaxy falls. But hey, screw the lost and dead. I kept my sense of integrity intact. I can sleep at night, so it was all worth it.

Does that sound Paragon to you?

And finally, you think EDI's going to let herself be jacked and turned over to the alliance?

[quarthinos]

EDI says that Cerberus is cell based. Jack's loyalty quest certainly implies that some of the cells are more extremeist than others. The email you receive from TIM afterwards further bears this out, although he might just want you to think that.

I wish that you could further make your displeasure known to TIM at the start, but since what I picked and what Shep said are different, I've just internally editted the dialog giving him a much bigger piece of my mind.


And what the previous poster said.  It might have been a bit better to be able to spend the time discovering that the council doesn't want to talk to you and that the Alliance has better things to do, and then come back to TIM and ask to be part of the team, but that's quite a bit of extra dialog just for Paragons who have imported and done all the Cerberus missions in ME1 (or were on Akuze, but I'm not sure if you get to explore that without doing the Cerberus missions?)

Modifié par quarthinos, 27 janvier 2010 - 04:32 .

[Gilded Age]

Nopasaran1936 wrote...

Yes, very much. My Shepard would have arrested every one of her new allies regardless of whether or not they were the "last hope for humanity".

Reminds me of Miko Miyazaki from The Order of the Sticks comics: the Lawful Stupid alignment character meant to make fun of the "fanatical paladin" RPG stereotype.

Just out of curiosity, how are you going to save the galaxy with no: monetary backing, allies, ship, equipment or supplies?  The Council thinks you're delusional (an actual in-game quote) and the Alliance doesn't trust you.  Even if you showed up on their doorstep with a few Cerberus employees for an "arrest"...  There's no guarantee that they'd reinstate you within the military, let alone give you command of a ship with a full crew.   Anderson even says at one point that he thinks maybe Cerberus is manipulating you; I imagine the Alliance would be cautious about giving a ship and political/military backing to someone who was, literally, "brought back to life" by a terrorist organization.  I mean, how could they trust you?

I agree that this could have all been explained better in-game, though. 

Modifié par Gilded Age, 27 janvier 2010 - 05:38 .

[denrios]

Personally I just plain do not like this version. The emotional attachment to the characters is gone (along with other features from the first version). If i could return it and get my money back I would.

[cerberus1701]

Quote: Anyway, it's a big IF and, at best, you're stuck in no man's land for a while, powerless, as the Alliance tries to figure out what to do with you (and as the Collectors keep on raiding colonies and the Reapers get stronger).  STRATEGERY wins the day again, yes?

Not to some of these people. Their notion of a paragon is a notion of moral absolutes. The "right thing" must always be done, even if it costs billions of lives down the road. Even when you know that your action today will likely lead to that end. That's all that matters.

That Shep would put his own moral code on a tightrope for the greater good makes him somehow 'alien' to them.

When in fact it makes him a more realistic paragon than he ever was in ME,

[Gilded Age]

Oh, sorry -- cerberus1701. I edited my post to make my point a little more clearer.

I do agree with you, however -- 100%. Being Paragon, in my opinion, shouldn't just equal someone who adheres to the letter of the law, always, without any thought or consideration to future consequences, strategy, etc. People who did that, is what we always called, in my tabletop roleplaying groups, the Over Eager Paladin Syndrome, LOL.

Although, if people want to RP that way, it's totally their choice.  RP-ing a crazy, Knight Templar Paladin mix can be epic fun.

Modifié par Gilded Age, 27 janvier 2010 - 05:47 .

[khazadru]

As Wrex my old friend once told me..."the enemy of my enemy is my friend". In this Chapter, Shepard and Cerbus is a relationship born out of convenience. Shepard is desperate and needs backing. Council.. no, alliance .. no, so he really is limited to getting support from Cerbus for now. I've just started so I can't say for certain, but I would expect that if you play through this chapter, the final chapter (me3) may bring you the closure with Cerbus that you are looking for.

[djdsl]

I had a similar problem with the opening but for different reasons. My first play through in ME2 will be my renegade.

During the opening conversation with TIM I chose all of the "I don't work for you" and "you're not my friend" type-options. My Shephard doesn't take crap from anyone and doesn't take orders. After the end of that scene I am given +8(or so) paragon points? My Shep is a self-centered jerk and doesn't like people ordering him around, now he has to be the team player just because the team he's working for is the "Renegade" team?



I've only done the mission(s) on Omega...Anyone farther along know when/if I can start telling off people again without it seeming like I disapprove of Cerberus? I just hate anyone giving me orders. Those random paragon points I'm getting are way more frequent than in ME1. Seems like they went the route of being nice at all is a paragon thing even if it is, for example, to my old buddy Garrus.