206 réponses à ce sujet

[Nitrocuban]

Well, thermal clips are no ammo, so ...

[Enigmatick]

I'd like thermal clips to actually make sense, something like a limited resource insta gun-cooldown item

[Laughing_Man]

I think mass effect fields explain this. And by explain I mean possibly handwave.

 

I don't know what other advantages you'd really have with modern sized ammunition.

 

Mass Effect fields, aka space magic, can't explain everything.

 

Only warp ammo is a projectile charged with dark energy, the rest is just propelled through a a magnetic rail with a lowered mass.

 

If you can shoot a bigger round at the same speed, you get more kinetic energy. You can fill a modern sized round with explosives,

essentially make it a micro-grenade. You can shape it into a flechette-like penetrator and make it very effective against armor. (shaping a grain is much less effective)

 

Essentially, why *not* use actual ammo instead of all the handwaving involved in the current system?

[NuclearTech76]

So just to be clear, you're saying that ammo makes absolutely no difference unless you're in multiplayer, on the hardest difficulty, with a specific weapon, on a specific map? But then it informs your experience.

 

Well, I'm sold.

Yeah that's exactly what was said there ace. And yeah my in game experience just isn't too much, why don't you post your GT where we can bask in your awesomeness? 

[CrutchCricket]

Mass Effect fields, aka space magic, can't explain everything.

 

Only warp ammo is a projectile charged with dark energy, the rest is just propelled through a a magnetic rail with a lowered mass.

 

If you can shoot a bigger round at the same speed, you get more kinetic energy. You can fill a modern sized round with explosives,

essentially make it a micro-grenade. You can shape it into a flechette-like penetrator and make it very effective against armor. (shaping a grain is much less effective)

 

Essentially, why *not* use actual ammo instead of all the handwaving involved in the current system?

Explosive and AP ammo?

 

If a grain of sand shot out of a mass effect gun is faster and has more kinetic power than modern sized ammunition (I can't find this on the wiki but I believe it's stated thus ingame) then a modern sized bullet launched the same way would impact like a rocket. Assuming you don't also have to upscale the gun to generate the field required to propel it at the same rate and also have a way to deal with the increase in heat.

 

I could be wrong but intuitively it's not as efficient to go back to modern sized rounds when we can fire grains of sand with better results. And I'm not sure the level of firepower would even be practical in small arm encounters.

[CDR Aedan Cousland]

From a story standpoint, I think it'd make more sense and be a lot smarter to have the ammo-less guns, as they are in a new galaxy, presumably without much of a foothold in the beginning, and manufactured goods are going to be scarce and need to be rationed. Thermal clips are manufactured goods, so it'd be idiotic to rely on them, at least in the beginning. Maybe eventually add in optional ammo-consuming guns/modes after starting up a productive colony or something.

 

My kingdom to have ME1's entire combat system* back, though. (Why is my tech cooldown tied to my biotic cooldown and vice versa? They aren't even related! Why am I such a wimp now that I get tired after using just one biotic attack instead of being able to use every attack I know before having to wait a bit? Same with tech! How shoddy are omnitools these days? Oh, and don't even get me started on the ridiculous omniblades.) With the exception of a few really neat abilities in the succeeding games, I think ME1's combat system was the best, especially with all its freedoms, and I'm not really sure why they felt the need to change it. They could have kept things the way the are, all while adding the new abilities that aren't lame as hell. But then I guess people would whine about it being OP or some sh!t.

 

Edit: *D'oh!  It explains the response I got, anyway, lol. Very sorry, I should have just picked the aspects of combat I meant and put actual thought into it rather than just mindlessly pine for the whole combat system, which was quite flawed. I just enjoyed more aspects of it than I disliked, so I must not have had any of my own critiques in mind. Easy to forget when you haven't played in a while, and have only played a soldier (the worst class in the game IMO, or really the only crappy class) once.

[GnusmasTHX]

From a story standpoint, I think it'd make more sense and be a lot smarter to have the ammo-less guns, as they are in a new galaxy, presumably without much of a foothold in the beginning, and manufactured goods are going to be scarce and need to be rationed. Thermal clips are manufactured goods, so it'd be idiotic to rely on them, at least in the beginning. Maybe eventually add in optional ammo-consuming guns/modes after starting up a productive colony or something.

 

 

 

Mass Effect seems like the kind of sci-fi universe that is beyond "scarcity". I mean the Normandy itself, a war frigate, could locate and recover resources with ease. A ship made for the purposes of frontier colonization should be able to fabricate all necessary goods and then some.

[CDR Aedan Cousland]

Mass Effect seems like the kind of sci-fi universe that is beyond "scarcity". I mean the Normandy itself, a war frigate, could locate and recover resources with ease. A ship made for the purposes of frontier colonization should be able to fabricate all necessary goods and then some.

 

Maybe, but if it's designed for colonization, it would carry prefabs and building materials for factories and the like. Prior to setting those up on a planet, they likely won't be able to convert raw materials into manufactured goods, hence the initially limited resources. Unless the ship already carries fully functioning mini-factories itself, in which case what you say is true, though I don't think factories on ships is a common practice (if it's practiced at all). Space stations, maybe, but I've my doubts about ships. Even for some potentially massive enough to function as an ark, but especially for another separate ship for the PC which functions as a scouting ship for colonizing, I guess.

