206 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

Agreed I don't get this sudden love for the lame overheating system of ME1

 

It's not sudden. 

[Emissary of the Collectors]

ME1's combat was difficult early on but once you got better weaponry and a higher level those guns were so damn smooth and efficient 

[UKStory135]

Agreed I don't get this sudden love for the lame overheating system of ME1

I would love a remastered ME1 with ME2-ME3 type of gameplay

To be fair, the Adept in ME2 is not a lot of fun to play above normal difficulty since most biotics are useless against shielded targets and everything is shielded, so if someone rolled Adept only, I could understand complaints. The Vanguard in ME2 with both his charge and shotgun mechanics being different is also more challenging to play. I think ME2 > ME1, but I can see why others would disagree.

[trevelyan_shep]

I'd rather have the cool downs than having to worry about finding clips. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

I have no idea how you can come to that conclusion, since the very thing you are arguing against (the change to ammo clips) is an example of how it allows for changes to gameplay.

But that's not what ME did. ME2's introduction of the thermal clips broke the lore in a number of ways.

If they're going to ignore the previous game's lore with each new game, why do we bother ever learning it?

[pdusen]

But that's not what ME did. ME2's introduction of the thermal clips broke the lore in a number of ways.

If they're going to ignore the previous game's lore with each new game, why do we bother ever learning it?

 

You say "that's not what ME did" in response to my statement that Bioware added thermal clips as a gameplay improvement and adjusted the lore to accomodate... but then you go on to say that the introduction of thermal clips broke the lore. It kinda sounds like that's exactly what they did.

 

By the way, while I appreciate lore, it's not the thing that I play video games for. I play for fun gameplay and, in the case of Bioware games, fun character interactions. So I guess the answer to your question is... we don't have to?

[Sylvius the Mad]

@Sylvias the Mad: I'm actually a little surprised you don't like ammo... that's kinda a pnp staple concept.

There was a lore-based explanation, something fantasy games never seem to offer for the infinite arrows.

And in tabletop games, I'm not artificially limited to just the ammo found in this room. ME2's ammo would have bothered me a lot less if I'd been allowed to carry more (it was basically impossible to use a sniper rifle all the time), and if I'd been allowed to go back into orevious areas to collect what I'd left behind.

[CDR Aedan Cousland]

Because it was quite frankly the worst combat system in any game I've played in years? What about it was good?

1. Gun controls were awful, stuck between a shooter and an RPG the cone of uncertainty was idiotic. You were neither in control of shooting a la ME2 nor purely point n click like DA.
2. Grenades......hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
3. Controls were total cluster flock. Non-standard and not in an innovating way but just broken.
4. AI that was worse than any I can think of in years. Your squad mates were useless and enemies used the run at your in a straight line and then circle strafe system.
5. Limited Inventory utility. While there were a crap ton of guns once you had access to SPECTRE weapons none of them matters because those were the best in every category.
6. Terrible balance. Early game overheating was stupid common by the end you could mash the trigger and shoot forever so the one "thinking" (and I use that term insanely loosely) part of combat was no longer relevant. My end game you were face rolling anything and everything at the citadel and then only issue was micromanaging you idiot companions.

No, ME1s combat can burn in the fires of hades where it belongs.

 

I was referring to the skill system on the whole being better, not so much firefights. The infinite firing thing is just one fewer thing to annoy you in a fight, if you have good self control. And if your weapons were overheating constantly at lower levels, that's on you, not the game design. Those obnoxious sappers which made your weapons auto-overheat were a really shitty design decision, though. Glad they dropped enemies like that.

 

I did play as a soldier once, and it was atrocious and frustrating. But that doesn't make the combat system as a whole terrible. Any class with no offensive/controller abilities is not worth playing, especially in ME1. With the squadmates getting in the way constantly, you could rarely hit anything. It's an extremely boring class anyway, and not one that would separate Shepard from the mooks. I don't think someone with guns alone could have earned that Star of Terra on Elysium.

 

Also, I didn't see what was wrong with grenades. You threw them where you wanted them to go, and you chose when exactly you wanted them to detonate. Simple. I only ever used them for the Feros mission, though, as they weren't really necessary in any other situation.

