606 réponses à ce sujet

[XMissWooX]

In the absence of a relevant legal framework, whether you ever owned that house you built is a matter worthy of debate.
And the possibility further exists that there was a relevant legal framework of which you were unaware. If the crown owned the land initially, it was never yours.

Well in the example nobody owned the land. It was just a piece of land that nobody knew existed until you found it and had already started building. I know that example doesn't really make sense in the modern world where most of the Earth is mapped out and assigned to different authorities, but it was certainly plausible in historical times.

I suppose a more relevant example would be if, in 100 years time, we finally put humans on Pluto, only to discover that another species from a different solar system had already landed on and colonised Pluto thousands of years ago. Could we really tell them to leave because we perceive Pluto to be in 'our space'?

[Sylvius the Mad]

I suppose a more relevant example would be if, in 100 years time, we finally put humans on Pluto, only to discover that another species from a different solar system had already landed on and colonised Pluto thousands of years ago. Could we really tell them to leave because we perceive Pluto to be in 'our space'?

Examples like these really show how arbitrary and baseless most modern morality is.

[Former_Fiend]

Well in the example nobody owned the land. It was just a piece of land that nobody knew existed until you found it and had already started building. I know that example doesn't really make sense in the modern world where most of the Earth is mapped out and assigned to different authorities, but it was certainly plausible in historical times.

I suppose a more relevant example would be if, in 100 years time, we finally put humans on Pluto, only to discover that another species from a different solar system had already landed on and colonised Pluto thousands of years ago. Could we really tell them to leave because we perceive Pluto to be in 'our space'?

 

 

In the event that legitimately no one owns the planet, then yes, we're in the right settling there. The main point in my posts has been that just because a planet is uninhabited from our perspective, doesn't mean no one owns it. I'm just saying that it may be the proverbial deserted island from our perspective, but it's someone's vacations spot or someone's ancient holy ground that isn't meant to be disturbed, and we just emptied our waste onto it's surface.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In the event that legitimately no one owns the planet, then yes, we're in the right settling there. The main point in my posts has been that just because a planet is uninhabited from our perspective, doesn't mean no one owns it. I'm just saying that it may be the proverbial deserted island from our perspective, but it's someone's vacations spot or someone's ancient holy ground that isn't meant to be disturbed, and we just emptied our waste onto it's surface.

But the question is what constitutes ownership?

The question assumes that no one owned the land before you got there, but after you got there did you own the land? The government that sold the land to someone else might claim that you lack the authority to grant yourself ownership, and that only a government, or monarch, or deity can do such a thing.

And then what? What claim do you really have to the land on which you live?

[XMissWooX]

It also occurs to me that not all planets are fit for habitation by all species. Perhaps an agreement could be reached in which humans are allowed to colonise certain planets which have a habitable atmosphere for them, but not for the other species.
Assuming we even colonise at all. Humans might just assimilate into the existing government/culture and be considered immigrants.

[BioWareMod01]

Hi everyone. Please avoid political debates on the forums. Thank you.

[Altair_ShepardN7]

Hi everyone. Please avoid political debates on the forums. Thank you.

I was going to join the debate, but apparently I arrived a little late.

[Sartoz]

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Messier 31 also known as the Andromeda galaxy is literally Giganticus. Spitzer Space Telescope revealed that Andromeda contains one trillion (10¹²) stars.

 

Edited:  The Helius Cluster is quite massive in size and us poor humans running from a catastrophe in the Milky Way won't be even a small pimple in it. There is room for everyone and we won't be trying to settle/invade anyone else's home.

[RavenBlack]

Seriously, no matter who we fight in the game, aren´t we the foreign invaders? Even if we settle an empty planet and other races discover it later, don´t they have a bigger claim on the planet since well, we are not even from the same galaxy?

 

Bad guys? No! Invaders? Depends.