[Sylvius the Mad]

No, you're describing how to write a book. We're talking about a game, not a book. The correct order is first design encounters that are fun, then design rules to facilitate said fun, then use the lore to justify those rules.

(Now, whether they succeed at any of those steps is another issue, but they are in fact doing it in the correct order.)

That would make it almost impossible to design coherent lore, not to mention that it would prohibit changes to gameplay between games.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I'd rather just have good old fashioned bullets than supersonic microshavings that can burn up in air, overheat weapons, and have to use thermal clips. The damned shavings were slow at reaching targets, too. The Cain fired so slowly the target could dodge it - yet in the codex it was supposed to fire at 5 km/sec? It looked like 60 miles per hour. I also missed the Firestorm in ME3.

[Deebo305]

Why not have both Thermal clips and Overheat system? Something I always found ridiculous in the ME Universe is how only the Geth,Collectors, and Protheans have beam technology for small arms, why not everyone else?

Frankly that should be around along with FTL travel, so heres how I think it should go for ME:A

Beam Weaponry should overheat and cool down. Beam should either be continuous or launched in short burst. So they can be restricted to ARs, Pistols, Snipers and maybe Heavys if they come back.

Thermal Clip system should remain for other weapons and continue to function as they did previously but for weapons that fire Beam or Plasma they should not function for

To balance it, Beam weapons get advantage against unshielded organics and armored targets. Whereas Thermal clip weapons have advantages against Shield and Barrier with their consistent kinetic damage pounding away at it while doing moderate damage to unshielded organics and weak damage against armored targets

This would make people vary up which weapons they choose and more than likely make you decide on carry one of each type. This of course does not take into account the ammo override system(cyro,fire,warp, etc.) , I say scrap that system and put the focus on powers and weapon variety or keep it but strictly for the Soldier class who tend to lag behind the other power focused classes

Just my opinion on why and how it should stay

[saladinbob]

Because having the game be more frustrating is fun?

In ME2 they also used the ammo for balancibg purposes, limiting how much was available firefight by firefight by locking doors behind you (so you couldn't go back to collect ammo you'd left behind).

It felt cheap and artificial and gamey.

They should design the lore first, write rules to fit the lore, and then design the encounters within the rules. They're doing it backward.

 

It's no worse than Dragon Age law that established Qunari as powerfully built, greyish humanoids who suddenly grew dirty great horns in Dragon Age 2 and by Inquisition looked like some head shrinking Witch doctor had got their hands on them. Bioware has never been one to adhere to its own law.

[Emissary of the Collectors]

Well if you are a group of "settlers" exploring unknown territory with no way to resupply then having weapons with unlimited ammo seems like a no-brainer...i mean we cant expect there to be crates of thermal clips lying around on these alien worlds right...RIGHT???

[Sylvius the Mad]

It's no worse than Dragon Age law that established Qunari as powerfully built, greyish humanoids who suddenly grew dirty great horns in Dragon Age 2 and by Inquisition looked like some head shrinking Witch doctor had got their hands on them. Bioware has never been one to adhere to its own law.

That one game does something badly doesn't excuse other games that do the same thing.

[NuclearTech76]

Well if you are a group of "settlers" exploring unknown territory with no way to resupply then having weapons with unlimited ammo seems like a no-brainer...i mean we cant expect there to be crates of thermal clips lying around on these alien worlds right...RIGHT???

Entirely possible that a different space magic explaination will be used but reload style weapons will be in the game. The devs had a lot of debate about changing up the mechanics and incorporating reload canceling. Thats been there two gamed and it's not going back.

[SolNebula]

Hmm well if they don't want to erase termal clips altogether they could use a mixed system...where we have both type of weapons. Everyone would be happy. Maybe natives of Andromeda use advanced overheating weaponry while Milky way colonists the clips......just an idea to appease everyone.

[In Exile]

It's no worse than Dragon Age law that established Qunari as powerfully built, greyish humanoids who suddenly grew dirty great horns in Dragon Age 2 and by Inquisition looked like some head shrinking Witch doctor had got their hands on them. Bioware has never been one to adhere to its own law.

The Qunari did start with horns. And tails. It was DAOs engine and the way they handled armour that was the issue for them on that point. So still a redesign, but one more in line with their original vision.

[Sidney]

From a story standpoint, I think it'd make more sense and be a lot smarter to have the ammo-less guns, as they are in a new galaxy, presumably without much of a foothold in the beginning, and manufactured goods are going to be scarce and need to be rationed. Thermal clips are manufactured goods, so it'd be idiotic to rely on them, at least in the beginning. Maybe eventually add in optional ammo-consuming guns/modes after starting up a productive colony or something.
 