 

Anyway, I was just saying it'd be logical to at least temporarily bring back the ammo-less guns (or they could just do what they did in ME3 by adding a few ammo-less guns if it's your preference), but nowhere did I say they should also bring back the really loose and unreliable shooting. I also said it'd be nice if they'd bring back the old skill system, being able to use each skill one right after the other. I never said they should bring back the whole combat system. If what I said sounded like that, then it's really not what I meant, and I apologize for any confusion.

 

ME was a new IP for them, so you can't expect it to be flawless. And since ME2 was them overcompensating for their mistakes and non-mistakes, its combat mechanics were absolute garbage. ME3's combat was much better, except it maintained the universal cooldown just for using one skill, and it implemented the really idiotic weapon weight system. I know individual skill usage gets to be OP with how streamlined the combat has become, so I wouldn't expect them to bring it back, as nice as it would be. I was pretty happy with ME3's combat anyway, minus the weapon weight BS.

 

I'm also glad ME3 made up for how slow and tank-like Shepard is in ME2 by making them way more agile (Shepard had much faster movement speed in ME1). I'm also glad Shepard's sprint was made infinite; sprinting for three seconds before running out of breath is really pathetic display from any military personnel, much less the savior of the galaxy. Too bad it's so silly-looking, though.

 

Still, as someone mentioned, it's really stupid how our squadmates have infinite ammo, yet we have to scrounge for it. Stupid and silly. I think a balance between thermal clips and the weapon-overheating might be a cool idea. I believe Sylvius mentioned something along the lines of popping in a thermal clip if your weapon overheats, but having the thermal clips be in shorter supply or something, so as not to encourage irresponsible firing. Something along the lines of that?

 

Really sorry for the mountain of text.

 

Edit: OMG I did say "the entire combat system." I swear that's not even what I meant. I should have put more thought into that statement. Really, I should have said, "My kingdom for half the combat system back," or something like that. That's so embarrassing, sorry! Really didn't mean every aspect, even the bad ones, just the skills and other convenient things. How silly of me.

[Sylvius the Mad]

You say "that's not what ME did" in response to my statement that Bioware added thermal clips as a gameplay improvement and adjusted the lore to accomodate... but then you go on to say that the introduction of thermal clips broke the lore. It kinda sounds like that's exactly what they did.

By the way, while I appreciate lore, it's not the thing that I play video games for. I play for fun gameplay and, in the case of Bioware games, fun character interactions. So I guess the answer to your question is... we don't have to?

I find your definition of gameplay incredibly limited. I would conversations and exploration and inventory management as gameplay, as well.

I've never particularly enjoyed combat for its own sake. And I absolutely don't want my physical skills ever to be relevant (I think that breaks the setting). I don't want to play a game at all; I want to play a character. Combat is merely one more opportunity to make character-based decisions. So thise choices all need to make sense from his perspective, and ME2's combat didn't even try to do that.

Adjusting the lore isn't acceptable. Any new explanationa they come up with for new gameplay needs to be consistent with all previous lore. And that's what I'm saying is impossible.

They can make up new lore, but they can't discard the old lore.

[ForgottenWarrior]

I more like having the freedom of choice between infinite ammo and consumable one.

[Ghost]

Do it like ME3 where you have options for both. I didn't like that there was no ammo in ME1 and all the guns basically played the same it was just a matter of how accurate/how long you fired them. It made the combat extremely repetitive. ME2 gave us way more interesting weapons and it was partly because of thermal clips. I don't understand how people are complaining about traveling across the battlefield for a long time picking up thermal clips, they drop from enemies and are in crates all over levels and to top it all off the game is like a corridor shooter.

[In Exile]

I find your definition of gameplay incredibly limited. I would conversations and exploration and inventory management as gameplay, as well.

 

In the past, I disagreed with you on this point. But I was clearly wrong. All of that must be gameplay. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Do it like ME3 where you have options for both. I didn't like that there was no ammo in ME1 and all the guns basically played the same it was just a matter of how accurate/how long you fired them. It made the combat extremely repetitive. ME2 gave us way more interesting weapons and it was partly because of thermal clips. I don't understand how people are complaining about traveling across the battlefield for a long time picking up thermal clips, they drop from enemies and are in crates all over levels and to top it all off the game is like a corridor shooter.

It being a corridor shooter is part of the problem - the designers have too much control over how much ammo was available to us (not enough to use a sniper rifle).