 

There's a faulty assumption at the root of this question which seems to be that we will go in and forcibly displace people or do harm to people or planets. Settling in an area doesn't make you an invader. Doing it aggressively (doing harm to those who where there before you so that you can be there now) does. Now if we were to come in force and be violent then sure, we're invaders but if we are exploring space and looking to make it a home, we are most definitely not invaders. If we meet hostiles along the way, that still doesn't make us invaders. The whole idea of any one group owning a region is frankly a huge problem in our world. The idea that areas are off limits because others were there before or because you were not is even more absurd. Using it when referencing an entire galaxy is silly. People get territorial and claim ownership when they have no right to be that way unless we are talking about your personal property (home, land, that sort of thing). But a continent or planet belongs to no one and the fact that they were there first is wholly irrelevant. Space is public domain. All have a right to be there. The idea should be 'live and let live' in a way that doesn't harm others not 'I was here first so you can never be here either'. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Sylvius the Mad:  You have fictional claim.  The same kind of fictional claim that invents nations... marriages... and religions.  Even science is a fictional claim.  The universe isn't "doing science" - science is a means of classifying the operations of the universe in a human fashion - that is all it is, and that was made up by humans and agreed upon by other humans.

 

Humans operate under fictional claim their entire lives. 

 

Thankfully, we're not automatons... so someone elses harmful fictional claim:  "X population is the source of all our problems, let's deal with them." can be countered by simply disagreeing.  Of course, a mass needs to be faced with an opposing mass... so then, conflicts.  The greater of which... gets to decide which fictional claim we'll be following for an unspecified time period.

 

The race is ultimately useless as fictional claims fight for control. 

 

===

 

That being said, were I present during a moment in time when indigenous peoples were being wiped out in the name of science (enlightenment) - I would have gladly died fighting alongside the people who were victims to an oppressor.  Not because it's right - but because it is my nature. 

 

Everyone dies... and I'd never want to die condoning such actions as were taken to make the civilizations we have present today.  Though I played no part, and therefore feel no personal guilt.  So I'd rather die knowing I did what my personal "fictional claims" demand.

 

The same will be for ME:A.

[Sion1138]

Not because it's right - but because it is my nature.

 

Good. Good.

[Master Warder Z_]

1. Genocide the Andromedans.
2. Blame the Krogan.
3. The Council reinstates the genophage.
4. You do this to Wrex for all eternity.

That works

[Han Shot First]

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Messier 31 also known as the Andromeda galaxy is literally Giganticus. Spitzer Space Telescope revealed that Andromeda contains one trillion (10¹²) stars.

 

Edited:  The Helius Cluster is quite massive in size and us poor humans running from a catastrophe in the Milky Way won't be even a small pimple in it. There is room for everyone and we won't be trying to settle/invade anyone else's home.

 

While the Helios cluster would indeed be vast and filled with countless stars and planets, how many of those planets would be ideal for colonization? Garden worlds may be exceedingly rare. 

 

Even though there is plenty there I could still see a scenario where the colonists and the locals are squabbling over a planet or two.

[Tenebrae]

Social morality is a false construct that has no true meaning, the only morality that matters is the one you build yourself not the one that may be imprinted on you by society, even more so when that society is our current one.

 

As for the primitives of Andromeda, there is but one creed to remember:

 

[dragonflight288]

Imagine you find an uninhabited, undiscovered and unclaimed bit of land. You decide to build a house there because its a nice spot and nobody else is around for you to disturb. You call together your friends and family members and you all spend a lot of time, effort and money on building a lovely house, which you live happily for a short time.

 

Then, one day a stranger comes to your house and tells you that he has recently purchased that bit of land from the local government, and now owns not only the land but everything on it, including your house. He wants you all to leave immediately so he can live in it instead.

 

That is not 'morally right', nor is it meritocratic, because the person who contributed precisely nothing to the development of the house is the one who gets to live in it.

 

This reminds me of a bit of a side quest from Jade Empire.

