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[Master Warder Z_]

*snorts*

[darkiddd]

*snorts*

Folks act like being imperialist space conquerors is a bad thing.

 

That depends on the motives, objectives and a lot of many other things.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Master Warder Z_:  Did you just snort at me sir?  Well, I never... the savagery.

[Daemul]

Honestly the fact people are even groaning about possibly going to war over territory is revealing.

 

I have no problem with going to war over territory, I regularly play the Total War series so I do that all the time, usually just to annoy my enemies(and the Pope in Medieval 2 Total War lol), I just don't want Bioware to try(and fail) to put us on some moral high ground in order to justify us doing so. If we're going to be space conquerors let's not try and sugar coat it please. 

[Master Warder Z_]

@Master Warder Z_: Did you just snort at me sir? Well, I never... the savagery.

From my own interpretation of war from my exprience its a lot more simple; you war because you were ordered to, killed because someone told you that they needed killing, and that's that.

Sure I can wax poetic about losing my soul on the dunes of Fallujah or killing folks that were barely teenagers in Baghdad but that's not why I was there.

I was there because I was told to go, killed because I was told to kill and served because I wanted the job.

That's the mindset I apply to war.

People who theoretically know more of a broader situation and with that perspective can objectively order military deployment.

Its the chain of command every soldier accepts with the job.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Master Warder Z_:  I am not going to question you, I am only saying that your truth doesn't apply to me.  That does not invalidate your truth in my eyes, though mine may be quite invalid in yours.  That is a situation I can neither control, nor affects me in any significant way.

 

I might question however applying such to a situation where you are the one giving the orders and are, theoretically, the person who knows the broader situation.

 

As Shepard, the Warden, Hawke or the Inquisitor - we can decide what souls to sacrifice, what orders to give and what folks are in need of killing.  We are not simply taking orders.

[Master Warder Z_]

*shrugs* I was a guy on the ground with a rifle blowing kids guts out, I wasn't a CO.

I topped out at PFC with honors

So I have no real world experience

[SNascimento]

I have no problem with going to war over territory, I regularly play the Total War series so I do that all the time, usually just to annoy my enemies(and the Pope in Medieval 2 Total War lol), I just don't want Bioware to try(and fail) to put us on some moral high ground in order to justify us doing so. If we're going to be space conquerors let's not try and sugar coat it please. 

Yeah, let's just go all Julius Caesar on them: "We will bring Rome to them not because of the strength of our legions, but because we are right"* 

[Master Warder Z_]

Yeah, let's just go all Julius Caesar on them: "We will bring Rome to them not because of the strength of our legions, but because we are right"*

Damn right

[justafan]

Yeah, let's just go all Julius Caesar on them: "We will bring Rome to them not because of the strength of our legions, but because we are right"* 

 

We must embrace our duty to spread our empire civilization to the savages of the foreign galaxy!  Andromeda Ho!  Vive la Voie Lactée!

[Seboist]

That depends on the motives, objectives and a lot of many other things.

 

If it advances our race's prosperity and advancement, then it is just. If that involves some lesser race(s) going the way of the neanderthal, then so be it. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

If it advances our race's prosperity and advancement, then it is just. If that involves some lesser race(s) going the way of the neanderthal, then so be it. 

Human history disagrees with you on the "As long as it is for our prosperity and advancement, it's just" mindset. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Human history disagrees with you on the "As long as it is for our prosperity and advancement, it's just" mindset.

Eh...

Not really.

[Sartoz]

Maybe we'll find a galaxy where a race is wiping out some other race, bringing it on the verge of the extinction.

Then we could save them from the "bad guys" and, as a token of esteem and gratitude, they will share with us their planets which are almost deserted and half destroyed allowing us to set up our civilization there, so that we could help them in winning the war rebuild their civilization, find new resources, new planets and so on.

 

Here is your setup for being the "good guys" also this time.

 

                                                                                             <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>

 

It's indeed the height of human desperation if a planet with a pre-existing and dead civilization is the one chosen for colonization.  Our own industrialized countries shows us what an advanced civ does to a planet.  That is, rape it of its renewable and finite  resources, creates tons of buried garbage dumps, toxic waste sites and nuclear radiation hard sites to house spent rods that will give off deadly radiation for millennia.