[Steelcan]

a lack of ammo totally broke some weapons, shotguns in particular

 

that said thermal clips haven't been a great system in replacement of that, but that just may be my background in shooters coming through

[Sidney]

I was referring to the skill system on the whole being better, not so much firefights. The infinite firing thing is just one fewer thing to annoy you in a fight, if you have good self control. And if your weapons were overheating constantly at lower levels, that's on you, not the game design. Those obnoxious sappers which made your weapons auto-overheat were a really shitty design decision, though. Glad they dropped enemies like that.
 
I did play as a soldier once, and it was atrocious and frustrating. But that doesn't make the combat system as a whole terrible. Any class with no offensive/controller abilities is not worth playing, especially in ME1. With the squadmates getting in the way constantly, you could rarely hit anything. It's an extremely boring class anyway, and not one that would separate Shepard from the mooks. I don't think someone with guns alone could have earned that Star of Terra on Elysium.
 
Also, I didn't see what was wrong with grenades. You threw them where you wanted them to go, and you chose when exactly you wanted them to detonate. Simple. I only ever used them for the Feros mission, though, as they weren't really necessary in any other situation.
 
Anyway, I was just saying it'd be logical to at least temporarily bring back the ammo-less guns (or they could just do what they did in ME3 by adding a few ammo-less guns if it's your preference), but nowhere did I say they should also bring back the really loose and unreliable shooting. I also said it'd be nice if they'd bring back the old skill system, being able to use each skill one right after the other. I never said they should bring back the whole combat system. If what I said sounded like that, then it's really not what I meant, and I apologize for any confusion.
 
ME was a new IP for them, so you can't expect it to be flawless. And since ME2 was them overcompensating for their mistakes and non-mistakes, its combat mechanics were absolute garbage. ME3's combat was much better, except it maintained the universal cooldown just for using one skill, and it implemented the really idiotic weapon weight system. I know individual skill usage gets to be OP with how streamlined the combat has become, so I wouldn't expect them to bring it back, as nice as it would be. I was pretty happy with ME3's combat anyway, minus the weapon weight BS.
 
I'm also glad ME3 made up for how slow and tank-like Shepard is in ME2 by making them way more agile (Shepard had much faster movement speed in ME1). I'm also glad Shepard's sprint was made infinite; sprinting for three seconds before running out of breath is really pathetic display from any military personnel, much less the savior of the galaxy. Too bad it's so silly-looking, though.
 
Still, as someone mentioned, it's really stupid how our squadmates have infinite ammo, yet we have to scrounge for it. Stupid and silly. I think a balance between thermal clips and the weapon-overheating might be a cool idea. I believe Sylvius mentioned something along the lines of popping in a thermal clip if your weapon overheats, but having the thermal clips be in shorter supply or something, so as not to encourage irresponsible firing. Something along the lines of that?
 
Really sorry for the mountain of text.
 
Edit: OMG I did say "the entire combat system." I swear that's not even what I meant. I should have put more thought into that statement. Really, I should have said, "My kingdom for half the combat system back," or something like that. That's so embarrassing, sorry! Really didn't mean every aspect, even the bad ones, just the skills and other convenient things. How silly of me.

If one doesn't mispeak on a forum one clearly isn't typing fast enough

Skill system and combat are different. I agree on the differential cool down aspect for sure. I assumed ME1 to ME2 they were trying to tone down powers by putting them on a single cool down even thought it felt like guns ruled the roost by the end of ME1 - I was shot gunning the crap out of everything and I'm not sure i used any vanguard powers on the citadel. Thing is by 3 with the ability to manipulate cool down via weight I was able to play as an adept and really rarely even shoot anything so I'm not wholly sure where combat was going through the series. Much like the DA series the ME series lacked any real sense of continuity in the actual game mechanics.

I'm also not a big fan of the development of ammo and grenade "powers". The special ammo types never made a lick spit of sense in ME1 either given the lore of what these rounds were (shaved metal hunks) so I'm not sure which is worse.

Really by ME3 I'd venture to say a lot of my favorite powers were built in the MP system and I hope they move that level of variation into the SP game because there were a lot of classes and powers in MP that I deeply wish I could play in SP - Fury for example.

[Sidney]

a lack of ammo totally broke some weapons, shotguns in particular
 
that said thermal clips haven't been a great system in replacement of that, but that just may be my background in shooters coming through

The whole heat mechanic -- clips or cool down makes basically no sense -- in any way so you can't think too hard on it. Frankly if this is set 200 years into the future then they can walk away from both explanations since the odds that weapon technology doesn't evolve for 200 years is slim to none and come up with some other lore based reason for things although in the end I suspect they will stick wi the "ammo" type effect.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The ME1 metal shavings with overheating system was really lame. Ditch it. Give us depleted uranium rounds.