 

Old Mother Kwan built a Teahouse and had been running it for decades, then Creative Yukong appears out of nowhere with an Imperial Writ (that he forged) that says he and his family owns the land, and thus everything on it, and had for generations, thus stealing the Teahouse from Kwan and he intended to turn it into a Tavern.

 

The quest is proving that he forged the writ to steal the business, or allowing him to bribe you to look the other way. 

 

Ok, expanding this beyond the fridge analogy; if I was up on what appears to me to be a deserted island and build a house on it and live there peacefully, only to later find out that the island is privately owned when the owner shows up, the owner of the island has every right in the world to kick me off that island. Doesn't matter if he's using it or not, doesn't matter if he only shows up there once every ten years. It's his property and if he doesn't want me on it, I don't have a right to be there. 

 

I don't know. I just think that when you're imposing on someone else's hospitality, their opinion of what is and isn't reasonable matters a little bit more than yours does.

 

But then this begs the question of, privately owned as in it was newly discovered and they just purchased colonization rights only to find out we're already colonized there, and without the legal system, who then is in the right?

 

No one actually owned the planet. It's not part of any government, save for those already there, and the only thing the "locals" quote unquote have going for them is that they went through legal channels to purchase rights to colonize a system no one knew existed until after it had already been colonized by someone else, and we found it before they did, so are we in the wrong because they bought the rights, or are they in the wrong because they had a rush-to-judgement and bought the rights to colonize the system before finding out themselves if it already had residents?

 

There is no black and white choice in such a scenario. They did purchase the rights, but they did so before finding out that there already were residents. We, hypothetically speaking, are the newcomers, but we settled and colonized a system even before they knew it existed, and possibly the survival of our race depends on the success of the colony.

 

It's a situation where one side gives the other concessions and leave peacefully, they both colonize and try not to fight with each other and share resources and land, because, let's face it, it's a planet, not a small country, or they fight for the right to keep the system for themselves. 

[Wulfram]

If Andromeda didn't have the reapers to periodically reset technological advancement, then I'd have thought the odds would be that we'll be the "primitives"

[BabyPuncher]

Social morality is a false construct that has no true meaning, the only morality that matters is the one you build yourself not the one that may be imprinted on you by society, even more so when that society is our current one.

 

That's very cute.

 

But if you actually believed those words and decided to act upon them, I think you might find that the steel bars of the prison cell you'll be put in are in fact, quite real. You'll find they 'matter' quite a bit.
 

[dragonflight288]

If Andromeda didn't have the reapers to periodically reset technological advancement, then I'd have thought the odds would be that we'll be the "primitives"

 

True.

 

Or they are at the same level of technology as we are at, but they don't use mass effect fields because their society developed technologies without relying on the relays and past cycles to guide how they developed, thus we would be facing complete unknowns technologically, biologically, ans culturally speaking. 

 

Kind of exciting when you think about it. 

[Daemul]

This is why I really don't think it's a good idea to play as military. You just know that Bioware is going to try to make us look like the good guys whilst we're encroaching into people's space, and they will do it in the typical clumsy Bioware manner that no one will take it seriously and which will fall apart under minor scrutiny, and thus accusations of Bioware promoting military imperialism will pop up, and we will be mired in a new Mass Effect controversy. 

 

We really should just be playing as mercs, since as guns for hire we wouldn't be bound by any moral obligations, we could go in there, blow up aliens, and no one will care because hey, we're mercs, people of questionable moral standing, this is the stuff we do. I don't know why Bioware seem to be so intent in getting themselves in trouble, but someone in the office should tell them how much of a terrible idea making the new protagonist part of the military is.  

[BabyPuncher]

This is why I really don't think it's a good idea to play as military. You just know that Bioware is going to try to make us look like the good guys whilst we're encroaching into people's space, and they will do it in the typical clumsy Bioware manner that no one will take it seriously and which will fall apart under minor scrutiny, and thus accusations of Bioware promoting military imperialism will pop up, and we will be mired in a new Mass Effect controversy. 