My kingdom to have ME1's entire combat system back, though. (Why is my tech cooldown tied to my biotic cooldown and vice versa? They aren't even related! Why am I such a wimp now that I get tired after using just one biotic attack instead of being able to use every attack I know before having to wait a bit? Same with tech! How shoddy are omnitools these days? Oh, and don't even get me started on the ridiculous omniblades.) With the exception of a few really neat abilities in the succeeding games, I think ME1's combat system was the best, especially with all its freedoms, and I'm not really sure why they felt the need to change it. They could have kept things the way the are, all while adding the new abilities that aren't lame as hell. But then I guess people would whine about it being OP or some sh!t.

Because it was quite frankly the worst combat system in any game I've played in years? What about it was good?

1. Gun controls were awful, stuck between a shooter and an RPG the cone of uncertainty was idiotic. You were neither in control of shooting a la ME2 nor purely point n click like DA.
2. Grenades......hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
3. Controls were total cluster flock. Non-standard and not in an innovating way but just broken.
4. AI that was worse than any I can think of in years. Your squad mates were useless and enemies used the run at your in a straight line and then circle strafe system.
5. Limited Inventory utility. While there were a crap ton of guns once you had access to SPECTRE weapons none of them matters because those were the best in every category.
6. Terrible balance. Early game overheating was stupid common by the end you could mash the trigger and shoot forever so the one "thinking" (and I use that term insanely loosely) part of combat was no longer relevant. My end game you were face rolling anything and everything at the citadel and then only issue was micromanaging you idiot companions.

No, ME1s combat can burn in the fires of hades where it belongs.

[Mike Shepard]

I think they added them for combat mechanics though, just to have another thing to think/worry about. But yeah the lore reasons didn't really sync. Was it at all explained at some point? I remember Shepard and Conrad talking about it in Mass Effect 3. 

 

 

The explanation was in the Codex. But the short version is that after the Battle of the Citadel they examined the Geth weaponry. The geth were already using Thermal clips, and the tests they ran found that the use of these "thermal clips" eliminated the need to wait for the weapon to cooldown, meaning long firefights weren't broken up by waiting for a gun to cool off as it beeped. Also something about them hitting harder because the removal of the cooling technology allowed them to find ways to make guns pack more of a punch.

 

On a side note, what I always found strange was Shepard's knowledge of Thermal Clips existing moments after he/she woke up after two years of being out of action. They pick up the M-3 Predator Pistol from the locker and their first words are "This pistol doesn't have a Thermal Clip." (as opposed to "This pistol won't fire for some reason.") When they died weapons still utilized onboard cooling tech. When they wake up on Lazarus Station they know what thermal clips are.

[Mike Shepard]

Agreed I don't get this sudden love for the lame overheating system of ME1

I would love a remastered ME1 with ME2-ME3 type of gameplay

 

If they remastered the games, which they've acknowledged they may do, they won't be changing the mechanics for ME1 to match ME2/3; that would be changing the entire game, as opposed to merely improving the visuals for a Xbox One/Playstation 4 release

 

I would expect them to follow the Halo: The Master Chief Collection example. Each game retains its individual mechanics. No dual wielding in Halo: Combat Evolved, for instance.

[FKA_Servo]

Agreed I don't get this sudden love for the lame overheating system of ME1

I would love a remastered ME1 with ME2-ME3 type of gameplay

 

If they remastered the games, which they've acknowledged they may do, they won't be changing the mechanics for ME1 to match ME2/3; that would be changing the entire game, as opposed to merely improving the visuals for a Xbox One/Playstation 4 release

 

Which is a shame, because this is just about the only thing that would make such a remaster worthwhile.

 

I'd like to say never say never, because this seems to be precisely how they're going about the FF7 remake (it's an *actual* remake). Unfortunately, I don't think ME (or most games) have so many people clamoring for such a remake.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Sylvias the Mad:  I'm actually a little surprised you don't like ammo... that's kinda a pnp staple concept.  

[pdusen]

That would make it almost impossible to design coherent lore, not to mention that it would prohibit changes to gameplay between games.

 

I have no idea how you can come to that conclusion, since the very thing you are arguing against (the change to ammo clips) is an example of how it allows for changes to gameplay.

[Pasquale1234]

The funny part with clips was that Shepard was the only one who could run out of ammo.

Yes, and in role-playing terms, didn't that make Shepard look foolish? Having to scavenge essential supplies during a mission made it look like Shepard should have flunked the mission preparation portion of N7 training.
 

If they'd let us play as a Krogan in the main story, it wouldn't matter what type of ammo they used because there is nothing that a hammer to the face or a butt to the head can't solve.

Except for those enemies Bioware likes to place in areas the player cannot access.
 

Funny you should mention ME2. That was the one time where the ammo thing affected me, and it was by far the most annoying.

There was never enough ammo for my sniper. Which made my infiltrator go from badass sniper to generic SMG drone with cloak. And the SMG never ran out. It wasn't tense, it just sucked. My sniper rifle wasn't meant to be a BFG. I had an actual BFG right next to it.

I also found that incredibly irritating. They really screwed up the balance for snipers in ME2 - they should have given them more capacity or reserve or something to make it possible to use a SR as your primary weapon.