[Silvair]

I'd only want to switch if there still remained a decent mechanic for heat control other than sitting there waiting.

It's called "burst fire" and "Weapon mods".

I'd adjust my sniper rifles with High Explosive Rounds and Large Calibur Rounds, so it could only fire one round before overheating, but it was like firing a nuke.

 

I'd set shotguns and snipers to one HUGE shot that overheats after, while Assault Rifles are modified to reduce heat for sustained fire, and Pistols as a happy medium with utility functions.

 

I liked how you could adjust your weapons in ME1 for different purposes.  Fit better with the lore, too, with literally everything being modular for the sake of practicality.

 

Like they should only have "base" guns that can be modified.  Like an Avenger can be modified into a Lancer or other similar guns, or giving more efficient heat sinks to allow for longer sustained fire like Revenant/Typhoon, etc. a Sniper can be modified into burst rounds like Viper, or anti material rounds like Widow, etc, etc.

 

 

You should just have a SINGLE gun of each type that you can then customize with modular parts, as per the lore.

 

 

 

 

On ammo, yeah, it was just stupid, made no sense, and killed a lot of the "sci fi" atmosphere.  I get they did it because they felt like reloading was an essential part of the shooter experience, but ME was supposed to be an RPG before a shooter, in the first place.

[FemShem]

I'd love to see any game without ammo!

[Silvair]

here like this is what I meant.  

 

 

That gun, the "anti material rifle" one?  Its modular, with the stocks, grips, barrels, and ammo clips being detachable so the base "gun body" can be modified between shotgun, bazooka, machine gun, sniper/anti material rifle, assault rifle, etc.  ME should go back to the ME1 style of weapon mods, but expand weapons so you could actually turn a Mattock into a Harrier, with modular pieces and customization like that.

 

Part of that modular customization could be how the heatsinks work, varying between overheating after single, powerful shots, in which case, can still use clips, or almost never overheating for sustained fire, where you can simply let it cool down.

This is what the lore originally implied was the case, and part of the Omni Tools original function, which was never implemented in game before.  Recycle materials into omni gel, then fabricate weapon mods.

[Larry-3]

What is the point of a lead block worth 1,000 rounds, if we still need to reload? So now we need to carry a lead block and heat sinks? Wow... I will just stick to my 2183 guns.

[rashie]

Because it was quite frankly the worst combat system in any game I've played in years? What about it was good?

1. Gun controls were awful, stuck between a shooter and an RPG the cone of uncertainty was idiotic. You were neither in control of shooting a la ME2 nor purely point n click like DA.
2. Grenades......hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
3. Controls were total cluster flock. Non-standard and not in an innovating way but just broken.
4. AI that was worse than any I can think of in years. Your squad mates were useless and enemies used the run at your in a straight line and then circle strafe system.
5. Limited Inventory utility. While there were a crap ton of guns once you had access to SPECTRE weapons none of them matters because those were the best in every category.
6. Terrible balance. Early game overheating was stupid common by the end you could mash the trigger and shoot forever so the one "thinking" (and I use that term insanely loosely) part of combat was no longer relevant. My end game you were face rolling anything and everything at the citadel and then only issue was micromanaging you idiot companions.

No, ME1s combat can burn in the fires of hades where it belongs.

Yeah, the only thing even remotely interesting about Me1 aside from narrative was there not being any ammo, the shooter mechanics were god awful and the heating mechanics didn't even matter later in, even on insanity, couple that with maxed out immunity and you could have a near 100% uptime on a 80% dmg reduction. >.>

[Ghost]

It being a corridor shooter is part of the problem - the designers have too much control over how much ammo was available to us (not enough to use a sniper rifle).

Even on the highest difficulty settings I always found ammo plentiful even without the upgrades from the Normandy.

[Para9on So1dier]

I say give us the choice in options menu to either use ME 2-3 style or ME1 style, best of both worlds.

[Nitrocuban]

Why not have a mod that converts every thermal clip gun into a cooldown gun?

To balance the mod could use blth mid slots at once, decrease rate of fire or increase weapon weight etc.