 

From a game design perspactive, I can accept settling in a poor resource planet with the need to look for and mine resources necessary to maintain your tech. That automatically sets you up for the need to explore your neighbourhood and possibly find a better human type planet. In doing so, you quickly find out that this temporary but new home is smack in the middle of a galactic sector that soon comes to be labeled as the Wild West. It may very well be that this Helius Cluster is mineral poor because prior civs mined the readily available resources. Regardless, you now are in a very tough and deadly competition with other space faring races/organizations to find, mine and keep valuable resources.

 

The above scenario has no "bad" guys or "good" guys. It is an environment where survival requires merciless action when necessary and friendly or diplomatic action when it is your race's best and future interests.

 

This allows Bio to create another trilogy..... the main story arc of "serching for a New Eden"...

[Former_Fiend]

If it advances our race's prosperity and advancement, then it is just. If that involves some lesser race(s) going the way of the neanderthal, then so be it. 

 

I seem to recall us spending a good bit of time in the forties fighting a war specifically to oppose that kind of mentality.

[Master Warder Z_]

I seem to recall us spending a good bit of time in the forties fighting a war specifically to oppose that kind of mentality.

Different scenario.

That was applied to humans by humans.

These are scummy aliens.

[Former_Fiend]

Different scenario.

That was applied to humans by humans.

These are scummy aliens.

 

I don't see a difference. I'm not so arrogant as to believe human life has any inherent value over that of another sapient creature. 

 

Human points a gun at me, I'll shoot them in the face. Turian points a gun at me, I'll shoot them in the face. Turian points a gun a defenseless human, I'll shoot the turian in the face. Human points a gun at a defenseless turian, I'll shoot the human in the face. 

 

I don't see any difference between any of those acts. 

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't see a difference

*snorts*

I do obviously.

My own kind obviously take priority over that of a differing species.

Humanity's prosperity, survival and dominance concern me far more then that of anything else when it comes to interaction with alien species.

So by default human life warrants more worth.

[Master Warder Z_]

That attitude to me is entirely warranted considering first contact in me was in all definition of the word: war

[Former_Fiend]

An acknowledgement for the necessity of self defense against hostile forces doesn't have to be coupled with the posturing of racial superiority. 

[Master Warder Z_]

As Admiral Kastanie Drescher famously said when they booted the turian bastards off of their perch at Shanxi capturing the attention of the galaxy by handing the Turians their first major defeat since the Krogan Rebellion during First Contact: "We will not be defeated."

One galaxy over doesn't make a speck of difference to me; Humanity should and will seize its place in the sun.

[Former_Fiend]

With that attitude, we're definitely going to find our place in the sun. After we get thrown into it out of an airlock.

[Master Warder Z_]

*snorts*

The Turians probably thought that up until the second fleet cut their occupation to ribbons.

That was Humanity in its infancy; now? If pushed Humanity can push even harder.

I'm not arguing for some delusional campaign of Genocide, I'm arguing that militarism against aliens should be seen as a viable diplomatic option..
Don't see why they'd need to wait for the aliens to attack them.

Preemptive strikes are one thing the salarians have right.

[azarhal]

They supposedly aren't even native to the cluster. If parts of it are entirely unsettled, and we settle in those areas, are they still in the right?

 

They are native to the Andromeda galaxy and have probably been in the cluster a lot longer than any Milky Way colonists have been.

 

What your are trying to do is say that the Spanish, British and French colonists army were in their right to take over the Americas because only a few pieces of the land had Amerindians on it (who technically were not native either because they immigrated a few millennium ago).

[Former_Fiend]

They are native to the Andromeda galaxy and have probably been in the cluster a lot longer than any Milky Way colonists have been.

 

What your are trying to do is say that the Spanish, British and French colonists army were in their right to take over the Americas because only a few pieces of the land had Amerindians on it (who technically were not native either because they immigrated a few millennium ago).

 

Is worth pointing out that the only reason there were only a "few" pieces of land with the Amerindians on it was because something in the neighborhood of 90% of their population had been wiped out by a plague a couple generations before the Europeans showed up in force.