 

We really should just be playing as mercs, since as guns for hire we wouldn't be bound by any moral obligations, we could go in there, blow up aliens, and no one will care because hey, we're mercs, people of questionable moral standing, this is the stuff we do. I don't know why Bioware seem to be so intent in getting themselves in trouble, but someone in the office should tell them how much of a terrible idea making the new protagonist part of the military is.  

 

That is just ridiculous.

 

You really think BioWare is going to have the player character fighting peaceful, honest, good, aliens who just want to be left alone and not have their home taken from them? No.
 

[Tenebrae]

That's very cute.

 

But if you actually believed those words and decided to act upon them, I think you might find that the steel bars of the prison cell you'll be put in are in fact, quite real. You'll find they 'matter' quite a bit.
 

 

Hardly, you seems to assume that viewing the social morality as insignificant makes you a "bad" guy, it doesn’t, an intelligent mentally balanced person doesn’t need to be told  by others not to be an ******* he should be able to figure it out on his own.

 

But this is a ME:A post not a philosophy post, so let’s keep it focused. (If you really most respond send me a pm).

[BabyPuncher]

Hardly, you seems to assume that viewing the social morality as insignificant makes you a "bad" guy, it doesn’t, an intelligent mentally balanced person doesn’t need to be told  by others not to be an ******* he should be able to figure it out on his own.

 

Quite true. But it's crucial to understand the world is full of unintelligent, mentally unbalanced people.
 

[dragonflight288]

This is why I really don't think it's a good idea to play as military. You just know that Bioware is going to try to make us look like the good guys whilst we're encroaching into people's space, and they will do it in the typical clumsy Bioware manner that no one will take it seriously and which will fall apart under minor scrutiny, and thus accusations of Bioware promoting military imperialism will pop up, and we will be mired in a new Mass Effect controversy. 

 

We really should just be playing as mercs, since as guns for hire we wouldn't be bound by any moral obligations, we could go in there, blow up aliens, and no one will care because hey, we're mercs, people of questionable moral standing, this is the stuff we do. I don't know why Bioware seem to be so intent in getting themselves in trouble, but someone in the office should tell them how much of a terrible idea making the new protagonist part of the military is.  

 

That's a lot of strong statements about a game we barely know anything about and a company that more or less has a very strong reputation for solid story-telling, minus a couple of endings *cough cough.*

 

Actually, I think Blizzard would be a stronger candidate for what you just said with Wings of Liberty and war being the great equalizer, heroic last stands from the military, bravado and all that. 

 

I wouldn't mind playing a merc myself, and for all we know, we may be since we know that the N7 in the preview is NOT the protagonist. 

 

All I'm saying is let's not rush to judgements and assume a controversy exists where none has yet been made. 

[Tenebrae]

This is why I really don't think it's a good idea to play as military. You just know that Bioware is going to try to make us look like the good guys whilst we're encroaching into people's space, and they will do it in the typical clumsy Bioware manner that no one will take it seriously and which will fall apart under minor scrutiny, and thus accusations of Bioware promoting military imperialism will pop up, and we will be mired in a new Mass Effect controversy. 

 

We really should just be playing as mercs, since as guns for hire we wouldn't be bound by any moral obligations, we could go in there, blow up aliens, and no one will care because hey, we're mercs, people of questionable moral standing, this is the stuff we do. I don't know why Bioware seem to be so intent in getting themselves in trouble, but someone in the office should tell them how much of a terrible idea making the new protagonist part of the military is.  

I wouldn’t mind playing a self-serving merc, but i don’t think the current Bioware knows how to do ruthlessness justice.

[dragonflight288]

Quite true. But it's crucial to understand the world is full of unintelligent, mentally unbalanced people.
 

 

And mentally balanced and reasonable people.

 

And people who act out of self-interest, but try to do so in a way that doesn't hurt others.

 

And the people who simply don't care and are total sociopaths. 

 

And lots of sheeple.